Hiya :) Noticed your interest inOnline creation, was wondering if you would care to go over the latest developments on the talk page. Thanks :) --Thoric21:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I updated a little, and it still isn't 100% accurate, but is on its way. Unfortunately I am not interested in the topic enough to research it much more. Everything I fixed on it so far was either obvious or else findable in a few minutes. As a result, I can't do much about any of the other stuff on the talk page other than what I wrote about. I simply am not into diku derivatives. As for the entire article itself, it definitely is extremely selective as to what's on the page. I know there are far more systems of this type, simply because it's not a terribly revolutionary thing. Reading stuff like that (at what's supposed to be an encyclopedic article) just makes me more certain that I'm not gonna be doing diku-ish stuff any time soon.Atari2600tim07:49, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I find that a little curious given your interest in InterMUD. IMC was developed originally under Diku-derivatives. The online creation article should be expanded to cover the online creation systems of other MUD bases as well... mush, muck, moo, etc. If your interest lies in another MUD family, then maybe you can expand it in that direction. --Thoric16:06, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• nods* I thought it was very weird that a general term was the name of the article, after having read it. The article is solely about one project, and is not much more than a vanity page, and not especially encyclopedic or even accurate.Atari2600tim17:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nods... my interest lies in setting the record straight. Locke is trying to claim that all Diku-family OLCs are based on his OLC (even though he admits that they "stole the ideas from Hidden Worlds MUD"), and has wildly varying claims and dates. I told him several times that I based my online building off of a system I used on a MUD in 1993 (Mozart MUD), and developed my own for Merc in 1994. He claimed that his OLC system wasn't publically released until 1995, and made it sound like they didn't start working on it until sometime in 1994... and the interface and the way the code works are quite a bit different --- yet Locke insists that Mozart's online building had to be based on NiMUD OLC, even though it clearly predates it. When I point this out, he switches his claims around to trying to say that they were working on this OLC system back in 1991/1992... though he says he first started MUDding in 1993. --Thoric18:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The flaming stuff was pretty funny. It kinda goes against all that dating stuff. If he was in high school in the 90's, then why does he sound 12 today? :P

I don't think he noticed your, umm... comments ;) I don't know where that all thatflaming stuff* came from... If he really is "Locke", NiMUD developer, then he has to be at least 20-something. Based on his resumé, it appears he is more of a designer than a programmer. It seems that "Surreal" did most of the programming. --Thoric01:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if it actually is him or not. About half of the false claims that he makes are actually against Locke or NiMUD, and about half are in favor. For example, the copyright message where this person tries to make NiMUD sound not user-friendly with the licensing, and the undecided position of whether he likes or hates you. If the comments you refer to are the asterisk links to fallacies, then it would seem that he did notice, because when he deleted the quote about Kyndig being a fascist moronhere, that included a link toStraw_man, and with such a short section that he deleted, it seems impossible to have overlooked it.Atari2600tim11:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am 'editing' this page as a reply. Please pardon any transgression in normal protocol procedures for this type of action, I am a newbie with Wikipedia. I am the webmaster for mudmagic.com, Calvin Ellis, known as 'Kyndig' as a net alias. I am deeply upset at the continued aggression this individual is showing towards my works. I would like for the entire mention of my wife, website, company and if possible net alias in this issue removed. The mention of lawsuit and 'hater' that the olc developer refers to was taken out of context. My lawsuit was directed against his harrasment and personal threats, nothing was mentioned in regards to lawsuit against copyright or any similiar issues. His continued mentions of my spouse and our dealings concerned me enough that I contacted authorities for a course of action to be taken. I removed his login ability on the website, and prevented him from emailing us through a filter on the website. This is the recommended course by Police in the US. They provided an additional courtesy of monitoring my family while I am deployed. (yes, in Baghdad, no I don't have seperate accounts; and no I most certainly do not pay my wife to work on the site). All of this information however should not be discussed on a public site such as this. This is my professional hobby and is a passionate focus. I am a web developer and old mudder. Please let me know a recommended course of action to have the abusive nature of that users writings on this acclaimed website removed. If I need to supply an email contact, that would be a preferred method of future correspondance. Thank you -Kyndig

