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Wikitech-lDecember 2003

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by Max Lobovsky 23 Mar '04

23 Mar '04
Hello, I regularly read and contribute to Wikipedia under the name Iammaxus.Over the last few weeks, I have been mulling over an idea on how tosignificantly improve the mediawiki project. I posted the following on myuser page before finding and reading this mailing list only to find out thatthis idea has been discussed here(http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2003-December/007185.html),albeit not with the scale that I'm imagining Because im not sure where toput this in the metawiki, and im not sure if anyone would care if I did,here is an excerpt from a conversation i had with a friend of mineknowledgeable in computer science on 12/24/03 (note that I wasn't seriouslyasking him to do this, just more of bouncing an idea of off him): I Am MAXUS (2:30:14 PM): yo Chin Jut: hi I Am MAXUS: code a meta data system for wikipedia Chin Jut: what's that mean? I Am MAXUS: i can't even begin to imagine the possibilities I Am MAXUS: well first off I Am MAXUS: organize topics I Am MAXUS: in a tree system I Am MAXUS: this would be part of the meta data system I Am MAXUS: well wiat I Am MAXUS: lemme start from the beginning Chin Jut: ok I Am MAXUS: the overall point is to allow more machine generated info, stuffthat shouldnt be manually made like it is now, or even with one time usescripts I Am MAXUS: such as lists of articles I Am MAXUS: tables of dates Chin Jut: alright Chin Jut: "List of famous bears", that sorta thing I Am MAXUS: but much greater than taht Chin Jut: alright I Am MAXUS: so u could just request a list of a certain sub tree I Am MAXUS: etc I Am MAXUS: then it would have more specific meta data I Am MAXUS: such as meta data about books including the author and such I Am MAXUS: so that this would automatically be put into an article aboutthe book Chin Jut: ok I Am MAXUS: so: I Am MAXUS: ? I Am MAXUS: go I Am MAXUS: ]and do it Chin Jut: well, gee Chin Jut: that's a large project Chin Jut: I'm not even sure what to begin with Chin Jut: I mean, what features need to be available? Chin Jut: (I'm not gonna be able to do this, why am I talking?) Chin Jut: what, concretely, needs to be done? I Am MAXUS: good question I Am MAXUS: well first of all, learn xml and shit I Am MAXUS: cause thats how all this junk is done I Am MAXUS: or somethintg I Am MAXUS: lol Chin Jut: But Tim Sweeney speaks disparagingly of XML... I Am MAXUS: does he? Chin Jut: yeah I Am MAXUS: what does he say is bad about it? Chin Jut: lemme see if I can find it Chin Jut: "Does anyone else see XML as an overcomplicated solution themeager problem of serializing data in and out of text files?" Chin Jut: Philip Wadler (one of the main guys behind Haskell) also bashesXML: "So the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, andit does not solve the problem well." Chin Jut: All the same, yeah, I'll learn XML I Am MAXUS: lol I Am MAXUS: well screw those guys I Am MAXUS: cause everyone is using it Chin Jut: yeah Chin Jut: Phil Wadler goes on to say I Am MAXUS: waht does he mean "serializing data..."? Chin Jut: It's worth studying XML just because it became popular whilebetter things did not Chin Jut: Serializing data means writing it and reading it from files Chin Jut: you take a complicated structure, like a tree Chin Jut: and turn it into some linear sequence of bytes Chin Jut: hence, you've turned it into a series... you've serialized it I Am MAXUS: right I Am MAXUS: anyway i dont know if u can usel xml I Am MAXUS: because of the database based nature of it I Am MAXUS: but something similar I Am MAXUS: anyway I Am MAXUS: i dont know about searching, and thats the main function of thissystem I Am MAXUS: so u have to figure out how to do that I Am MAXUS: so each article has info attached to it I Am MAXUS: ideally, the types of info could be specified by ppl in arealtively plain language way I Am MAXUS: so taht ppl could specify more types of meatadata for certaintypes of files Chin Jut: what types of metadata would people specify? Chin Jut: Like "this article is about bears"? Chin Jut: Shouldn't that be auto-discovered by computers? I Am MAXUS: thats beyond the scope of this I Am MAXUS: that requires all sorts of human communication stuff Chin Jut: ok Chin Jut: so then what is this, exactly? I Am MAXUS: i told you! I Am MAXUS: for example, lets take the organism pages Chin Jut: ok I Am MAXUS: they all have the classification on the side I Am MAXUS: well instead, each page would have a is a member of this highergroup I Am MAXUS: which wikipedia would look at Chin Jut: I see I Am MAXUS: and see what thats a memeber of I Am MAXUS: and dynamically figure out the whole classifcation I Am MAXUS: this is not such a useful example because its much more static I Am MAXUS: but take the date pages, those are useful mommas to meta-fy Chin Jut: ah I Am MAXUS: so if a page is an event Chin Jut: so people would have to say in the event I Am MAXUS: it would include date info I Am MAXUS: and type of event info Chin Jut: "Date info: July 4, 1776" I Am MAXUS: right Chin Jut: and then the date page would say "Search for all pages with dateinfo: July 4, 1776" I Am MAXUS: so it coud be added to the "type of info in history" page I Am MAXUS: that too Chin Jut: "typo of info in history" page? I Am MAXUS: well like the music in history page I Am MAXUS: etxc I Am MAXUS: etc Chin Jut: ah I Am MAXUS: so if u had a page that was under the music subtree I Am MAXUS: and then under the band subtree I Am MAXUS: and u had dates of existence of that band I Am MAXUS: and then there could be an important concert subtree, etc Chin Jut: well, to be technical, I don't think these are trees, I thinkthey're DAGs Chin Jut: but it doesn't matter I Am MAXUS: dag? Chin Jut: directed acyclic graph Chin Jut: in a tree, a node has only one parent Chin Jut: (at most) I Am MAXUS: yeah good point Chin Jut: ok, it's sorta interesting. I have no idea how to do itefficiently, though. But I think I might actually work on it I Am MAXUS: lol I Am MAXUS: i want to copy this conversation into themetawikipedia.orgsomewhere I Am MAXUS: maybe in the todo for vers 4 or 5 Chin Jut: I want to eat breakfast, because I have yet to do so Chin Jut: bbl I Am MAXUS: bye Chin Jut signed off at 2:48:15 PM. Those are our AOL Instant Messenger screen names. His wikipedia name isChinju Thanks for reading this, I hope you consider this because I believe thisidea has the potential to revolutionize not just the wikipedia, but allsorts of projects.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Single-sign-on
by Jimmy Wales 06 Jan '04

