See also:IRC log,Minutesfrom 5 December,Minutesfrom Afternoon of 6 December
<DanC_csail>RF'sreview (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0033)
(The editor of the minutes notes thathttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0033is actually a note from Len Bullard. [Noah])
Dan: There seems to be a consensus on this, nooutstanding issues or comments, two positive reviews.
<DanC_csail> oops... 0033 isn't RF'sreview...
Noah: I did point someone at this and theydidn't seem to get it. Let's format it as a finding and put it out as adraft.
<DanC_csail>Principle of LeastPower section (http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html#PLP)
<DanC_csail>NDW'sreview
[We are discussing the section only of the DesignIssuesdocument]
<scribe>ACTION: Norm toFormat the section as a finding.
<DanC_csail>Noah's viewin the thread
RESOLUTION: We will publishPrinciple of Least Power as a draft finding and promote it to finding in amonth. Noah will edit it and respond to comments.
<DanC_csail>ACTION: NM toannounce draft finding of principle of least power to www-tag in ~ 2 weeks
<noah> Proposed bumper sticker: GOODPRACTICE: Resource representations should, to the extent practical, beself-describing.
[discussion]
<DanC_csail> stories I'm interested in: *how to introduce a new format to the web, esp an XML format, esp an RDFvocabulary
<DanC_csail> stories I'm interested in: *engineers discovering and implementing a new format
<DanC_csail> stories I'm interested in: *user encounters un-handled media type, chooses an app
<DanC_csail> stories I'm interested in: *designer deploys new media type * designer deploys new XML format * designerdeploys new RDF vocab
<noah> scribenick: noah
NM: I'll scribe while Tim's at thewhiteboard.
TBL: Writes on white board the following:
Underneath Tim then wrote a list of two types of specs
Human readable languages:
Then we have a partial list of machine-processable languagedescriptions
Tim discusses dispatching on MIME type vs. grokkingnamespaces etc.
Noah: should we get into agents that understandapplication/unknownsubtype+xml?
<timbl> Bug: Safari doesn't advertize itwill handle SVG when it gets the SVG plugin.
Norm, Tim and others: yes, but we don't know of any useragents that do
<timbl> Bug: Browsers don't dispatch on+xml eg in unknown application/foobar+xml
DC: Have you intentionally left out downloadingcode as needed?
.... That means that some of the universally shared understanding is "we knowhow to run a Turing machine":
TBL: Yes, this is the download a plugin model. You're right, this is important.
<timbl> scribenick: timbl
DanC: Plain text eg text/n3 does not fall backto text/plain presentation in a browser.
HT: Bug: Firefox never comes back when askedto look for a plugin.
.... Should there be a dispatch point on NS of document element?
<DanC_csail>Go-Karting rush taintedby lack of OpenID for bug reporting about hypertext editing
<DanC_csail> ^ a little story about how Ishould have reported a browser bug but didn't because it's a pain to manageyet another password
<Norm> ack
<Zakim> Norm, you wanted to ask aboutschema validation
Norm: What if schema processing of eg defaultatrributes is necessary?
<Zakim> ht_hotel, you wanted to talk aboutseveral layers of semantics
DanC: So long as the trail by looking up the nsof the doc element leads you to that one way or another, otherwise yourdocument is not grounded on the web.
HT: We start with the infoset ... can we usingspecs define how to get from that to the application data model?
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say there's noone schema for a given media type
HT: The question is can we say whether or notto do things like XInclude and decryption etc.
Noah: There are dangers when your contentdepends on an external document. There is no well defined way of finding aschema.
DanC: The AWWW says the namespace is a good wayto look.
Noah: Maybe we should say don't usedefaults?
Henry: Defaults are not the only problem ...you can get the same problem with types anyway.
<ht_stata> timbl: Please clarify what thefailure scenario is
DanC: We can just use namespce pointers.
Noah: Some people believe that there aremultiple schemas for the same namespace. I think people change schemas afterdocuments have been written so you should be careful and we should warnagainst using them.
Tim: [shock, horror]
Noah: People change schemas when those schemasdo not have effects of changing the document. Those people don't usedefaults. They may point from RDDL document to many schemas, all by differentpeople.
<ht_stata> I find that implausible, becausethe RDDL document _is_ owned by the namespace owner, by construction.
<ht_stata> Noah: People who write a newschema for a namespace they don't own are doing so to gear up for a form ofprocessing they want to do, _not_ changing the 'fundamental meaning' of theoriginal document.
Norm: How does what you said about Xinclude work....
Tim: XHTML has to say it accepts XMLfunctions
Norm talks about document photo'd
<ht_stata> NW: fizbar example
<ht_stata> TBL: That's functional iff itcan be understood as replacing itself with new info, dependent only on itsown contents.