I deleted some stuff from the discussion page, it was getting far too long for such an insignificant article.Wikipedia:Article_size suggests that pages be like 1/3 of what that talk page became. Most of the info on it was either outdated or questions that were answered, so no point in it being there. I also got rid of the personal stuff, since you have absolutely nothing to do with his licensing. As far as I can tell, his confusion regarding copyrights didn't come from you or from any docs on your web site. You can feel free to edit (including delete) pretty much anything on Wikipedia, aside from the main page and a few others that are read-only. They always say tobe bold! with editing. But I understand that since it's about you, you most likely don't wanna be the one to delete it, so I checked for stuff about you and cleared it out. Luckily none of it was of any significance, so this won't be controversial or anything.Atari2600tim

However, there is a history thing that Wikipedia keeps, and I can't do anything about getting rid of the history, so someone could easily click on history and see what was typed earlier. It would be best for such requests to come from you, as you're the person it's about, so I'm not gonna post any requests on your behalf. There are some pages for requesting various things from the admin, but since I haven't been in your situation yet, I haven't had to figure out where to do it yet. I would go on to IRC at irc.freenode.net #wikipedia and ask in there, it's always full and has wikipedia-knowing people on it. To my understanding, they're fairly quick on obvious things (like credit card details getting posted), but take longer for other stuff, presumably to vote or something (I haven't read up on all the arbitration policies). Luckily, all the stuff about you was over the top enough (that you're Hitler-like, a sociopath, that being in the military is somehow bad, etc) that I don't think they're gonna have to do any admin discussion or anything.Atari2600tim13:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also don't worry about protocol and stuff regarding this page right here (the User_talk:____ pages), since this is counted as a personal page for discussing stuff with me. With articles, there is different protocols, but do whatever you want on my own page. I'm fairly new myself too.Atari2600tim13:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That Eggster guy sounds like he's Locke. BTW, NiMUD was not publically released until August, 1994 (unless reliable documentation can be shown to prove otherwise). --Thoric17:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted Eggster's changes and put a note of why. I'd also like to mention for the record that on July 9th, 2005, Locke retracted his claims that SMAUG contained NiMUD code:

   From: Herbert E Gilliland III <heg@andrew.cmu.edu>     To: derek@idirect.comSubject: No Subject   Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:31:50 -0400 (EDT)I make no claims to the ownership of your software.  Have a good day.  H. Gilliland (herb3@cmu.edu)    | mmm. sauerbraten.http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~heg  | sauerbraten.sourceforge.net                                  |

--Thoric18:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These are just time-consuming, and it'd be nice if other people would do some of these.

• NiMUD-
  • This software is based on Merc 2 or 2.2, and was described by its author as being released in 2002. According to the Merc article, Merc 1 was released on Dec 18, 1992, and Merc 2 came in 1993. Either NiMUD was based on Merc 1, and got updated later when Merc got updated, or else NiMUD is claimed to predate what it was based on. If the former is the case, then NiMUD got released less than 2 weeks after Merc 1 was. The current readme for NiMUD says that it was based on Merc 2.2. I posted a question regarding this on the talk page for NiMUD, but he hasn't responded yet. Locke wrote that NiMUD was released in 1992, and I personally added the December because of reading the Merc article, so it currently says "December 1992", but is likely wrong.
  • The entire NiMUD article is very POV, due to it being written by the author of NiMUD. I don't think I need to explain this. "Known as a more advanced codebase" and such.
  • It claims that NiMUD or the author of NiMUD were the first to use common terms, including "online creation", and the concept of referring to things in the game with an actor/scene/prop context. This is a problem that spans over toMob_(computer_gaming) too, which attributes "actor" to NiMUD.
  • MUDolc.org link is 'just there'. It should have a title or description indicating that it is Locke's home page.
    • A reader might think that this web site has everything about OLC, when really it only has stuff about the one by Locke. What's worse is that this article itself doesn't mention ones like SMAUG's editor.
  • Locke deleted an unflattering but accurate and informative paragraph. This edit is viewable athttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NiMUD&diff=prev&oldid=19026240 That paragraph is not perfect, and in fact ignores the fact that NiMUD also violates the Diku and IMC licenses. The paragraph as it was written should not be returned, but the gist of it should be rewritten and added to this article. The way that they had written it, it sounded like the only problem was that the license file was not included, when really it has other violations as well.

