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Magazine |Column

“There is no self.”

“Nope, never said that, either.”—The Buddha

ByThanissaro Bhikkhu
“There is no self.”
Alfredo de Stéfano, Tuareg Carpet-Sahara DeSert, Archival pigment print, 2012. From the Storm of Light Series, Robert Koch Gallery/San Francisco.

The Buddha was careful to classifyquestions according to how they should be answered, based on how helpful they were to gaining awakening. Some questions deserved a categorical answer, that is, one that holds true across the board. Some he answered analytically, redefining or refining the terms before answering. Some required counter-questioning, to clarify the issue in the questioner’s mind. But if the question was an obstacle on the path, the Buddha put it aside.

WhenVacchagotta the wanderer asked him point-blank whether or not there is a self, the Buddha remained silent, which means that the question has no helpful answer. As he later explained to Ananda, to respond either yes or no to this question would be to side with opposite extremes of wrong view (Samyutta Nikaya 44.10). Some have argued that the Buddha didn’t answer with “no” because Vacchagotta wouldn’t have understood the answer. But there’s another passage where the Buddha advises all the monks to avoid getting involved in questions such as “What am I?” “Do I exist?” “Do I not exist?” because they lead to answers like “I have a self” and “I have no self,” both of which are a “thicket of views, a writhing of views, a contortion of views” that get in the way of awakening (Majjhima Nikaya 2).

So how did we get the idea that the Buddha said that there is no self? The main culprit seems to be the debate culture of ancient India. Religious teachers often held public debates on the hot questions of the day, both to draw adherents and to angle for royal patronage. The Buddha warned his followers not to enter into these debates (Sutta Nipata 4.8), partly because once the sponsor of a debate had set a question, the debaters couldn’t follow the Buddha’s policy of putting useless questions aside.

Later generations of monks forgot the warning and soon found themselves in debates where they had to devise a Buddhist answer to the question of whether there is or isn’t a self. TheKathavatthu, an Abhidhamma text attributed to the time of King Ashoka, contains the earliest extant version of the answer “no.” Two popular literary works, theBuddhacharita andMilinda Panha, both from around the first century CE, place this “no” at the center of the Buddha’s message. Later texts, like theAbhidharmakosha Bhashya, provide analytical answers to the question of whether there is a self, saying that there’s no personal self but that each person has a “dharma-self” composed of five aggregates: material form, feelings, perceptions, mental fabrications, and consciousness. At present we have our own analytical answers to the question, such as the teaching that although we have no separate self, we do have a cosmic self—a teaching, by the way, that the Buddha singled out for special ridicule (MN 22).

“There is no self” is the granddaddy offake Buddhist quotes. It has survived so long because of its superficial resemblance to the teaching onanatta, or not-self, which was one of the Buddha’s tools for putting an end to clinging. Even though he neither affirmed nor denied the existence of a self, he did talk of the process by which the mind creates many senses of self—what he called “I-making” and “my-making”—as it pursues its desires.

In other words, he focused on the karma of selfing. Because clinging lies at the heart of suffering, and because there’s clinging in each sense of self, he advised using the perception of not-self as a strategy to dismantle that clinging. Whenever you see yourself identifying with anything stressful and inconstant, you remind yourself that it’s not-self: not worth clinging to, not worth calling your self (SN 22.59). This helps you let go of it. When you do this thoroughly enough, it can lead to awakening. In this way, the not-self teaching is an answer—not to the question of whether there’s a self, but to the question that the Buddha said lies at the heart of discernment: “What, when I do it, will lead to my long-term welfare and happiness?” (MN 135). You find true happiness by letting go.

Some ways of selfing, the Buddha and his disciples found, are useful along the path, as when you develop a sense of self that’s heedful and responsible, confident that you can manage the practice (Anguttara Nikaya4.159). While you’re on the path, you apply the perception of not-self to anything that would pull you astray. Only at the end do you apply that perception to the path itself. As for the goal, it’s possible to develop a sense of clinging around the experience of the deathless, so the Buddha advises that you regard even the deathless as not-self (AN 9.36). But when there’s no more clinging, you have no need for perceptions either of self or not-self. You see no point in answering the question of whether there is or isn’t a self because you’ve found the ultimate happiness.

The belief that there is no self can actually get in the way of awakening. As the Buddha noted, the contemplation of not-self can lead to an experience of nothingness (MN 106). If your purpose in practicing is to disprove the self—perhaps from wanting to escape the responsibilities of having a self—you can easily interpret the experience of nothingness as the proof you’re looking for: a sign you’ve reached the end of the path. Yet the Buddha warned that subtle clinging can persist in that experience. If you think you’ve reached awakening, you won’t look for the clinging. But if you learn to keep looking for clinging, even in the experience of nothingness, you’ll have a chance of finding it. Only when you find it can you then let it go.

So it’s important to remember which questions the not-self teaching was meant to answer and which ones it wasn’t. Getting clear on this point can mean the difference between a false awakening and the real thing.

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91 comments

  1. This is not a very good explanation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu of the foundational insight of no-self. Clinging to objects of the six-sense bases and associating them with “I”, “mine”, or “part of me” is the delusion of self most people possess, whereas no-self is the state of unbinding of these objects to the self, resulting in anatta or no-self, which is realized in the liberated state (vimutti). This is detailed by the historical Buddha in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya (SN22).

    If you think of the self as a conditioned construct that is defined by that which binds it to samsara – the forms, feeling, perceptions, ideas, and consciousness that you have associated with the self – then the unbinding of this conditioned construct is what results in no-self. This is similar to the concept of individuated consciousness that rises up from undifferentiated consciousness, in which no-self is simply the return to the undifferentiated state.

    It is in this undifferentiated state of no-self that the Buddha’s own enlightenment occurred, allowing him to see his own past lives and the disappearance and reappearance of all beings. Undifferentiated consciousness is not bound by space or time, and includes complete awareness of all that is, was, and will be, whereas the self protrudes up from this state, blocking much of its flow with self-created and self-centered phenomena from the five clinging aggregates.

