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I've always wanted to visit the Pebble Beach Concours but now they have given an award to an incorrect replication of a car I know a lot about and thus like other shows they don't have the knowledge necessary to get everything right which is vital (they guess or let historically incorrect modifications through) if you are going to position yourself as the world's best concours event.

http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/pages/5196/index.htm said:
I've sent this email toentries@pebblebeachconcours.net and removed the persons name I addressed it to as it's probably not their fault:).
my email said:
I do not believe you are the right person to contact but I do not know who is and I have to make a comment on the 1921 Alfa Romeo G1 that has been incorrectly turned into something no G1 ever was, a race car. This car is the last surviving of 52 G1's that all were sold to Australia and the first car manufactured when Alfa changed their name to Alfa Romeo, thus the first Alfa Romeo.

No G1's were ever raced, they were tourers or limousines. Below I will quote from two knowledgeable books and feel strongly that historically incorrect modifications like this should not be part of such a supposed quality car show as Pebble Beach, in fact in my opinion it should have been denied entry until returned to its correct form. In fact it was given an award (3rd place in Class V-1: Prewar Open Wheel Racing) which is a terrible injustice to the Alfa Romeo community and the 4th place entrant.


Referring to the book: Alfa Romeo a history by Peter Hull and Roy Slater; Chapter Three
"Surprisingly, perhaps, the first car designed from the start as an Alfa Romeo was not a sporting model, but a huge luxury side valve six cylinder limousine known as the G1. It was not destined to achieve any lasting fame, nor were there any notably advanced features in its distinctly Edwardian design"

It then goes on to discuss racing of he 40/60 and 20/30, never the G1.

Referring to the book: Guide to the identification of Alfa Romeo cars by Maurizio Tabucchi; 1920
"G1
Chassis for: Tourer, Limousine, Roadster.
Initial conceived by Giuseppe Merosi with a 6597cc engine, which was slightly reduced in cubic capacity and its power increased using different camshaft timing. The suggestion to produce this car, but more than that the evolution of the engine to use overhead valves for use in competition, came from Enzo Ferrari, who had for some time been an Alfa Romeo works driver and saw considerable racing development possibilities in this project. It was Alfa's intention that the G1 should be sold alongside the 20-30 E.S. Sport, but its high class, cubic capacity and consequent notable fuel consumption which was unsustainable so soon after the war, were obstacles that meant production was limited to 52 cars, all of them sold in Australia."

Therefore one can accurately say no G1 ever raced, that was the role of the 40/60 and 20/30 and ALL G1's were exported to Australia and did not compete officially. Also one could say that the previous restoration to a Spider form was already pushing the sportiness that probably (but I have no proof of this) never existed on any G1.

What I am hoping this email can do is:
1. Rectify the award situation,
2. Encourage the owner to return this car to its previous correct for a G1 form, and suggest he purchase an ALFA 20/30 if he wants to run a race car. I have been informed by the person who did this modification that this is a simple bolt on process.

I feel for Pebble Beach to maintain it's position as one of the top Concours D' Elegance shows this mistake has to be rectified. Please note it took me no longer than 15 minutes of research to prove that the only surviving G1 Alfa Romeo has been treated with an incredible lack of historical correctness. This is a extremely important car for Alfisti all over the world but particularly for Australia, but yes the owner can do what they like with their car, but should never be awarded for it.

I do realise that the judges cannot be experts on every make and model presented but I would have expected it to be easy to find a knowledgable person on the very first Alfa Romeo. A simple Google search for Alfa G1 confirms it's correct place in automotive history.

Regards
One wonders what other awards have been handed out that should never have been ... sigh ...:(.
Pete
 

Disillusioned with Pebble Beach Concours

49K views 173 replies 38 participants last post by oz3litre  
Discussion starter
22,903 posts· Joined 2003
#1· (Edited)
I've always wanted to visit the Pebble Beach Concours but now they have given an award to an incorrect replication of a car I know a lot about and thus like other shows they don't have the knowledge necessary to get everything right which is vital (they guess or let historically incorrect modifications through) if you are going to position yourself as the world's best concours event.

http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/pages/5196/index.htm said:
I've sent this email toentries@pebblebeachconcours.net and removed the persons name I addressed it to as it's probably not their fault:).
my email said:
I do not believe you are the right person to contact but I do not know who is and I have to make a comment on the 1921 Alfa Romeo G1 that has been incorrectly turned into something no G1 ever was, a race car. This car is the last surviving of 52 G1's that all were sold to Australia and the first car manufactured when Alfa changed their name to Alfa Romeo, thus the first Alfa Romeo.