06 Jan '04
I think we should do this ASAP, because the issues are only goingto get harder. But the main issue, Timwi, is social -- there arecertainly cases where two different people have the same usernamebut in different languages.Timwi wrote:> > Thomas R. Koll wrote:> >On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 11:04:00PM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote:> >> >>Stuff like single sign on> >> >That is not possible anymore. It would be total chaos.> > I'm pretty confused at this assessment of yours.> > All it would take to achieve this would be to:> > - Add a field to the 'cur' and 'old' tables (or perhaps even just the > 'cur' table) to specify what language an article is in.> - Move all the articles from all languages into one database.> - Adapt code accordingly.> > Should be doable (given adequate manpower).> > Timwi> > > _______________________________________________> Wikitech-l mailing list> Wikitech-l(a)Wikipedia.org>http://wikipedia.mormo.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l>
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Donation History
by Adam Hunt 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04
I don't suppose that there is a history graph of the donations to Wikimedia. I was currious how much of the US$31k was raised as a result of Jimmy Wales' December 28letter and the associated Slashdot coverage. I was also wondering if Wikimedia'saccounting ledegers are open to the public. If not, why (this isn't a flame, I'm sure that there isa good enough reason)? Thanks for the great site. In my opinion Wikimedia deserves at leastanother US$30k in 2004. --adam -- "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserved neither and will lose both." --Benjamin Franklin "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt -- +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++Neu: Preissenkung für MMS und FreeMMS!http://www.gmx.net
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Wikimedia on-site documentation
by Dan Carlson 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04
For the past few weeks, I and some others have been in the process of setting up a new MediaWiki-based wiki site devoted to the "Star Trek" television series, called Memory Alpha. We have had few problems after the initial pains of actual installation; however, in trying to adapt the MW framework for our site, we've been running into a few snags.The main problem from my perspective is documentation for users of the wiki software in sites which are not straight-up mirrors of Wikipedia. We've been doing a rather haphazard job of copying over the various bits of documentation for using the site -- stuff like how to write an article, how to edit a page, the policies and guidelines, and other material.Our problem is that so many of these pages will definitely be useful, and although they'll most likely be adapted and changed as time goes on and we set up our own policies, I think it would still be useful if we could have something that we could start with.Currently, MediaWiki uses the website's name to create a separate namespace for documentation and other "meta" type pages. (I'm not referring to the Meta-Wikipedia, but rather the "Wikipedia:" pages on Wikipedia itself.) And I realize that this is probably a workable system...But, considering that the MediaWiki software is made publicly available for download and for establishing other websites, I wonder if it might be useful to have some kind of help "module" -- that is, a collected copy of the documentation pages that can be easily copied and set up on other sites. Possibly, this could also add a new "Help:" namespace which would help distinguish those pages for the general users. But that last isn't really necessary as far as the content goes, although it would make linking between the various help pages simpler if the namespace wasn't changed on each site.I'm not a programmer myself, although I've got a basic grasp of coding and I'm very slowly learning PHP. I could probably try to help if someone else wanted to try to implement this or something similar, but I thought that I would propose this idea to the group first, seeing as how many of you are a lot more familiar with the MW's inner workings.Thanks,Dan CarlsonAdministrator, Memory Alphahttp://memoryalpha.st-minutiae.com/
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01 Jan '04
I did some googling tonight and found some more information about ways todo some magic distributed caching.An example for a proprietary product doing this is CiscoDistributedDirector (19000$). Anybody?Ok, so here is the open source alternative:* Super Sparrowhttp://www.supersparrow.org/Open Source, linux, and tested. It's running for example vergenet, you cansee it in action athttp://www.vergenet.net/vergenet/.In combination with Linux Virtual Server& Heartbeat plus distributed squid'mirrors' this looks like a nice way for future growth.IMO this is nothing for the immediate future, but good to keep in mind andstart playing with. Maybe it would also be possible to ask Horms (SimonHorman,http://www.vergenet.net/~horms/) for advice, he definetely is anexpert in this field.Have a nice new year!Gabriel Wicke
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Mirror in Europe
by Jimmy Wales 31 Dec '03