• Online_creation-
  • This is currently a vanity page for some software, and the article was written by the author of the software, and Locke wrote it with strong pro-Locke point of view, obviously.
    • 'It changed the way Dikumud worlds were created', but did not offer anything that wasn't already in wide use at the time. This is just a POV thing.
    • Legality - the article says that nobody is e-mailing Locke, but it neglects to mention places where Locke ignores the Diku/Merc/IMC licenses with NiMUD. Mentioning one and not the other is obvious bias. I don't think it's noteworthy that people didn't e-mail him before using his online creation software.
    • Sauerbraten comparison: The last 2 lines of this paragraph have meaningless buzzwords (almost all editors have modes, many apply changes in real-time, especially in the MUD realm, and are obviously persistent) to imply that his program is as complex as a graphical game with a 3D world in it. Sauerbraten should not be mentioned in this article at all.
    • "online building and online creation-like features" is phrased that way in order to imply that Locke's is the only software that goes by the name "online creation", or that other editors are emulating his by being OLC-like
    • "The feature present in this software is referred to as Customization": this is meant to imply that Locke's is the first to use the word creation in this context
    • "similarities to the type of interface present in online building": this and other parts are written in order to imply that all other software other than Locke's has a different name and nothing else is called "online creation"
  • The entire article should be renamed so that "online creation" can have more general information about it; it feels like we're hijacking the 2-word phrase for our own purposes and ignoring others. This is alot of information that is just about MUDs... there are other online creation softwares that are not related to MUDs. Wikipedia lets you put title_(context). For example, Mob just lists different contexts that you might say "Mob", and one is a link to Mob_(computer_gaming). So, I would suggest doing something like that. It would also be wise to give it a different name so that it won't be implied that 1 is the main software. Editors_(MUD) might be good.
  • Information that is onMUD related to online creation is not in the online creation article. Also, as others have pointed out on TMC, this isn't even the first in-game editor among Diku's. Online creation was in wide use before NiMUD's editor or even Merc existed.

• Online_building- Currently, there is 1 article about Locke's OLC and one about all other editors. There is not a use for 2 encyclopedia articles about individual in-MUD live world editors, let alone one about one and one about all the others. Otherwise we'll need to make separate articles for every codebase's editor. The information from here should be merged with the online creation article, with sections for each editor that is mentioned. The online building page can be set to forward to online creation (or vice-versa might be better). The entire reason that the 'online building' article was created was because Locke didn't want other in-MUD editors to be in his OLC page.

• Note to readers: the above stuff was written as notes to myself, and thus they don't sound polite and need to be read in context. And then I posted a link to this page from TMC, so I'm sure people are gonna come and think it's all Locke-bashing. I didn't go into much detail on some things because they are notes to myself. For example, there is nothing wrong with writing about yourself in Wikipedia, and having an obvious POV. In fact they acknowledge that those involved are often the most knowledgable about a subject. However, articles should be written with aneutral point of view. In my notes, I just said that "it's not NPOV", and it sounds mean to say and stuff. About half of these edits need some research to find exactly what to say, and the other half deserve some discussion on the discussion pages.Atari2600tim15:12, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings sockpuppet ;)

I figured I'd place some references here in the clear rather than burried deep into reams of banter.

From file:NiM5.beta_2.prerelease.tar.gz/NiM5/docs/history.txt (Describes v1.5 as the first publically released version of TheIsles)

10/15/1994TheIsles15.code.tar.gz199kThe first publically released version of 'The Isles' the originalserver I worked on as a first-time mud administrator.  My favoritecode because of its reliability, a generally good mud server withbasic, fun features simple enough for any user.  With minortext file modifications, TheIsles can import Diku areas.  Thereare some key features of the game which retained old Merc glory.I was 15, Surreal was turning 18.  We had been mudding for twoyears.

From file:Nimud.4.5.tar.gz/nimud/isles/src/oc.c (First time we see a claim that their OLC was developed before 1993/1994 -- 1991!)

Who was Surreal "Chris Cool" Woodward?Christopher Woodward was a student at Penn State in 1994.  A freshmanin computer science, he developed this online creation software in 1991for The Isles, a Merc-derived MUD hosted by the Hacks users group atthe University of Arizona.  It was first released publically in 1994.Originally developed as an answer to a lack of readily accessible areaeditors, the OLC has been expanded to include new features over theyears while still retaining core functionality.The Isles and NiMUD software has been dedicated to his memory.Chris died on December 13, 1995.