No G1's were ever raced, they were tourers or limousines. Below I will quote from two knowledgeable books and feel strongly that historically incorrect modifications like this should not be part of such a supposed quality car show as Pebble Beach, in fact in my opinion it should have been denied entry until returned to its correct form. In fact it was given an award (3rd place in Class V-1: Prewar Open Wheel Racing) which is a terrible injustice to the Alfa Romeo community and the 4th place entrant.


Referring to the book: Alfa Romeo a history by Peter Hull and Roy Slater; Chapter Three
"Surprisingly, perhaps, the first car designed from the start as an Alfa Romeo was not a sporting model, but a huge luxury side valve six cylinder limousine known as the G1. It was not destined to achieve any lasting fame, nor were there any notably advanced features in its distinctly Edwardian design"

It then goes on to discuss racing of he 40/60 and 20/30, never the G1.

Referring to the book: Guide to the identification of Alfa Romeo cars by Maurizio Tabucchi; 1920
"G1
Chassis for: Tourer, Limousine, Roadster.
Initial conceived by Giuseppe Merosi with a 6597cc engine, which was slightly reduced in cubic capacity and its power increased using different camshaft timing. The suggestion to produce this car, but more than that the evolution of the engine to use overhead valves for use in competition, came from Enzo Ferrari, who had for some time been an Alfa Romeo works driver and saw considerable racing development possibilities in this project. It was Alfa's intention that the G1 should be sold alongside the 20-30 E.S. Sport, but its high class, cubic capacity and consequent notable fuel consumption which was unsustainable so soon after the war, were obstacles that meant production was limited to 52 cars, all of them sold in Australia."

Therefore one can accurately say no G1 ever raced, that was the role of the 40/60 and 20/30 and ALL G1's were exported to Australia and did not compete officially. Also one could say that the previous restoration to a Spider form was already pushing the sportiness that probably (but I have no proof of this) never existed on any G1.

What I am hoping this email can do is:
1. Rectify the award situation,
2. Encourage the owner to return this car to its previous correct for a G1 form, and suggest he purchase an ALFA 20/30 if he wants to run a race car. I have been informed by the person who did this modification that this is a simple bolt on process.

I feel for Pebble Beach to maintain it's position as one of the top Concours D' Elegance shows this mistake has to be rectified. Please note it took me no longer than 15 minutes of research to prove that the only surviving G1 Alfa Romeo has been treated with an incredible lack of historical correctness. This is a extremely important car for Alfisti all over the world but particularly for Australia, but yes the owner can do what they like with their car, but should never be awarded for it.

I do realise that the judges cannot be experts on every make and model presented but I would have expected it to be easy to find a knowledgable person on the very first Alfa Romeo. A simple Google search for Alfa G1 confirms it's correct place in automotive history.

Regards
One wonders what other awards have been handed out that should never have been ... sigh ...:(.
Pete
 
#2·
I've always wanted to visit the Pebble Beach Concours but now they have given an award to an incorrect replication of a car I know a lot about and thus like other shows they don't have the knowledge necessary to get everything right which is vital (they guess or let historically incorrect modifications through) if you are going to position yourself as the world's best concours event.
I've sent this email toentries@pebblebeachconcours.net and removed the persons name I addressed it to as it's probably not their fault:).
One wonders what other awards have been handed out that should never have been ... sigh ...:(.
Pete
Dunno about last surviving? correct me if I am wrong but this car is different to the one we have here in Australia? And I don't think I would say it is that far from original. Other than not having the big headlights and fenders the major structure of the car is essentially the same as the one I saw at Phillip Island a few years back.

The link is to the Pebble Beach car and the pic below is of the one in Melbourne

Photos: Pebble Beach Tour d’Elegance – - Santa Cruz Sentinel Media Center
 

Attachments

#5·
I don't know what Wikipedia says re the G1 but then again Wiki is hardly a world expert on Alfas or anything for that matter, given that postings on Wiki are those of anyone.