    So if someone asks is there a self, it can’t be answered in a simple yes or no, as it depends on one’s own development in unbinding that which binds the self and individuated consciousness. If one is completely unbound, there is no self, if one is in the process of unbinding but is still bound then there is self that is unbinding, and if one is not in the process of unbinding then there is self.

  2. This articles renders the Buddha’s philosophy to the arguing shelf of religion- none of us were there- we have no idea what his intentions were and can hopefully read, think and evaluate the true meaning of love, compassion, self, and dharma without resorting to “this way is right”, “this is the only way to interpret” something, etc. Sometimes words can be taken literally (the Bible fiasco) and sometimes a thinking person extrapolates the best most kind meaning. Sorry but this article was a bomb for me.

  3. Shunryu Suzuki discusses this idea of “self” in a chapter of his book Not Always So. His point seems to be that the “self” is an abstract concept that does not really help a person meditate. This is a very useful idea to me.

  4. Just for clarity:

    some questions aren’t worth asking because their not useful according to the Buddha in order to achieve enlightenment.

    according to the Buddha, the question of self is irrelevant, because it has no useful answer, any question of this nature will lead to conflicting views, or congested thinking.

    the reason why we think Buddha said this is because back in the day they had public debates(they still do) and they pose questions. This is dangerous because there are some questions that aren’t meant to be asked, or that are useless to ask and lead to thought traps.

    the untrained self pursues things like I making and my making
    so then what is self?
    and what is not self?
    and how are things conceived of by the self not of the self?
    how can there not be a self?

    he says developing a self that is confident can be helpful for attaining goals, but when things lead you astray you can use this rationale of “not self” to sort of steer yourself in a different direction, and keep yourself toward attaining this place where you’ve found infinite happiness and so these questions become irrelevant.

    what are the responsibilities of the self?
    the belief that there is no self can some how exonerate you from responsibility?
    how can this “self”(which may or may not exist, or is just thrown into the vortex of N/A) have “responsibilities”?

    My only real conclusion here is I must go through this absurd battle with my own mind and body the fruits of which will be the nothing I already have. Although i doesn’t exist, so then there is nothing, what purpose is there to having thoughts? Or really doing anything except nothing?

    This is probably naive and caustic, just trying to get answers.

  5. Thank you. It seems to me so unusual that the Buddha should classify questions according to how they shoud be responded to. And questions seem so powerful – that to really analyse them seems so unusual in my experience. The whole self thing – I have been wondering about this. Sometimes our sense of self is fragile and so to call it into question may be harmful. Especially for young people I think, but then I am not young and I am still trying to work out what is skilfull. I experience an openness when I get out of my way – and I recognise the closedness when I am too much in my own way. But all this is so subtle. But I get selfing – so much! I have a way to go/ 😉

  6. What discerning perception. What a gift of truth. Remarkable insight. Thank you very much!

  7. My understanding of anatman : quite simply the Truth that there is nothing about me which is in any way transcendent, nothing which is not subject to change and dependent on causes and conditions for its existence. No soul, no transcendent consciousness or mind, no eternal “true self.” Everything we are arises because of causes that can be explained, and everything we are will eventually cease to exist.

  8. ”Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos” – the Buddha

    • “As to the question of where exactly hell and the Buddha exist, one sutra states that hell exists underground; another that the Buddha is in the west. Closer examination, however, reveals that both exist in our five-foot body. This must be true because hell is in the heart of a person who inwardly despises his father and disregards his mother. It is like the lotus seed, which contains both blossom and fruit. In the same way, the Buddha dwells within our hearts.”~Nichiren Daishonin

  9. Even if he didn’t say it because it could be misconstrued and lead to wrong views, “there is no self” is a very powerful teaching consistent with emptiness. It doesn’t mean that you don’t exist, or that karma isn’t at work in your life, or anything like that… but it will keep you from the subtle clinging that leads to views about a personal rebirth. The closest (real) thing to a personal rebirth is being a parent, and thus being causally connected to new life; or what happens as you “grow up”, being both the same and different simultaneously (even moment-to-moment). The normal impersonal sense (of all phenomena) is that what you are contains infinite possibilities and will assume new forms over and over, just as it used to be other things prior to your conception.

    Honestly I find the anti-“there is no self” stance to be more of an obstacle in modern times. It’s difficult enough to fall into a nihilistic view because you’d have to reject the “something” that clearly exists and the causal connections at play (karma)… but it’s very, very easy for humans to fall into an eternalistic view about the persistence of a subtle self after death. We have to play against the strength of our desires, pushing through the fear.

    The self that does exist is the ego, which is a false self and not anything inherently stable or lasting (certainly not independent of conditions). That’s the only disclaimer people should need.

  10. I found this article extremely helpful. This is my first article read on this site, I hope they’re all this helpful! I also enjoyed reading the comments. I always felt the “no self” explanations varied and seemed misconstrued. This explanation of “not selfing” makes MUCH more sense. It seems as though it’s not so much a matter of “is there a self or not?” but more “either way, it’s not relevant to the point” – the point being that happiness is found in letting go of the clinging… and what do we cling to more than our sense of selves? Our preferences, our egos, how things affect US, what can someone do for ME? What’s MY place in the world? All these ideas are self-centered and only add to our suffering and grasping. So putting ourselves aside makes more sense than pondering whether there is a self or not. You can put the illusion of self aside, you can put the reality of self aside, just put it aside and get on with happiness without distraction! That’s my partial take-away at least. Wonderful article.