<ht_stata> NM: What about DSig?
<ht_stata> TBL: Some uses are functional,some [those which point over to the signed part] are not.
<ht_stata> NM: Suppose we go there, will you have to opt in on an instance-by-instance basis, or will pre-existingdocuments get captured?
<ht_stata> ... It would be a pain to haveto mark everything going forward.
<ht_stata> TBL: Not a big problem.
<ht_stata> NM: We encourage apps to use thedefinitive interpretation, specs to say they depend on it.
<ht_stata> DC: You shouldn't have to optin.
<DanC_csail> I misspoke; yes, for stufflike xml:base, you should have to opt in. sigh.
<ht_stata> NW: The HTML spec could say that<PRE> blocks function interpretation?
<ht_stata> TBL: Yes, <PRE> isfunction-opaque, all else is function-transparent.
How to say in a schema that one can implement functions.
<ht_stata> ... RDF has the same sort ofissue. . .
<ht_stata> ... Don't interpret it within<PRE>
<ht_stata> DC: Or within BLOCKQUOTE.
<ht_stata> HST: I like BLOCKQUOTE betterthan PRE.
<ht_stata> NW: So xmllint would no longerbe conformant, because it does XInclude all or nothing, independent ofenclosing namespace.
<ht_stata> TBL: Norm, is this makingsense?
Norm: I see a consident picture now whcih ismaking sense, which is new.
<ht_stata> NW: I see a coherent picturenow, which I didn't see before -- whether I like it or not, I'm not sure.
<ht_stata>ACTION: Norm,with help from Henry, to produce a draft finding on XML functions inJanuary.
[Break reconvenes]
<Roy>http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
Roy: The entire document is new. Some of thewords and phrases were recycled.
<noah> Discussing:http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
It now focusses on metadata and containers in general,rather than just messages received by the server.
So for example, this would now apply to an embedded bit ofSVG inside an XML document.
I have looked at the various ways in which metadata comes inand is applied.
It doesn't say what a web server should do.
<Roy> RFC3023Charset-21
HT: I now understand this better. I wanted tocome back to the 6.3 example, the misconfiguration of metadata hints area.
This is not what I expected ... I thought Janet's UA wouldsend accept:text/css, and the server would 404, or rather 408 (no acceptableform).
NOTE FROM EDITOR OF THE MINUTES: I think you meant statuscode 406, not 408, in this discussion. 408 is a Request Timeout. [Noah]
HT: Why would an HTML agent not fetch CSS?
RF: Because it is one which doesn't grokCSS.
<DanC_csail> PROPOSED: thathttp://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.htmlof 5 Dec, plus edits in response to Baker, reviewed by ?SOMEBODY, addressesputMediaType-38, contentTypeOverride-24.
HT: That is not obvious, needs explanation asit is not clear to the reader.
DanC: For example, we could imagine animaginary news language, maybe.
HT: Or we could talk about 408 no acceptableform response.
DanC: It isn't usual to have the type attributeaffect the accept header.
.... It is normal to send accept: for everything one understands, no?
RF: Yes, but optionally, one can trim thethings things in the metadata.
.... It would be better if Stuart did not misconfigure the server, andchanged the style sheet language for some reason.
That is, the title of the section should be changed.
<Roy> 6.3 example would be better if itdoesn't say misconfiguration, and instead Stuart replaces one stylesheetlanguage with another.
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to discussprocessing vs. interpretation
<Roy> 6.3 should also describe 4xx case ofcontent negotiation with accept.
Noah: I had sent a response to Roy on anintermediate version of his draft. Overall, this is much improved. I likethat it now explains that different agents can process the same documentdifferently. However, in 3.1, it still talks about "processing". I wouldprefer "the mediatype gives the preferred interpretation" as opposed to "themedia type tells you a particular way you must process". We shouldn't tellpeople what to do.... we should say "this is music" not "play this".
Tim: Not preferred ... intended ordefinitive.
<Roy> NM: "The media type indicates theintended interpretation for a representation".
Tim: I like the word "interpretation" .
RF: I ran out of new an interesting examples --send your suggestions!
<noah> So, I'm suggesting that in many ofthe places where it refers to "intended processing", I would prefer "intendedinterpretation".
RF: I added some more teeth to the suggestions, with SHOULD and MUST... we should look at those probably.
<noah> I'm fine with Tim's suggestion thatthose should in fact be "Definititive Interpretation".
The previous finding said the findings MUST not workagainst eth web architecture.
DanC: I am OK with that.
Tim: Me too,
Ed: How do we tell what the most authoritativewhen there is a clash?