The other and historically relevant point which Pete makes, and I agree with, is that sadly the current owner of this car has bastardised its historical appearance and for what to win at Pebble Beach. How shallow. Sad to say that Pebble Beach accepted it at face value without doing a due diligence into the provenance of the car. Personally, my view is that the current owner either has no understanding/appreciation of what the G1 was-represented or is plain stupid.

Hopefully he either gets bored with it and sells it or alternatively restores it back to its proper appearance.

Mind you, as far as I am concerned Pebble Beach is a show for the uber rich and ultimately has nothing to do with cars that most people can either relate to. It is a show based on one thing - money !
 
#6·
I don't know what Wikipedia says re the G1
Well, I quoted it in my post and provided the link. Since you missed it, wikepedia says this "The G1 was used also in motorsport and it won its own class at Coppa de Garda."


but then again Wiki is hardly a world expert on Alfas or anything for that matter, given that postings on Wiki are those of anyone.
Actually wikepedia is about equal to the Encyclopedia Britannica in accuracy.Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica - CNET News . I see no reason to suspect they are wrong here.

The other and historically relevant point which Pete makes, and I agree with, is that sadly the current owner of this car has bastardised its historical appearance and for what to win at Pebble Beach. How shallow.
Maybe, or maybe that's just the way he want's his car to look. It is his car, and some people feel that "Sporting blood has run through the veins of every Alfa Romeo produced over the last **100** !! years"

Personally, my view is that the current owner either has no understanding/appreciation of what the G1 was-represented or is plain stupid.
He could be stupid, but I doubt it. I think it's more likely he just likes it that way.

Hopefully he either gets bored with it and sells it or alternatively restores it back to its proper appearance.
Eventually someone else will own it. If that owner, and perhaps it will be you wishes to change it, more power too them. Until then, this guy can do what he wants with his car, and the folks that run Pebble Beach can let any car in they want. I find this car interesting, so I am glad it was in the show. If it wasn't I wouldn't have seen it.
 
#7· (Edited)
Is the class it was entered in at pebble beach, i.e. racing hx, for the car that is entered or for the brand / model in general. For wiki to say some G1 at some point was raced but does not list chasis # etc then even if true has only minimal impact( certainly having some reference that they were raced is important) on this discussion. If THIS car had no racing pedigree and was bodied differently up until the current owner changed it and there is no hx of it having been raced previously then the award is crap and undermines the credibility of the concours and its judges. As per pete's posts that seems to be the case with this car. We all agree in principle that one can do what they want with their own car but if it is one of only a couple left in existence and has such historical significance for the brand it should be as original as it can and then enter it and be judged for what it truly is. Now if this car was a factory race car built as such from birth but never raced. If it is represented as an "example" of those cars that had been raced then I could see how it could be judged and awarded the prize it was.
 
#9· (Edited)
If I knew how to contact Wiki I would. Here are the results of Italian races:Grand-Prix and races 1918-1940

1921 Circuitous Del Garda (Coppa de Garda) was won by a Bugatti

And in 1920 Alfa was racing the faster 40/60 and still in 1921 as Campari won the Circuito do Mugello in a 40/60, and in 1923 they won the Targa Florio with an RL.

We have to remember that the G1 was an utter failure, a limousine just after WW1 and did not sell, hence all were exported to Australia and I imagine Alfa Romeo thought, great, got rid of that mistake. Not long after, or before even, Melosi was replaced or Jano turned up and got the attention and Melosi soon left.

The 20/30 and 40/60 were better cars, hence why they kept racing them. I'll check "Alfa Romeo a history by Peter Hull and Roy Slater" again.
Pete
 
#11· (Edited)
Sure will do, but you are missing an important point. Australia was sold limosusines and tourers. Even the Spider da Corsa body it was was originally restored with was probably stretching the truth as I doubt (but have no proof) that any were actually built originally with this body. You don't drive sportscars in the outback over here:).

Note also that it is hard to do any racing when hidden in a shed for 25 years:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33320 said:
But ...
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33320 said:
It also started Alfa Romeo's motorsport heritage, finishing first in its category in its first outing, in the Coppa de Garda.
But yes I will check.
Pete
 
#15· (Edited)
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/784624-post2.html said:
But to me the first car could be a 20-30, certainly looks identical to Ugo's car other than wire wheels (?).

AND more importantly the rear suspension clearly shows the first car to be a 20-30 as the TWO parallel leaf springs are not visible as they would be on a G1. See pictures of chassis 6018.