From file:nimud4.tar.gz/nimud4/docs/release.doc (Here we find a release version history, note the release dates of v1.0-1.5 are incorrect as noted by newsgroup postings below.)

Release History---------------NiMUD v4.0       "NiMUD GOLD"                   Halloween, 1999NiMUD v3.9999a   "NiMUD 2000"                   March 30, 1999NiMUD v3.0       The Isles Server Package 3.0   unreleased, 1997NiMUD v1.6       "Code Package"                 January 1995Nimud v1.5       "The Isles Pack, v1.5"         December 1995Nimud v1.1       "The Isles Pack, v1.1"         September 1994Nimud v1.0       "The Isles Pack, v1.0"         August 1994

From file:TheIsles1.1.tar.gz/isles/docs/isles10.txt (Here it appears that OLC is a new feature of version 1.0, file dated August 10th, 1994)

=============================================================================== Dramatically modified the way strings work within the code.     I can't remember what I did for this.  Dunno, except that we had to use a macro (STR()) which MUST be used unless you are access the variable directly.  On objects and mobs, all strings are set to NULL on creation.  Has to do with the OLC of Surreality's coding.  The index can be accessed the old obj->string way, but the actual object must be accessed with STR() unless your assigning it.===============================================================================*Added online creation (as per Surreality's coding!).     Yes, folks, we now have OLC.  BUT at some cost.   STR() had to be added everywhere, as well as a total revamping of the database.  I think the look of the new format is much improved over the other, with minimal size adjustment.===============================================================================

From newsgroup:rec.games.mud.diku -NiMUD 2000 CODE RELEASE ("NiMUD's lineage begins with Merc 2.2 -- it has been developed since the release of that source code.")

From: Herbert E Gilliland III <h...@andrew.cmu.edu>Subject: NiMUD 2000 CODE RELEASEDate: 1999/04/14Message-ID: <Ir5DVDi00Uw_1C7VI0@andrew.cmu.edu>#1/1X-Deja-AN: 466434781X-Complaints-To: advisor@andrew.cmu.eduX-Trace: bb3.andrew.cmu.edu 924121203 305 128.2.10.106 (14 Apr 1999 20:20:03 GMT)Organization: Freshman, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PAX-Added: With Flames (outnews v2.6)NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Apr 1999 20:20:03 GMTNewsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.muds,rec.games.mud.dikuNiMUD 2000Code Release, March 31 1999What is nimud?NiMUD's lineage begins with Merc 2.2 -- it has been developed since therelease of that source code.  Currently, only a few systemic processesremain similar.Features:-  Prepared for Roleplay Intensive development        NiMUD was written as the server for The Isles (mugs.net 2000),and has many features not present in diku-family software.  These featuresinclude an online create system (the original version of EnvyOLC wasported from NiMUD 2-xx, "v1.6"), a script parser ('procedural scripts'),support for ansi color, bulletin boards, advanced economic systems, skill-based advancement ("levelless mudding"), multiple languages, multipleraces, improved descriptive combat with multiple stances, and more.-  Fully configurable code-base       NiMUD is an admin-based MUD server.  Meaning that administratorscan fully create a unique world from the basic systems present in therelease version.  With online creation, area builders can employ theirgreatest fantastical visions easily and thoroughly from objects likeweapons, food, clothing, armor and furniture, to mobiles that interactand react as automatons.                GREAT!  WHERE CAN I FIND IT?NiMUD is available via the WORLD WIDE WEB at:http://www.mugs.net/~theisles/nimudNiMUD is available via FTP at:ftp://mugs.net/pub/theisles/code-Locke

From newsgroup:rec.games.mud.diku -The Isles (Version 1.5) RELEASED (Original release announcement for TheIsles v1.5 -- November, 1994, and statement that TheIsles was released four months prior, which would be July. Please also note the statement that this release contains source code only, nothing more.)