31 Dec '03
Jake Nelson wrote:> The thought's crossed my mind a few times as well- they've got very good> connectivity, and IIRC, it's about $5k for a colo rack slot, which isn't> unreasonable for being outside of national jurisdictions.It might not be unreasonable if we were doing anything illegal orcontroversial. But we aren't. If anything, I'm going to bestruggling with my own moral reservations about government fundingrather than worrying about governments shutting us down. We're justthe sort of feel-good project that politicians love to take creditfor.Because of our license, copies of Wikipedia's database are already onprobably thousands of machines all over the world. The servers arebased in the U.S., where the First Amendment as well as the generalculture give us broad protection and political support.I think Havenco is neat, but for us, it's really not desirable.--Jimbo
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dns voodoo- first results
by Gabriel Wicke 31 Dec '03

31 Dec '03
Hi,i've googled around a bit about possible 'global load balancer' setups.A proprietary thing that does this is Cisco DistributedDirector. It'snot cheap- i've seen a price of 19000$. Nice if Cisco donated one...However, there seems to be a good Open Source alternative athttp://www.supersparrow.org/.I'm into party preparations, have fun tonight!Gabriel
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Nikos-Optim wrote:> I think wikipedia should look the same, have the same> policies and customs, and the same spirit, no matter> the language.In terms of very high level policies, I agree with you. But there arelots of little things that are dependent on culture. Let me give acouple of examples.1. I am told that in some languages, what is known as an encyclopediatends to include more 'mere definitions' that in English wouldproperly belong in a dictionary. So, if the French wikipedia choosesto draw the line differently than we do about that sort of thing, Idon't see a problem with that.2. It has been reported to me that on the Japanese wikipedia, thereis a stronger tendency to discuss things first on the talk page,reaching a consensus, and then to update the article page. That'sconsistent with Japanese culture. In en, of course, there's more of acustom of boldly updating pages and while simultaneously arguing aboutit on the talk pages. Either custom is valid, if it suits the peoplewho are doing the work.--Jimbo
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Re: Server update
by zocky 31 Dec '03

31 Dec '03
> > Jason's got Ursula back up, and our new machine is also installed. I'm> > copying files over so it can take over pliny's web work and let Ursula> > do just the db.>> Out of curiosity, why did Ursula go down? If the cause is unknown, could> there be an issue with our database that might cause such crashes?If machines keep dying, there could also be weird stuff happening with powersupply.z.
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On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 03:18:28AM +0000, Timwi wrote:> > Ray Saintonge wrote:> > >Nikos-Optim wrote:> >> >>I think wikipedia should look the same, have the same> >>policies and customs, and the same spirit, no matter> >>the language.> >> >That sounds like a very effective policy for driving people away.> > That sounds like a pretty bold statement without any real back-up ;-)The Esperanto has uppercase-letters for family-names, only one example.Asian, Hebrew and Arabic Wikipedias need a different look for the Interfacebecause they don't write left->right like we do.> It would certainly not drive *me* away -- quite to the contrary, it > would encourage me to contribute more on non-English Wikipedias.I doubt you really have enough time to contribute to more than one ortwo WPs.--http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world -.-http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 /|>http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com / \http://tinyurl.com/u6de
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