  11. I am astonished at the suggestion that it is arbitrary and misguided – in some way – to try an understand, as clearly as we can, just what the Buddha was ‘talking about’. I don’t have to accept what he was saying but if I am interested in giving him a fair hearing, I need to understand what he is attempting to communicate on his own terms. So we require good translations of the original wording in the texts. I need to have the best understanding available of the terms he is actually using. If I hear ”blessed are the cheesemakers” instead of ”blessed are the peacemakers” I have not understood what the sermon on the mount was trying to convey – simple! There are so many self illumined seers in these discussions that it is difficult to understand why they have an interest in the Buddha – and what he had to say! Why bother with the silly old suttas/sutras? There just archaic texts transmitted by flawed and fickle human beings with their own desires and agendas. They did not even write the stuff down for five hundred odd years. Who knows what they added and subtracted. Perhaps they just dreamed the Buddha into existence in the first place. So why bother having an interest in Buddhism? I will just compare notes with old buddha – assuming he existed at all – and anything that corrresponds to my own deep and meaningful insights will have my approval. The rest I will attribute to the stupidity of my well intentioned but hopelessly fraught Dharma ancestors!

    • yeah, i don’t know who you are, but i will probably go and google you. but i’m with you.. i have read a lot of commentaries on these wisdom collection articles and have read the books they’ve written. i just took a class in
      early buddhsit history last week-end with rita gross at the Buddha dharma center in barre, mass. and learned a lot of things i never knew about the linneage i have been studying. I am discovering all the time; maybe that’s why there are endless books written, seminars and debates and phd’s. etc. if i relate the question ‘no self’ to nisdargtta, balkezar and rarmana maharshi, ramana says…… not, WHO am i, but,What am I, is it more accurate…. was Buddha a self-realized being as was ramana maharshi… should they debate each other? is there ‘a self’ or ‘no self’…. but then again doesn’t emptiness imply that they both exist….can’t see ‘the one’ without ‘the other’. sincerely, softwear1/ elizabeth…. softwear1 at comcast dot net……

  12. what a fascinating discussion. thanks to all for sharing their soul/mind. may all beings be free from suffering.

  13. The not-self totality formula18

    17 (1) “Therefore, bhikshus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, future or present, internal
    or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near19—all forms should be seen as they really are
    with right wisdom thus:
    ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’20

    18 (2) Therefore, bhikshus, any kind of feeling whatsoever, whether past, future or present, internal
    or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—all feelings should be seen as they really are
    with right wisdom thus:
    ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
    19 (3) Therefore, bhikshus, any kind of perception whatsoever, whether past, future or present,
    internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—all perceptions should be seen as
    they really are with right wisdom thus:
    ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
    20 (4) Therefore, bhikshus, any kind of formations whatsoever, whether past, future or present,
    internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—all formations should be seen as they
    really are with right wisdom thus:
    ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
    21 (5) Therefore, bhikshus, any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future or present,
    internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—all consciousness should be seen as
    they really are with right wisdom thus:
    ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

  14. The Buddha said world is empty of soul/self or belongings of soul/self.

  15. Anatta means emptiness of soul or self and there’re 3 ways to mean Anatta.
    (1) There’s “no fully self controlled person” and if there’s such person, then he/she could keep himself/herself as his/her wish. But no one can exist upto the self wish. That’s also emptiness of self meant by anatta. It’s described clearly in ‘antta lakhana sutta’ and ‘sachchaka sutta’.
    (2) Although we call he/she/person to point out doers and sufferers, there’s nothing a single independent substance to see as he/she or soul. Because we call he/she or self for a collection of few visible and invisible substances. That’s also emptiness of self meant by anatta.
    (3) The all substances including in self or soul are not permanent things. Impermanence of things leads to suffering & sorrows. So, would you wish to see that impermanent things which leads to suffering & sorrows as your soul or self.? NOT at all.! That’s also emptiness of soul which meant by anatta.
    * If you deeply aware of yourself then you’ll get know that now you’re deferent than before. That’s the impermanence of existance. It brings you suffering & sorrows continually in existance. So it is only arising sorrows & sufferings as existance of you or self or soul…! Only those sorrows & sufferings will come to an end by cession of this existance. Having clearly known so without beliving is called as Right View (or sotapanna).

    • there are some typographical errors and some words i’m not sure you mean to use. for instance, you used ‘beliving’ and i think you meant believing….

      could you correct this writing with someone who might understand english better than you do? thanks it would help
      otherwise it s unclear…

    • Dear Kapila, thank you for your Dhamma offering above. I had no problem understanding what you had to say. Please speak your truth freely and openly. Your contribution is appreciated. Your kalyana mitta, sangha dassa.

  16. The writer is, i believe asserting the contention that as living beings we most certainly have a self, but he also seems to be saying that our ‘self” does not last beyond the body – or is the word ‘subtle’ meant to suggest that something does survive death by pointing out that the ‘subtle self’ does not? If someone could respond with the correct definition of the phrase ‘subtle self’ used in this article i’d really appreciate it. Thanks

  17. Jimmy Leggat Interesting article. I’ve seen various discussions between Buddhists on this subject. I think what they are concerned with is the view that there isn’t anything resembling form, feeling, thought etc that is particular to what some would call a self. In this article the author emphasises that the Buddha avoided definitive statements regarding the question of ‘is there or isn’t there a self’. According to the author, this was because he believed some would not understand the answer or would misinterpret it’s meaning. If it were currently fashionable to say there is a self then I’m confident that the same author would be saying that the Buddha never said there was or is a self. So what does Buddhism say about this? The five aggregates referred to are sometimes described as heaps of habit. The habitual forming and reforming of form, feeling, patterns of thinking etc. The fact that we are recognisably similar to how we were last time we looked. The emphasis on anatma, no self, which is fundamental to the Buddhist teaching of dependent arising, could be seen as a challenge to the unhelpful view that everything originates in a self, a person or a God. As a consequence, traditional training for monks in the Mahassi Theravadin form of practice, for example, places considerable emphasis on no ‘i’. During this training, which I’ve personally participated in during a short retreat, awareness is cultivated to see that breathing occurs, with no self doing breathing; thoughts arise, with no self doing thoughts arising; feelings occur with no self doing feeling; sensations of hot or cold arise, with no self doing sensations. What becomes clear is that there is no autonomous agency ‘doing’ these everyday occurrences. They are just happening. This doesn’t mean that the notion of self as identity is meaningless. IMO, some people appear to go too far with the non existence views I’ve seen expressed. At the other extreme, the general view that individuals are the source of everything that happens to them strikes me as ridiculous and unhelpful. These views, both extremes, fail to allow any understanding of how actions arise in conditions and how those actions can be affected by changing the conditions that give rise to them. In general, I think the Buddhist view is a good basic description of interconnected conditions, affected by and affecting other conditions in a diverse flow of phenomena. It avoids the pitfall of offering explanations of ‘why’ or ‘where does it all begin’ and it neither asserts or denies anything in absolute terms. It’s a metaphor attempting to point to a helpful way of looking and seeing for ones ‘self’.