From: l...@telerama.lm.com (Herb Gilliland)Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.dikuSubject: The Isles (Version 1.5) RELEASEDDate: 19 Nov 1994 11:16:53 -0500Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PALines: 30Message-ID: <3al8dl$l0d@epicycle.lm.com>NNTP-Posting-Host: epicycle.lm.comX-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]I released The Isles four months ago, and now I am releasing the last version, which contains only a code package, to the general public.FTP Version 1.1, or 1.0, and replace the code with the code in this package,known as TheIsles15.code.tar.gz or TheIsles.codepackage.tar.gz.  I FTP'dthese two files to the incoming directories of marble.bu.edu andgrind.isca.uiowa.edu.  If you _still_ can't get a copy, I can send it toyou via Pine MIME or uuencode, but I will only do this for a few people,so please don't bombard me with requests.As I send, this is the final version I of the Isles which I will bereleasing to the public.  Why?  My reasons are varied; I had debated releasing this at all.  But I also wanted to release this version to leave the series with a more positive ending.  Version 1.5 is the most reliable, bug-free code that I have ever produced when writing thismud software, and so I would hope you can understand my reasons forfinally doing this.What of me?  I'm moving on to my mud, The Isles, and I'm going to hopefullyopen up for testing in a few months.  What I want is to be able to useThe Isles to create a wonderful roleplaying mud, similar to Armageddonin concept, but as an alternative to the Zalanthas theme.Thanks for your interests, requests and comments.  It's been fun.-- l...@telerama.lm.com          | Herb Gilliland, CEO Z8soft Productions                               | Contact our members:   c...@andrew.cmu.eduGeek Codes available by finger | l...@telerama.lm.com  surr...@telerama.lm.comInquire within.                | g...@telerama.lm.com

From newsgroup:rec.games.mud.diku -The Isles (OPEN!!) (Original release announcement for The Isles v1.1 --August 11th, 1994)

From: l...@telerama.lm.com (Herb Gilliland)Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.dikuSubject: The Isles (OPEN!!)Date: 11 Aug 1994 02:50:26 -0400Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PALines: 54Message-ID: <32chni$ici@epicycle.lm.com>NNTP-Posting-Host: epicycle.lm.comX-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]I am pleased to announce a new version of the Isles has been released into the public domain.  The Isles v1.1 is now available for FTP atftp.math.okstate.edu and grind.isca.uiowa.edu.Come one, come all!<mud ad snipped>

From newsgroup:rec.games.mud.diku -The Isles 1.0 (Original release announcement for The Isles v1.0 --July 29th, 1994)

From: l...@telerama.lm.com (Herb Gilliland)Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.dikuSubject: The Isles 1.0Date: 29 Jul 1994 01:27:06 -0400Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PALines: 15Message-ID: <31a3va$81q@tusk.lm.com>NNTP-Posting-Host: tusk.lm.comX-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]I released the source code I was working on, for those interested.  It is available in /pub/muds/incoming on ftp.math.okstate.edu.  This was a 2.2 Merc based source with some changes, including the addition of ANSI and Online Creation.  There was a bug in it which caused it to crash about once an hour, so I got fed up and didn't work on it for a few months.  I've lost most interest in continuing the source, but I was wondering if someone could find the bug.   Me@FutureMUSH-- l...@telerama.lm.com          | Herb Gilliland, CEO Z8soft Productions                               | Contact our members:   c...@andrew.cmu.eduGeek Codes available by finger | l...@telerama.lm.com  surr...@telerama.lm.comInquire within.                | g...@telerama.lm.com    gilli...@one.fcasd.edu

I also searched for CthulhuMUD, and the earliest reference I can find is basically Locke requesting a site to host his MUD, based on Merc 2.1, dated August 31st, 1993, and the article contains no mention of OLC for the purpose of world building, but does mention the ability for players to create their own rooms and restring their own items as inspired by the world ofMUSHes. He also marked that summer as when he first started modifying source code... specificallyMerc 2.1 code. Seereposting of stupidly deleted article.

I suppose I should have searched Google news first as it contained all the info we needed. BTW, I should also mention that the domaingame.org was registered on December 2nd, 1994 -- before all these original TheIsles releases. --Thoric23:54, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Re: user-piglet ;) Ha-ha ;) I wasn't being afraid, I just wanted all the resources in one spot without being mangled and/or reverted and/or otherwise obscured... so I figured your talk page was a safe place :P --Thoric23:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,my name is Federico (alias Pain) and I am creating a section for nominating th best user page, I was wondering if you were interested in joining the project.

