Talk:Saint Boniface
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Proposal to change article name from saint Boniface to Boniface in line with general approach.Contaldo80 (talk)21:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The view that Bonifatius was murdered by an angry mob is distinctly christian and relies on the christian side of the story.
How is it "distinctly Christian"? What makes it "distinctly Christian?"
As we know from the hagiography, he was known for disrupting germannic religious ceremonies and the article itself mentions the cutting down of sacred trees. It is reasonable to assume, and in fact the hagiography tells us so, he did pretty much the same in Fryslân. However, theLex Frisiorum andKestigia, which has survived, explicitly states that this is a capital offence, so the view that he was murdered may be allright from a christian perspective, but it's simply a lawfull execution from a 8th century Frisian view. In the interest of NPOV, this deserves a mention. Dura lex sed lex, after all.Kleuske10:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On people who can be killed without a fine:
The duellist, who is killed in combat; and the adulterer (note V.1a) and he who is caught in a ditch, which he is digging around [to search through?] the house of another; and he who attempts to set fire to the house of another, who has the torch in his hand, while the flames reach the roof or wall of the house; he who demolishes a shrine; and the child expelled from the womb that is strangled [or: killed without nutrition] by the mother. (note V.1b)
On the honour of the temple:
If anyone breaks into a shrine and steals sacred items from there, he shall be taken to the sea, and on the sand, which will be covered by the flood, his ears will be cleft, and he will be castrated and sacrified to the god, whose temple he dishonoured.
http://www.friesgenootschap.nl/artikelen/bonifatius.htm
http://www.geschiedenis.leidenuniv.nl/index.php3?m=20&c=183
Apparently Kleuske has never read a word written by Willibald about Boniface, otherwise he would know that Boniface was not killed for destroying any shrines in Frisia (although Willibald mentions that he destroyed pagan idols and built churches in their place instead), but that his murderers were out for sheer plunder and booty. Willibald also says that Boniface had summoned the converts in the area around present-day Dokkum to come to him for confirmation - a peaceful act! It is true he cut down this oak tree, but that was in what today is Hesse. This was an act of barbarism in the eyes of the pagans living there, but quite a few of the spectators were Christians, including the garrison of a Frankish fortress nor far away. Altogether this means that there is no clear-cut case against Boniface.
And if you read the Frisian law carefully you may find this:Siems (1980, p 348) observes that the temple breakers article is not really a legal rule. The phrasing is rather narrative: it says how people acted, but it is not a strict order. Furthermore, it has been suggested that this ancient pagan custom has been included in the Lex to establish that the new Christian churches would enjoy the same protection as, before, the pagan temples.http://www.keesn.nl/lex/lex_en_intro.htm - the link is taken from the lemmahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Frisionum._ --79.245.56.128 (talk)02:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC) (sorry I don't have an account here).[reply]
I'm amazed anyone can get this upset over an event that happend more than a thousand years ago to which they were not a party to. How's about you get upset over some things that've happened in German history more recently? BTW, execution and murder are the SAME if you're on the receiving end.
Murder and execution are a different thing in legal matters and according to the [Lex Frisionum] he would have been executed for the destruction of holy sites. The whole article goes way too easy on someone who took a large group of armed men into a land to destroy their culture and religion. If someone now would blow up Saint Peter's or the al-Masjid al-Haram to show "that god" is powerless to stop him... how would you like him to be revered to later other then as a terrorist?— Precedingunsigned comment added by83.87.0.135 (talk)16:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"He is regarded as the First European". What nonsense. By whom? Only reference is to the St Boniface website which says he is "described as The First European" but gives no source (and, indeed, none of the links work). Deleted this statement.Emeraude16:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article reads "He (Boniface) wrote the first Latin grammar produced in England." Does his predateTatwine's? Tatwine was a contemporary, and was probably older than Boniface. So far as I know, there is no solid date for either one' grammar, so it would seem impossible to say which one was first. Boniface's was the first anywhere to include full conjugations of of all the classes of verbs.Dsmdgold (talk)03:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article reads as if it is certain that Boniface's birthplace was Crediton. Although this has been asserted by modern writers it is by no means certain from his "Life". Around 672 the area was possibly still in British hands and Boniface had to obtain king Ine's sanction to travel.Adresia (talk)08:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've lightly edited the first paragraph to remove the redundant second reference to Wessex. I've also changed 'possibly' to 'probably' as per Drmies comments about academic consensus. Also 'possibly' seems the wrong word to use in the context of someone's birth, which would definitely have to have happened somewhere.Blakkandekka (talk)14:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The line at the end of the sectionLegends is not properly cited: "This account is completely legendary (and probably later than the Middle Ages) and has no credible authority in any of the vitae or later biographies."