  18. This subject always generates many opinions so it is with trepidation that I offer mine: when we are born we come into the world with a “self” given to us by our parents and their respective gene pools. From birth forward it is our environment that further develops our “self” and our sense of “self”. In contrast to this “self” we should not lose sight of our “non-self” ie., that which we have in common with all other sentient beings independent of heritage and environment. So no matter how dominant our sense of “self” it does not exist without the fact of our “non-self”.

  19. I find this article an immensely helpful clarification of the self/no self debate. From a neuroscience perspective believing that the essence of self is the collective workings of the nervous system and the mind-body connection, I’ve never been able to buy into the arguments insisting that there is no self. Not-selfing I feel is a much more useful approach, what I call the “The quest for non-identity.”

    With deep gratitude. JW

    • “arguments insisting that there is no self” are resolved by looking into your bathroom mirror.

      • All of the confusion comes down to how “self” is being defined and used. If people take it to mean both a conventional sense of a set of aggregates acting as a unit (a “person” that retains the same name even as it changes), and also in an absolute sense as an independent unchanging essence, then nothing can be said about “self” without being a paradox or contradiction. That is why the Buddha didn’t make such statements as “there is no self”, because of how that would only lead to confusion for the common man. He used a different tactic instead, that of dismantling the illusion of permanence and independence that people associated with aspects of the mind/body. Thus the idea of a conventional self can remain, while the mind disassociates those delusional properties from said concept.

        He used the same tactic when asked whether an enlightened being would continue to exist after death. The question is itself loaded with false assumptions and can not be given a definitive answer — the assumptions need to be challenged, and then the answer arises naturally. It’s unfortunate that humans don’t do well with uncertainty and are such slaves to our desires; in the absence of concrete answers, we make stuff up (hence the thousands of religions). But hey, that’s life for ya!

        • One comment is that the notion of “self” was different 3,000 years ago in the Indian sub-continent than in the present globalized economy. As well, self was understood differently in cultures around the eastern Mediterranean, as well as in northern Europe, sub-Saharan Africa and the as yet unknown regions of what’s now North, Central and South America. A major component of self is how each individual is viewed by and participates in their respective families and societies, where “self-hood” is formed.

          • Yeah, even more reasons why it’s not so simple to tell people there either is or isn’t a self. 😉 I think the Buddha probably did the best he could, given the circumstances and his exposure to different philosophies/teachings/practices, and it’s up to each of us to walk the path and go beyond the limitations of the teachings. Buddhists will always be debating these things. It’s kinda like the Christian/Atheist debates we have in America where some don’t even agree on what “God” means. If we don’t all agree on what “self” means, then we have to do something else… like talk about the inherent properties of all phenomena, and whether they are independent, permanent, a source of happiness, et cetera. That will translate back into an understanding of the emptiness of self, given time and practice.

          • Is it really that the teachings are “limited,” aldrisang? More likely what’s limited is the seeker’s understanding. The teachings are perfect in and of themselves but our ignorance prevents us from grasping the highest truth in one shot. Hence what’s required is the teacher’s or the tradition’s skillful means.

            In the West, knowledge generally begins with the basics taught us in kindergarten and elementary school, becoming progressively more complex as we move up the ladder through middle school, high school and finally college. Hinduism most skillfully takes the opposite road in revealing the Truth, using a top down approach.

            For instance a swami might impart a Great Utterance, such as Aham Brahmasmi, I Am That Am I. If the student’s capacity to receive the full impact of revelation isn’t there, the teachings drop things down into broader upayas or views with more practices, tales of deities and demons and rituals to name a few. One day the penny will drop and the student will become enlightened, whether in this or some future incarnation.

          • Yes.

      • i’ve heard this from other people. for instance, when i told someone that i was studying buddhism, and we are taught that there is ‘no self’, my friend grabbed my arm with his hand and squeezed it, that was the end of our ‘argument’?… so i knew he was coming more from a scientific persepctive, the “facts ma’am, the facts”….
        what do you think now? don’t the hindus , where buddhism came from, believe in no self, don’t the indian self -realized masters believe there is no self?
        ramana marharshi, nisdargatta, balthezar, ! ! !
        i’ve read many of your commentaries before mr.gomez and I was shocked that you gave this answer on this one.

        • During the final 8 years of his teaching career Shakyamuni shocks his closest associates with these words “In the past I sat upright in the place of meditation for six years under the bodhi tree and was able to gain supreme perfect enlightenment. With the Buddha eye I observed all phenomena and knew that this enlightenment could not be explained or described. Why? Because I knew that living beings are not alike in their natures and their desires. And because their natures and desires are not alike, I preached the Law in various different ways. Preaching the Law in various different ways, I made use of the power of expedient means. But in these more than forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth.”
          He then proceeds to teach what’s now known as the Lotus Sutra. And one of its prime points is that the ultimate reality (or truth) is your life, exactly as it is. A mirror or a squeeze on the arm are simply reminders.