DanC: The readers should pick the mostauthoritative. If there is anconsistency they won't notice.
Ed: In the summary of the key points, it saysthe processing should be stopped.
RF: No.. it says should be detected andreported... Doesn't say what happens to the processing.
DanC: It is not an error to ignore the lessauthoratitive.
Ed: That makes sense.
<DanC_csail> ... esp point 3
<DanC_csail> RF: I'll think about that andsee if I can find better words.
<DanC_csail> RF: let's look at theadmonitions in 4.2....
RF: It should say in the third bullet "when themedia type is unknown".
<DanC_csail> 1st bullet in 4.2
DanC: Suggest you put the two SHOULD NOTs atthe end. You mean really don't send anything if the media type is unknown? Not text/plain or application/octet-stream?
RF: Yes.
HT: Yes, importantly, as if it says somethingthen that stops the client from being able to sniff, etc.
<Zakim> ht_stata, you wanted to ask abouttext/plain as a form of protection
HT: Section 5
RF: All the charset issues are fixed in Apachenow, but only now.
<DanC_csail> 'Example: Formatspecifications cannot redefine authoritative metadata' inhttp://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html#metadata-hints
HT: In 5, you say "Example: Formatspecifications cannot redefine authoritative metadata" but I think we haveallowed XIncldue to break this rule.
<DanC_csail> (I'm looking upDerivedResources-43 ... wondering if we decided it...)
Tim: XInclude should not have to happen again,what it does is beneath the hood when it expands a document as sourcecode.
<Roy> Sec 5: should say that someapplications (e.g., Xinclude) will disregard metadata on purpose and that isokay.
<DanC_csail> PROPOSED: thathttp://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.htmlof 5 Dec, plus edits in response to Baker, reviewed by ?SOMEBODY, addressesputMediaType-38, contentTypeOverride-24.
<DanC_csail> RF: I'm not done with the mostrelevant example.
[back to section 5]
RF: SMIL is an example of how o do it wrong.
VQ: SMIL 2.1 is due to go to REC next week.
HT: Stop it at this stage?
<DanC_csail>http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/PR-SMIL2-20050927/
DanC: Proposed rec request in Septhttp://www.w3.org/TR/2005/PR-SMIL2-20050927/smil21.html.
7.4.1
<DanC_csail>http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/PR-SMIL2-20050927/smil21.html#extended-media-object-edef-ref
NM: Bzzt
DanC: It was the speech recognition group weinvited.
RF: And they fixed their spec.
<ht_stata>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Jul/0009
<DanC_csail> draft commenthttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Dec/0019.html
<Roy> The Apache directive is"AllowOverride FileInfo"
<Roy> and it is present in all Apacheversions
<Roy>http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/core.html#allowoverride
<DanC_csail> draft commenthttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Dec/0019.html
Norm: in favor
<Roy> Add the Apache example ofAllowOverride to the suggestions in section 4.2
HT: We should add that we will work withpeopleto fix the server probklems
.... This is absoluetely NOT something to be done piecemeal one spec at atime.
This would confuse our users!
<ht_stata>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Jul/0011.html
<DanC_csail> comment sent:http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0035.html
<DanC_csail> phpth. screwed up the subjectheading
<DanC_csail> and neglected to cite the newversion of the fingind.
<ht_stata> That's the message whereLanphier asks for most of what Roy is about to give himm.
RESOLUTION: to sendhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Dec/0019.htmlmodulo editorial work and adding a section number.
ACTION DanC edit and send onhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Dec/0019.html
<ht_stata>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Dec/0000.html
HT: In december 2003, Ian sent a new draftfinding which PH said seems to address the issues in the group's response.
Tim: It was sent to the WG not to the commentslist.
DanC's action discharged.http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0035.html
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk aboutsupertypes
Noah: Going back to Henry's comment aboutXInclude. I don't think XInclude is special. Rather, it's an example ofnoticing that types often have supertypes. XML is also Unicode text. So, Idon't think XInclude contradicts the finding. E.g. an XML document is asubtype of Unicode, rdf/xml is a subtype of xml. I could treat it as anylevel -- I'm not overridin it.
<ht_stata> I can't find any furtherdiscussion of the TAG comment about MediaObject/@type after a confusedexchange ending athttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2004Jan/0001.html
Noah: I think you can ask to look at an RDFdocument as a unicode string.
<DanC_csail> (norm, we have 20 minutes andshrinking for ns8. If I make a point of order to move on, are you inclined to2nd?)
<scribe>ACTION: RF toProduce a new version of the findinghttp://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.htmlby the end of the year
We decide to have a short lunch beforeNamepsaceDocument-8