The project has just started, and we need help to spread the word and ameliorate it.

Wikipedia:Votes_for_best_User_page

Best regards,Federico Pistono✆✍14:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eggster13:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eggster has a long history of putting nonsense into two articles that he created about himself, and harassing other Wikipedia users. He does this using many user names and many IP addresses, all claiming to be different people. To have any administrative action, it needs to be shown that there have been warnings regarding all the problems that he's started. I am fully aware that he already knows the rules, but it needs to be shown that he's aware of the rules before anyone can do anything about it. As a result, he's had dozens of warnings about personal attacks, a few about nonsense, and a little under a dozen about 3RR. Understandably, it looks harassing when everyone's given him so many explanations, but all the warning templates look like explanations, so it does look kinda insulting since he perhaps thinks we're just re-explaining it and doesn't realize that it counts as a warning. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)08:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An RfC has been filed against Young Zaphod. See (and endorse)Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Young Zaphod. --Karnesky12:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll read up on it I guess and post whatever's appropriate once I'm familiar with RFC (instructions aren't immediately obvious). --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)

Specifically, "Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse." and then there is a section for disputed behavior evidence and trying to resolve the dispute evidence, and I'm not sure if I can edit both :P I just got off of work at 7am and I'm half asleep and at a 2nd grade reading level at the moment :P I'll do whatever's needed soon. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)12:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hi, are you an adminstrator?

No, I just was trying to be helpful. I don't know where to report admin abuse, but it looks like somebody else has already helped you. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)16:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, it's me again, so it's 3 edits in day on any article or 3 edit overal. thanks :)—Precedingunsigned comment added by200.118.111.122 (talk •contribs)

It's three of the same change happening in a day. You can make lots of edits as long as you're changing different stuff each time. If there's one part which you change back lots of times though, then that's what is against the policy. The rule isn't about number of edits, it's about number of times that one fact gets changed. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)12:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A revised version of the proposed policy against censorship is now open for voting. Will you kindly review the policy and make your opinions known? Thank you very much.Loom9111:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm interested in censorship policies, but it looks like there are some votes going on. It'd be unfair for me to vote after (almost) being asked to vote, considering that it's easy to find some of my opinions about censorship. Because of my userboxes, one could even click on a category (something like "Wikipedians against censorship") and find a list of similar-minded people. Just to make sure there is no vote stuffing, I'm gonna stay out of it. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)09:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could you help me out on this point. That is if you remember it. If you remember otherwise then that's fine too. If you'd rather not that's fine also.http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG2&area=admin&page=8&message=4602#newest

Sorry to bug you, but this is the only way I could remember to contact you.Jlambert01:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The point was settled. Nevermind. :-)Jlambert10:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the thread is too long for me to specifically know exactly what you were wanting me to help out on, I'm going to take a guess that you're referring to where Samson was saying that nothing ever got deleted, and you said that things did get deleted.... presumably you're wanting me to vouch for whichever side. I do remember it, and it's pretty much as you wrote. Stuff does tend to get deleted from the forums (most definitely not "nothing"), I was frustrated a few times when I can't refer to old posts due to "pruning" and hacking and all that stuff. I would have simply looked on the Wayback Machine at archive.org, and I see that you did that yourself, so I wouldn't have been able to help any aside from what you're capable of yourself (except it'd be my "good name" I guess that's vouching). I haven't been keeping close track of the thread, but I skimmed it every day or two at least once, some of it's just silly. I also skim my MUD client backlog, and a lot of it is really obvious. First it's "nothing got deleted", then it's "the license changed, so it's been dealt with and is okay to delete the thread, everyone said it should be deleted", "well, some people said it should be deleted", "one person asked for it to be deleted and I agreed...", "I just felt like deleting it". Most of the chatting that's been filling up my buffer is a bit like that as well, I won't bore you with details, but there's some silly stuff being chatted :P --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)11:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're obviously someone who is trying to 'own' the article, and is not interested in a full, accurate article. I don't know whoUser:Young_Zaphod is, but I have nothing to do with that user.King queermo00:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your link to[1] goes to a message on December 31, 1993. The link says:

I have decided that I will only be giving out the code to the single person who originally asked; and only someone else who can offer me a site.  I have been swamped with messages asking me what kind of deal can be arranged and to reply to all your messages: Thank you for your interest, but I cannot give out the code to anyone who does not offer me a stateside, code access site for my mud. The original requester of some code, however, will be recieving the code soon, on the condition that he does NOT distribute it to anyone. I will admit if this condition is broken I can assume no action can be taken; and if so .. so be it.    Have a happy new year. Locke coder of cthulhumud (found NIMUD, CthulhuMUD, RiftsMUD, Nexis and Cthulhu2 .... siteless)

Obviously the above quote does not support that NiMUD's OLC was shared in 1993, and in fact shows that he was using his code for bartering in order to get hosting for his MUD, and that whoever he will give it to will be requested to not distribute it to anyone.