      • what you just wrote about covincing yourself ” by just llooking into your bathroom mirror,” is the MOST SIMPLISTIC ARGUMENT I HAVE EVER READ THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN IN ALL THE ITMES YOU’VE COMMENTED IN THE TIRICYLCE NEWSLETTER. I’M ASHAMED OF YOU. ARE YOU JOKING? E’VERYTHING IN YOUR COMMENTARIES OF THE ARTICLE S IN TRICYLE ,HAVE BEEN GOOD AND INTELLIGENT. WHERE DID YOU EVER DECIDE TO ” LOOK INTO THE MIRROR AND SEE YOUR ‘SELFL’, YOU DON’T MIRROR YOUR SELF, IF THERE IS A SELF, BY LOOKING INTO THE MIRROR… BUT YOU LOOK INTO YOUR MIND TO ARGUE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER E.E. ANSWER ?.

      • what you just wrote about covincing yourself ” by just llooking into your bathroom mirror,” is the MOST SIMPLISTIC ARGUMENT I HAVE EVER READ THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN IN ALL THE ITMES YOU’VE COMMENTED IN THE TIRICYLCE NEWSLETTER. I’M ASHAMED OF YOU. ARE YOU JOKING? E’VERYTHING IN YOUR COMMENTARIES OF THE ARTICLE S IN TRICYLE ,HAVE BEEN GOOD AND INTELLIGENT. WHERE DID YOU EVER DECIDE TO ” LOOK INTO THE MIRROR AND SEE YOUR ‘SELFL’, YOU DON’T MIRROR YOUR SELF, IF THERE IS A SELF, BY LOOKING INTO THE MIRROR… BUT YOU LOOK INTO YOUR MIND TO ARGUE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER E.E. ANSWER ?.

  20. Thank you, Thanissaro Bhikkhu. This was a very helpful clarification. With gratitude,

  21. i think i am hearing you more clearly now. i certainly don’t believe the buddha was infallible and i know he was not a god who had descended from on high etc. thanks for the discussion. xxoo

    • Any time. In fact you can email me (this username @gmail.com) if you wanna talk about anything Buddhism-related in the future.

    • I’ve read many of your ‘comments’ and would like to know if you are self-taught by reading buddhism on your own.or are you in a lineage of buddhism…or practice guru-yoga, or practiced, guru-yoga and you are now free…engaging in your own guru-yoga…within, testing information and teachings of buddhism… helping you toward an inner understanding!

  22. I’ve read many of the venerable Thanissaro Bhikkhu´s writings and discourses on meditation and the Buddha’s teachings. My practice has deepened a lot with his guidance and I hope he receives my heart felt gratitude here for bringing the teachings to life.

    Sometimes the differences of perspective between the Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Zen seem very serious, as if my allegiance to one or the other will determine what kind of landscape I live in. (No disrespect to Pure Land practitioners, that’s just not a landscape that calls me.) Other times, considering all these theoretical distinctions seems to morph into the debates the Buddha warned against getting lost in. So how do we keep discernment from falling into debate?

    At some point you just have to trust what pulls you. Yes, the conditioned mind is full of delusion and unskillful goals and yes, it can cunningly disguise its strategies as truth. But there are moments when your body and soul, (please just let me use the word without arguing about what it means) your body and soul actually come together in the presence of the truth. That’s what you need to follow, I think. For me, not-self, self is like corn starch and water. You mix them and one minute the mixture is liquid, the next minute it’s solid. Form, formless. Both, neither. You play with whatever shape it’s in.

    Finally, I’d really appreciate it if the venerable Thanissaro Bhikkhu would be so kind as to post some quotes or the citations for the Buddha ridiculing the idea of a cosmic self. I’m rather partial to that idea myself. There’s always something new to let go of, isn’t there…

      • Thank you, rohiller! I’m going through the canons slowly, but this from T. Bhikku bears repeating:

        Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them.

        • I am reading comments from you for the first time. you seem remarkably astute in the teachings of buddhism. Are you a nun//, teacher? enlightened one?
          or just a regular buddhist lay person. I am much taken with the commentaries of the wisdom articles. I am looking for dialogue, or those in the boston area….. who study and meditate/ reflect,.discourse…..
          where are you, who are you? ooops ‘no-self ‘your lineage? books,
          are you an author, journal?

          reply to: softwear1 at comcast dot net…..thank you softwear 1

        • I am reading comments from you for the first time. you seem remarkably astute in the teachings of buddhism. Are you a nun//, teacher? enlightened one?
          or just a regular buddhist lay person. I am much taken with the commentaries of the wisdom articles. I am looking for dialogue, or those in the boston area….. who study and meditate/ reflect,.discourse…..
          where are you, who are you? ooops ‘no-self ‘your lineage? books,
          are you an author, journal?

          reply to: softwear1 at comcast dot net…..thank you softwear 1

        • I am reading comments from you for the first time. you seem remarkably astute in the teachings of buddhism. Are you a nun//, teacher? enlightened one?
          or just a regular buddhist lay person. I am much taken with the commentaries of the wisdom articles. I am looking for dialogue, or those in the boston area….. who study and meditate/ reflect,.discourse…..
          where are you, who are you? ooops ‘no-self ‘your lineage? books,
          are you an author, journal?

          reply to: softwear1 at comcast dot net…..thank you softwear 1

        • HI

  23. Wonderful article. Thank you Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Very appropriate for April Fool’s Day. 🙂
    It also reminds me of the wonderful Mu-koan.

    Cheers!

  24. my apologies. i think the pali word for ‘no’ is ‘nai’. so ‘no soul’ in pali would be ‘naiatta’ or, ‘naiatma’ in sanskrit. I have been told that the term ‘naiatta’ is no where to be found in the early strata of the teaching. Perhaps it was rendered this way in some chinese – and possibly tibetan – translations and reworkings of the early teachings.