Identical rear suspension to the second photo fromhttp://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/784779-post5.html, which shows the 1921 Targa team with the first car now being Ugo's 20-30. Note wire wheels also.
Pete
 

Attachments

#16· (Edited)
This photo is interesting ...

... not sure if this is a G1 or 20/30. What do you think?

From:1923 Alfa Romeo 20 30 HP Giuseppe Marosi Race Photo UA4640 P36BC8 | eBay

[EDIT:]Finally managed to find this page on that site and the photo is labelled: 1923 Alfa Romeo 20 30 HP Giuseppe Marosi Race Photo ua4640-P36BC8. Found I was able to zoom in and definitely no two leaf springs at the rear.[/EDIT]

Pete
 

Attachments

#17·
Hi Pete, I was talking with a couple of my alfisti mates this morning about this matter. My mate Kim reminded me that David Wright wrote about the G1's history in his book "Alfas Down Under, part 1". Not sure if you have a copy of this or not, but I do and can check what he wrote about it later when home. If it is not in this book, there may be something about it in Evan Green's book on Alfas.

However, from memory, the G1 was found laying derelict on a farm (possibly chicken farm ??) out in western queensland, the engine being used to drive a pump. The car was rescued and correctly restored, and lived in Queensland, possibly also NSW.

It was later sold and somehow Neville Chriton owner of Ateco, the Alfa Importers/distributors for Australia ended up buying it. He had it on display at Philip Island as a part of the display for the Alfa celebrations. But and I can only assume he must have sold it thereafter after he lost the Alfa concession, as in an AROCA magazine, the comment was made he had the car on display at an Alfa showroom as he had no where else to store the car.

My point in all the above is that quite clearly this car, has no international competition history and therefore to suggest by putting on a fake body and passing it off as an ex race car is false. For Pebble Beach therefore to accept it equally as such without checking equally is dubious, especially in giving it an award.

History is being made up, by the current owner and by Pebble Beach which undoubtedly could influence its value. But the problem here is that its real value, is that it remains to date the only example of the first Alfa, and it should have its correct body on it.

To desicrate it with a fake body and fake history in a sense (the principle) is akin to the curators at the Louvre putting a moustache and a set of Raybans on the Mona Lisa and passing it off as Pop Art.

While it has been suggested it is the owner's right to do as he please's I actually disagree in this instance. No he doesn't have such a right to detrimentally affect a historically important vehicle by fakery. In truth there should be legislation preventing such changes, much as there is heritage legislation preventing owners of historically important buildings damaging, or changing the historical nature of them. I know as my country property is heritage listed and was nominated for the National Estate. I am limited in law from what I can do to my property and I both accept this and am glad such laws prevent such change.

I realise of course that to protect cars (and on an international scale) is probably unworkable/not feasible, but nethertheless pressure could be brought on the owner of this vehicle by Alfisti world wide to both encourage or shame him into returning it to its correct state. Taking away his award at Pebble Beach could be a first step.

Greg in context to Wiki, I disagree with your views there, Wiki while perfectly ok, is only as good as the information it is provided with by any member of the public. I know from first hand experience that it can contain factually incorrect information. There is an entry in it about my mother's former home (schloss Protzel) in Brandenburg, Germany. My mother has written about her life there and that of her family ofthere in a book she published, which relates the correct history. I contacted Wiki and they advised me they couldn't change or do anything about this. Hence my point re it, garbage in garbage out.
 
#18·
Hi Pete, I was talking with a couple of my alfisti mates this morning about this matter. My mate Kim reminded me that David Wright wrote about the G1's history in his book "Alfas Down Under, part 1". Not sure if you have a copy of this or not,
I think I do have a copy, but while I understand and support your views I'm presently trying to confirm that no G1 competed. They wouldn't have in Australia, pretty sure of that. Back then Alfa Romeo or ALFA would have no history in this country, sporting or otherwise.
Pete
 
#20·
Found this entry on line and so to try to be a little more accurate in the information thought it could be helpful to the discussion.

The History of the "Aussie" Alfa Romeo

The history of the last remaining Alfa Romeo G1 is as colourful as the company that give birth it. Chassis 6018 was imported new into Australia in 1921 and was sold, for #850, to a Queensland businessman who, soon afterwards, was declared bankrupt.