The other part I removed was regarding:

Locke alleges the original version "TheIsles15.code.tar.gz" was modified by an FTP site owner who refused to host the files due to "licensing issues."

This is silly to have in the article, as it is saying that an FTP site owner refused to host his files for legal purposes, and that the FTP site owner ALSO modified his files. Since whoever that's talking about refused to host the files, it is stupid to say that he modified the files... Did he modify it on his own computer and never distribute the file?

All of the above has been discussed on the NiMUD talk page and other related pages. Nobody has ever supported the link of[2] as proof of Locke sharing his code in 1993, aside from a multitude of users who all appear to be Locke himself. This is all detailed in the talk page for NiMUD and Online Creation and Young Zaphod's RfC and at the pages associated with Young Zaphods numerous temporary bans. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)00:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Changes I have made to that article, although in parts somewhat significant, are in fact warranted. My problem is that because of one very small detail of the article, Traumerei feels it is necessary to completely revert the article to an outdated state. If he does not like this one small piece would it not be prudent to altar that one small piece rather than revert to outdated material with poorer organization?

Thoughtstipated 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Both of you have reverted too many times. There aren't as many rules about talk pages about point of views and reverts and such, so get some consensus there and then bring it to the article afterward. If you think he's wrong, give any explanation you think might be unclear or not obvious about your own edits, ask him to do the same, and start from there. --Atari2600tim (talk •contribs)00:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Atari2600Tim: user "Thoughtstipated" states that apparently criticism of Medievia (even given that the code provenance issue has such wider implications, and is thoroughly documented) is inappropriate in the article on the game. He states that "In fact criticism within an article is not good form and generally frowned upon." He apparently doesn't understand NPOV, and seems intent on whitewashing the Medievia article, either overtly or in a more subtle fashion, probably making it yet another advertisement. I don't have the time or the inclination to keep bickering with him while he "rewrites" the article, but I think the two of us share the view that the article should present a balanced viewpoint, and be written in atleast a reasonably professional tone. "Thoughtstipated" is a new user, who until recently basically contributed nothing besides the interminable Medievia edits (much of which added little new information and was partly a rant on the MUD's admins and so on). He has "threatened" to ask for a "committee resolution" on the article, and I think we should take him up on his offer, and make some sort of effort to ensure that one user doesn't damage the work of many. What do you think? Thanks!

Traumerei14:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou for answering!

Hi Tim--perhaps you remember me from the "Medievia" MUD article discussions. I've been on a "wiki break" for a while, and I see that User Dn32, another "single topic" (namely Medievia) editor, is probably preparing to delete all mention of the controversy section--he posted something to the talk page back in February, to which I responded, but he made no further response. Subsequently he edited the article, removing mention of the MUD's for-profit status as well as deleting the fact that "donation" items (which are actually for-purchase items) deteriorate after a year.

While his edits do include some information as to how players might obtain these items in exchange for being admins and so on (this is a small fraction of the overall number of donation items, of course...or the MUD would never make any money!), it attempted to gloss over the facts. It's good that he seems to want to contribute to the article, but it's bad that the edits seem to be POV! Possibly a shill for the MUD administrators..who knows; this article seems to attract single-topic editors who seem to have much in common. In any event, he's reposted the same info that he posted back in February to the discussion page, and I've responded once again, but I'm afraid I don't have the time at the moment to engage in a lengthy back and forth edit process. If you could keep an eye out, I'd appreciate it, since both of us went to some trouble to ensure that the MUD's documented Diku origins weren't omitted. Thanks!Traumerei01:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I do believe you will want to know about theset of LPMud-related userboxes I just made. Enjoy. ;)Chaos502319:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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