There needs to be a reference to this statement before it can be considered fact.—Precedingunsigned comment added byNwadlit (talk •contribs)06:32, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took a history class where the professor said that Boniface was very good friends with a woman named "Leafgyld" and in fact asked to be buried next to her, but of course, never was. Is this true?—Precedingunsigned comment added by172.190.21.50 (talk)04:00, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It says that Boniface killed a man just before going on his missionary expedition to Frisia. I can find no source to this that isn't a copy of the Wikipedia page, if someone could please confirm this with an actual source or remove it?—Precedingunsigned comment added by198.49.81.62 (talk)00:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would request that this article be reviewed for moderate bias:
"According to the vitae Boniface felled the Donar Oak, Latinized by Willibald as "Jupiter's oak," near the present-day town of Fritzlar in northern Hesse. According to his early biographer Willibald, Boniface started to chop the oak down, when suddenly a great wind, as if by miracle, blew the ancient oak over. When the god did not strike him down, the people were amazed and converted to Christianity. He built a chapel dedicated to Saint Peter from its wood at the site[13]--the chapel was the beginning of the monastery in Fritzlar. This account from the vita is stylized to portray Boniface as a singular character who alone acts to root out paganism. Lutz von Padberg and others point out that what the vitae leave out is that the action was most likely well-prepared and widely publicized in advance for maximum effect, and that Boniface had little reason to fear for his personal safety since the Frankish fortified settlement of Büraburg was nearby.[14] According to Willibald, Boniface later had a church with an attached monastery built in Fritzlar,[15] on the site of the previously built chapel, according to tradition.[16]"
Maybe use more objective language from "Lutz von Padberg" on? Objective language was used so well in the first half of the paragraph, showing what Catholic Church teaching believes, without implying that Wikipedia itself believes it. But reading the second half of the paragraph, I would come to the conclusion that Wikipedia is actually favoring this angle of the story, whereas they should remain balanced and removed, as an encyclopedia should.
Such modifiers that could help in improving this language might be "according," such as is done in the first half of the paragraph:
"According to Lutz von Padberg"
or, if you don't want to use the same word too often, you could add variety with:
"Lutz von Padberg and others believe that the vitae left out was that..."
"Point out" is too preferential & conclusive. It makes it sound like what they have pointed out is true simply because they have "pointed it out."
And again, there is no modifier. Maybe something like:
"Lutz von Padverg and others believe that what the vitae might have left out is that the..."
Please just persevere as you always do to remain objective. Every time bias is found, its troubling for those who want to give Wikipedia a chance.— Precedingunsigned comment added by64.193.224.130 (talk)14:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lead could benefit from a phonetic spelling or IPA of Boniface's name in English for non-natives. Is it pronounced like "bonny face"? Or is it closer to Latin/Italian/Romance, as something akin to "bawny faw-chay"? --37.82.174.247 (talk)14:50, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The result of the move request was:not moved. There is a clear consensus, that "Boniface" alone isn't enough; and a rough consensus that "Boniface of Mainz" isn't a good alternative.ArmbrustTheHomunculus14:56, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Saint Boniface →Boniface – According toWP:NCCL, "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the word 'Saint', if such a title is available and the saint is the primary topic for that name." Boniface already redirects here.Srnec (talk)12:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Sincepolling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into accountWikipedia's policy on article titles.Saint Boniface (Latin: Bonifatius) (c. 675? – 5 June 754), born Winfrid, Wynfrith, or Wynfryth in the kingdom of Wessex, probably at Crediton, was an Anglo-Saxon missionary who propagated Christianity in the Frankish Empire during the 8th century. He is the patron saint of Germany, the first archbishop of Mainz and the "Apostle of the Germans". He was killed in Frisia in 754, along with 52 others. His remains were returned to Fulda, where they rest in a sarcophagus which became a site of pilgrimage. Facts about Boniface's life and death as well as his work became widely known, since there is a wealth of material available—a number of vitae, especially the near-contemporary Vita Bonifatii auctore Willibaldi, and legal documents, possibly some sermons, and above all his correspondence.
Norman F. Cantor notes the three roles Boniface played that made him "one of the truly outstanding creators of the first Europe, as the apostle of Germany, the reformer of the Frankish church, and the chief fomentor of the alliance between the papacy and the Carolingian family."[1] Through his efforts to reorganize and regulate the church of the Franks, he helped shape Western Christianity, and many of the dioceses he proposed remain until today. After his martyrdom, he was quickly hailed as a saint in Fulda and other areas in Germany and in England. His cult is still notably strong today. Boniface is celebrated (and criticized)[2] as a missionary; he is regarded as a unifier of Europe, and he is seen (mainly by Catholics) as a German national figure.— Precedingunsigned comment added by49.144.208.53 (talk)09:16, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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I miss a section on criticism.--Bk1 168 (talk)21:55, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Forewords his Romishname (Boniface) yet amazingly censors his Godsgiven English name - sundry spelt, Wynfrid/Wynfrith and haps others kinds of spellings.— Precedingunsigned comment added by2A00:23C7:9C97:5D01:3D6F:1D5C:17EA:E2E6 (talk)08:04, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The result of the move request was:not moved(closed by non-admin page mover)Calidum18:51, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Saint Boniface →Boniface – Per the clergy guidelineWP:NCWC that discourages the use of 'Saint' unless it is necessary and the only viable option for disambiguation. ~Iskandar323 (talk)19:15, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]