Since he had seen his financial crash coming, he hid the car to keep it out of the hands of his creditors.Then, three years on, he had the misfortune to die and the G1 remained hidden for 25 years, apparently holding up one corner of a shed in the Queensland outback.

Then it was discovered by a couple of young jackaroos who decided it would make a fine 'paddock bomb' for rounding up cattle, chasing kangaroos and all the stuff that blokes do on farms. Eventually they managed to hit a tree and the damaged car was towed back to the farm where it was used to power a water pump. With its massive torque at low engine speed, it was ideal for the job and the work ensured that the engine remained in excellent condition even if the rest of the car was brutalised.

In 1964 it was retired from pump duty and rescued by Alfa Romeo enthusiasts. The following year the car was bought by Ross Flewell-Smith who, against the advice of some experts who thought the car unrestorable, began to rebuild it, an exercise that took ten years. In this Herculean task he was helped by the fact that he discovered a second G1, a wreck, which supplied many of the parts that were missing. Most of the body was missing and, after experimenting with various styles, Flewell-Smith took advice from Luigi Fusi who was then curator of Alfa Romeo's museum.

Flewell-Sinith's rebuild was good enough to win the 1977 Queensland Vintage Car Concours and to win the 1978 Australian Mile Miglia memorial run. In an historic race at Lakeside it was clocked at 86 mph, remarkable performance for a 1921 car, so remarkable, in fact, it was black-flagged for being so quick!

In 1995, Flewell-Smith sold this car he had nicknamed 'Milly' from the 'Milan' on the engine black, to Julian Sterling who commissioned a restoration to his own exacting standards. All worn parts were replaced with specially-made components built regardless of cost. New tyres were supplied by Michelin, made from the original 1920s moulds, costing $6,000 for the set. The restoration was undertaken up to a standard, not down to a price, and the work was described in the 1998 edition of the Classic Car Yearbook as 'breathtaking'.

Following a rationalization of Julian Sterling's car collection, the car was bought by Neville Crichton, the governing director of the new Australian Alfa Romeo importer, Ateco Automotive Pty Ltd.

Following his purchase of the Alfa Romeo G1, Neville Crichton undertook a full restoration of the G1 to return it to full running order. The quality of this restoration was rewarded in 2005 when the car was entered under stewardship of Australia's leading classic car journalist, David Berthon, in the World's most important classic car event, the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elgance and the Third in Class Trophy, beating more than 60 classic Alfa Romeos from around the world, including seven cars entered by Alfa Romeo's own museum.
 
#24·
#31·
#37· (Edited)
My respect for Pebble Beach Concours is back

I've sent this email to Pebble Beach to IMO close this questioning of the award for 6018 as a race car:
my email said:
My research has discovered that I disagree with Luigi Fusi in his book "Alfa Romeo - All Cars since 1910" where he states: "two G1 cars took part in the Garda Cup on December 7th 1920, both ranking first <<ex-aequo>> with other cars in the same category." (referencehttp://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/4768610-post26.html as I do not own a copy of this book) Therefore I have some reference books saying the G1 never raced and Fusi's book saying it did, but it is likely that Fusi is more correct than the others (?).

Therefore I remove my questioning of why the G1 was awarded a third place in class V1. Yes chassis 6018 never, ever raced but some did and thus the current owner is historically correct for the model, and of course your judges are right.

I appologise for any time wasted and hope any of the information I've discovered and documented here is of use to the current owner:http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-events/239874-disillusioned-pebble-beach-concours.html

I will share the Fugi reference with Craig, the restorer.

Interestingly also I've been informed that many parts of another G1 have been found and maybe soon we may have another restored G1. I wonder if these parts came from the wreck that Ross Flewell-Smith used to restore 6018?
Still a dam shame that she has been converted to a race car, but no permanent harm done:).
Pete
 
#38·
Still a dam shame that she has been converted to a race car, but no permanent harm done:).
Pete
It is even more of a shame that it is no longer in Australia where it belongs and has always lived. I still don't understand the guy's motivation for turning it into something it never was. One thing this discussion has also done is to further cement Australia's place in the history of Alfa Romeo. It is difficult to believe that all the rest of the 50 or 52 G1s imported here have completely disappeared. There must be the remains of a few lurking somewhere undiscovered, you would think. How exciting would it be to come across one of them?
 
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