  25. the author of the article is a theravada bhikku. it might be of some use to look at the etymology of the word ‘anatta’ which is found in the pali sutta’s. the buddhist texts of the theravada tradition. anatta is a compound word. The first part ‘an’ means ‘not’ and the second part of the word is ‘atta’ which means ‘soul’. in sanskrit the word is rendered as ‘anatman’. the pali and sanskrit term for ‘no’ is simply ‘a’. Therefore, if the Buddha had taught ‘no self’ he would not have used the term ‘anatta or anatma. At least this is what i have been led to believe. so anatta or anatman actually means ‘not soul’. I have seen in zen teachings this word being rendered as ‘no self’. it is not clear that the Buddha ever said ther is no self. Plain and simple. no self seems to be an affirmative statement about the nonexistence of a self. Anatta or anatman is not a positive statement about the absence of a self. It is an investigative tool for inquiring into what we may take to be ‘ourselves’ i.e. the five aggregates. This is the theravadin perspective as i have come to understand it.

    • I’d say that in America, “soul” is the closest thing to what “self” means in Buddhism. We just don’t use self in that same way, but we do think of soul as the unchanging permanent essence of who we are.

      • Then Buddhism teaches there is no soul. Or that a soul is a construct.

        • No soul, no self (at least not as an independent unchanging essence). There are many levels to be deconstructed; I was just pointing out that in America, due to its attachment and history with Christianity, the idea of an unchanging essence is most closely associated with the word “soul” instead of “self”. One is a concept identified as spirit not dependent upon the body, while the other is the mind/body construct. It may well be that in the East these are both the same thing, but in the American mind there’s a difference to be taken into account (at least conceptually; it may help some people).

          • The issue is dualism: splitting the spiritual (soul) or self (mind) from one’s material/body. Buddhism understands these two aspects of life as two sides of the same coin. Neither exists without the other. OTOH Christianity, et al. believe they become unhinged at death, one aspect travelling to some kind of heaven or hell, the other returning to the dust of earth. Buddhism posits that soul (or self) temporarily merges with the greater life of the universe (it doesn’t really “go” anywhere), becoming manifest again when conditions are right (birth).

          • I don’t know what Buddhism you’re talking about that teaches there’s any soul. My understanding is nondual. There is mind/body, but they’re really the same thing. There’s no “spirit” apart from that. Really when you think about it, body is “matter” and mind is “energy” (the two sides of the coin, like you said). There’s nothing else, no special subtle self that’s transmigrating around. Nor does it temporarily merge with anything… it’s always one with the universe (only delusion makes us think otherwise). You can believe otherwise if you choose, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I’ve said all I care to say about “rebirth” as the first comment on this article, waaaaay down at the bottom, and I really don’t have it in me to argue with you if you believe otherwise. =) Adios!

          • Soul is just a word. So is body. Two words pointing to the same thing: your life itself.

          • Body and Mind are descriptions of aspects of Reality/Emptiness; Soul is a concept without object, like God or The Ether… but it’s all mistaken for Self, whether there’s something or not.

          • So soul/self is just an idea, like love, joy? What do you believe Self (capital S) to be?

          • I wasn’t saying anything about “soul/self”, I was saying one thing about “soul” and another about “self”, as taken in the context of American Buddhists that are likely to differentiate the two.

            Soul is a concept that points to nothing real, like saying there’s a planet orbiting the Earth called Futzwicca (there’s an idea of Futzwicca, but no actual object that can be identified). It’s not like joy or love… joy and love are words that point directly to their respective emotions and attachments, etc. The idea “soul” is basically that there’s a hidden sixth aggregate that is eternal and unchanging, and that’s your true essence that survives death and can travel to various afterlives. It’s a pervasive idea in religious thought because most religions do in fact provide some form of afterlife to defer the fear of death.

            Self (in the conventional sense) refers to actual phenomena, in short the five aggregates of mind/body, but through training and practice Buddhists come to see that all phenomena are transient and ownerless (in fact a source of suffering when craving, attachment and delusional “self-identification” are involved). Anicca-Dukkha-Anatta, as they say. All phenomena that can be thought of as self conventionally are eventually understood as not-self in the absolute sense.

            What I was saying earlier is that in America, “soul” and “self” have these different connotations. I think that in the East, as in the Buddhist teachings, they are all rolled into one. I’m trying to be as clear as I can, but perhaps if you’re not an American or experienced with religions that talk about souls (like Christianity/Catholicism), it could be all Greek to you.

          • Perhaps Americans need to roll “soul” and “self” into one as well, given the growth of Buddhist thought here. That would make its teachings more comprehensible, less conflated with the native deism.

          • *shrug* Might as well be teaching Hinduism if we’re going to have a soul (atman or inner-self) at the center of it all. =)

            Buddhism teaches five aggregates, and each aggregate is exposed as not-self in its turn. People make things too complicated; they’re very, very simple. The only thing that’s complicated is how much delusion we’re steeped in from the time we’re very young… winding our way out takes a lot of time and effort!

            On top of that we still have craving for life and to avoid death that keeps us from breaking through the final self-delusions.

          • While Hinduism teaches “a soul at the center of it all” Buddhism sees the entire universe as your life itself.

          • The universe is an ocean; our lives are waves forming, rising, declining and crashing into dissolution. The waves are not separate from, or other than, the ocean. Indeed instead of “waves” (noun), it’s “the ocean waving” (verb).

            The delusion of self (inherent independence and stability) is the fundamental ignorance leading to all forms of suffering. The wave is the ocean; you are the universe.

            We’re on the same page, or a similar page, we just put things differently.

          • Delusion is that a temporary wave (your lesser self) is you forever. But it’s the ocean (your greater self) that’s eternal.

          • Not even the “greater self” is unchanging and fixed. Everything is changing all the time. The only unchanging aspects of reality appear to be the underlying laws, and they are formless and ungraspable to begin with. Take away all the “your”, the sound of possessiveness, and I mostly agree with you. We don’t own ourselves, nor does anything else. It simply is.

          • Just like the ocean life is in a state of constant flux. And, plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

          • Surprised of knowledge of Futzwicca, comprised of dark matter remaining unseen; you earthlings may say “I am surprised,” but no existence of human “subject. “

  26. Is anyone else bothered when someone says, “The Buddha says…” without giving the text that contains the words? We only know “what the Buddha said” by examining texts handed down for thousands of years, some written hundreds of years after his death.

    To me, the dharma is not built solely upon the earliest teachings passed down from antiquity. There has been a lineage of teachers proceeding from that time–and their interpretations have power and relevance to us here and now. The historical Buddha was enormously wise–wise enough to tell us that we should not accept doctrines because he said them, because authority and tradition compel us to accept them, because the logic of the day urges us to submit to them. He said we should be a lamp unto ourselves, ready to accept teachings only if they prove correct to us.

    Insisting that only teachings originating from the earliest records should be valued seems wrong to me–and goes against the Buddha’s injunction to be a lamp unto ourselves. If later interpretations of “no-self” resonate with practitioners, then they have value. The discussion of no-self is the important thing, not the congruence of a certain point of view with the oldest Suttas. At least that is the way I see it.

    • I take it all with a grain of salt whether it’s in the suttas/sutras or not, whether it’s Thera or Maha or Vajra. Humans are fallible and capable of infusing scripture with manifestations of their own desires (and just plain mistakes). People love to go on about how accurate the method of transmission was… as if when it got to the point of being written down (if not before), it couldn’t have been modified in a thousand tiny ways just as the Christian Holy Bible has been. And they used to claim theirs was infallible. 😉

      • As you put it, “humans are fallible and capable of infusing scripture with manifestations of their own desires (and just plain mistakes).” This is precisely the reason why I believe some attention should be given to whether a teaching is actually in the suttas/sutras. Is a teaching consistent with what is actually attributed to the historical founder i.e. the Buddha? This seems like a reasonable question to ask, if someone has an interest in Buddhism and its origins. And your observation of how the christian bible has been modified in a thousand ways is also a good reason – as far as I can tell – for closer scrutiny of christian tradition and its development through time. I can’t see anything problematic about questioning teachings and their origins. I thought the Buddha encouraged us to do as much.

        • It is good to question whether something is actually in the sutras/suttas or not, I agree. But what I said also applies to those… just because it’s written or claimed that someone, even an enlightened being, said something doesn’t mean that A) they did say it and B) it’s true. Everything must be tested against our own experience. We shouldn’t throw things out unless we’ve proven them to be wrong, but neither should we believe what we haven’t proven to be right. There’s a certain amount of trust/faith you need to have to follow the path, but if you go too far in either direction you will fall off that path.

          • that sounds a bit more moderate and considered than saying ”i take the suttas/sutras like a pinch of salt. indeed, question everything, including the early texts and later teachings. What i am finding a little odd about some of the entries in this discussion is how casually dismissive of traditional teachings they seem to be. if we take the buddha as just another average joe whose opinion is not worth a pinch of salt or, see him as somebody who has been vastly overrated then what are we left with. It means our own views and opinions are as good as fred, george, harry or old buddha! we become the arbiter of truth. if we are so full of our own self certainty there is nothing to be understood in the first place. so why bother having an interest in buddhism in the first place. how to avoid total relativism with this kind of understanding?

          • Healthy skepticism is a virtue. What’s not a virtue is slippery-slope logic where one says you might as well throw everything out. I’ve actually said you shouldn’t throw out what you haven’t proven to be false, nor believe what you haven’t proven to be true… you should start with finding the core teachings to be reasonable (to make sense) and then apply effort toward establishing a steady practice and realizing these truths for yourself. Don’t cling; hold with an open hand.

            Truth always wins out, and there’s nothing to worry about if the truth is important to you. If I’m casually dismissive of anything at all, it’s blind faith (for anything, any religion). The confidence you should have in the Buddha’s teachings should be based on something more solid than thinking the teachings (or teacher) are perfect and infallible.

            Unlike some religions, parts of Buddhism can be wrong without invalidating the parts that are right. The Buddha was not a god, he was a man. Men (and women) are the ones who wrote all of the scriptures. We have to have some faith in ourselves to walk the path and come to “know” for ourselves, as the Buddha knew for himself; this is why it’s said that we all possess “Buddha-nature”. The teachings and teachers are our guides to realizing our own minds, they are not our gods! There are Christians who claim that if God doesn’t exist, then everything is relative and anything goes — we must not do the same with Buddhist teachings, attaching to them as absolute objective truths without question.

            As with most things in Buddhism, we have to find a “middle way” that avoids the extremes. Holding up the scriptures as authorities is one extreme; denying them altogether is the opposite extreme. The middle way is to take everything with a grain of salt, meaning to see for yourself before judging a teaching to be true or false. Provisional acceptance as hypotheses, just as in science, so that you can gain wisdom instead of gaining mere beliefs.

          • i think i am hearing you more clearly now. i certainly don’t believe the buddha was infallible and i know he was not a god who had descended from on high etc. thanks for the discussion. xxoo

          • No problemo, and nice talking to you too.

    • You make a lot of good points dear mitra. We should not be hung up on the teachings of old! Indeed, the Buddha did point out that we should practice what we have found to be beneficial in our lives. The proof of the pudding is in the eating! However, one issue that may arise – for some us – regarding the teachers and teachings of more recent times, is consistency! In other words, are later teachings consistent with those teachings that have been attributed to Gotama the Buddha. I am not saying that many later teachers and teachings have not shared things of value. But I do think it is important to know how the Buddhist teachings have evolved through time. Why not? What would be the harm?

      • Here are the places we can go wrong when it comes to considering inquiry into our nature and the nature of the world:

        1. The Buddha was wrong about certain points.
        2. The Buddha was right, but misunderstood by those in attendance.
        3. Some teachings of the Buddha are not authentic; they came from other traditions.
        4. Some teachings were garbled in recording, translation, miscopied, or damaged.
        5. Those inquiring into the nature of self and the universe are not always well-informed.

        There may be other possibilities, but the point is that fallible human beings are involved in every step in the transmission of doctrine. At the same time, we should not rule out the possibility that the Buddha was wrong about several points: he lived in a time before science–for one thing–and the idea of evidence-supported theory would be a long time in coming. We need to get to the bottom of things–and the Buddha’s view (as I see it) has been enormously influential with me. Still, we constantly need to ask ourselves if the underlying meaning is clear, if it is correct in view of what we know now, and if it is expressed in language that is relevant and comprehensible to us now. All of this is a heck of a lot more difficult than simply accepting truth as revealed by this personage or that, but at the same time it is consistent with the dharma’s admonition to be a lamp unto yourself.

    • An unfortunate result of later students incorrectly elevating buddhas to unapproachable deities separate from the rest-of-us. Such a mindset by default denies enlightenment or wisdom for the common man or woman.

  27. who cares, there is no self is not an issue. it does not matter. go look at some trees and forget about this crap. spend time frugally. you are not going to live forever. breathe some air.

  28. An alternative interpretation to the question being irrelevant is that the answer to the question is best realized by the person asking the question and anyone else who hears the question, and I currently think its a objective rather than subjective answer.
    Similar to how the account of the crucifixion of Christ involved the thief to the left asking him why he wasn’t doing anything to help at that moment of time, which was supposedly answered with silence, which I believe has resulted in some cherry picking a interpretation that God has no heart for the supposedly unrighteous.

  29. Yes, this is all fine and groovy, debating and discussing what the Buddha said, and what he meant and what Buddhist teaching is. How about this, looking deeply into the mind and its movement, I find no mover. Looking deeply at thoughts, I find no thinker. Looking deeply for a ‘self’ I find memories, opinions and beliefs, but no inherent self, but only a functional self for living in the stream of life. The self is empty, in that it is sort of there in a practical every day to day way, but not there as an inherently existing thing, like a soul that occupies the body or mind. It’s much better, I think, to look and see the nature of a ‘self’ oneself than debate and discuss. As a Zen (Buddhist?) might say, put your self here on the table top that we may look at it. On the other hand, here is a cup of tea for you…

    • Good. Along these lines here’s a quote from the “Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation”: “When one seeks one’s mind in its true state, it is found to be quite intelligible although invisible. In its true state, mind is naked, immaculate; not made of anything, being of the Voidances; clear, vacuous, without duality, transparent, timeless, uncompounded, unimpeded, colorless, not realizable as a separate thing, but as the unity of all things, yet not composed of them; of one taste, and transcendent over all differentiation.”

  30. Clearly, Buddha’s teaching on the five skandhas is a core teaching of no-self. There is no self, no “I” to be found anywhere: only aggregates or qualities that we call a self out of convenience and habit. This doesn’t mean that you and I don’t exist. It just means that you and I don’t and can’t exist independently. As Thich Nhat Hanh put it, you and the cosmos, or you and I, inter-are.

    Where in the cosmos could we find a self? There is nothing outside. As Yasutani Roshi put it, “When you hear about no-self, don’t be sad. Thanks to no-self, the entire universe is self.” The teaching of no-self is the opposite of nihilism. Everything matters, everything and each moment is sacred and an expression of truth. The universe is nothing other than the one body and each one of us is that body. In the words of YunMen, “My body’s so big there’s no place to put it.” But when we’re locked in a private slot canyon of self-apart, we miss it.

    • I appreciate your metaphors,good explanation,i like the part about being happy when we find out that we are not separate from the world.Like most of these ideas,You know them when you directly experience them,then you will have no doubt.

    • “Thanks to no-self, the entire universe is self.”

      This reminds me of something my Lama told us that the late Kalu Rinpoche, his root guru, said.

      Essentially, “There is a truth and you are that truth but the problem is you don’t know it. If you ever wake up you’ll find that you are nothing. And being nothing, you are everything.”

  31. The verb-like process Buddhism upholds is non-self-ishness, a more proactive stance for human beings.

  32. ” love, pride, hate, joy give the appearance of fixed
    substances, but such nouns have no reality and only obscure the insight
    that we are dealing with processes going on in a human being. ” (Erich Fromm)

  33. At the risk of talking about something that may only hinder awakening…. I kind of like the notion that Buckminster Fuller put forth several decades ago, “I seem to be a verb.”

    • Good quote!

    • I like the quote, too. My understanding is that the sense of self comes and goes like all other things–cabbages, kings, thoughts, memories, a flash of lightning. These things are, indeed, verbs in that they are not frozen into one position.

      Clinging to a notion of an abiding self leads to dukkha, since we seek to protect it through controlling our environment–an impossible task given the impermanence of all things. So…is there a self? Well, yes, just as there are cabbages and kings–but it flickers into existence only to disappear, moment by moment.

      I wonder if the author of the article is not bothered by the emphasis of Zen on non-dualism, an emphasis that is, perhaps, less important in the Theravada view. If so, his reference to realizing no-self as a form of nihilism is off the mark. Someone who sees the illusory nature of the self is far from being a nihilist: when the world is experienced free of the concept of subject-and-object, only Reality, things-as-they-are remains. That is not nihilism at all.

    • That elusive self to which “I” commonly refer as “me,” is wholeheartedly there with you on Bucky Fuller’s (fully documented) quote. “I Seem to Be a Verb: Environment & Man’s Future” is also a great and relevant book. Thanks for the memorandum.

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