I don't propose to emit a DeprecationWarning at runtime yet. I'm surprised, but there is still quite a big number of PyPI top 5,000 projects happy with the getopt module (using it). Maybe it's just simple to use and it's good enough for their needs.

cc@hugovk

Just for reference, PEP 594said this aboutgetopt:

Thegetopt module mimics C’sgetopt() option parser.

Although users are encouraged to useargparse instead, thegetopt module is still widely used. The module is small, simple, and handy for C developers to write simple Python scripts.

As a baseline, searchinggrep.app for(import|from) modulename in public GitHub Python modules/scripts, there are:

• 177 000 files usingargparse
• 19 300 files usingclick
• 11 600 files usingoptparse
• 5 000 files usinggetopt

11 600 files using optparse
5 000 files using getopt

I would say that either we remove optparse deprecation, or we deprecate getopt in its documentation, to have a consistent maintenance guideline.

From a current usage perspective, it would seem so, though just playing devil's advocate here, arguablyoptparse andargparse have a much more similar design and fulfill a similar niche (therefore being more duplicative), whereasgetopt has some unique attributes—it is much simpler, is more familiar to developers from/interoperable with the Cgetopt(), and has a much smaller and easier to maintain implementation.

FWIW, I've always usedargparse myself urged others who do use the other two to migrate, as well as helped them do so. And I agree it would be best to point users toward one recommended stdlib argument parsing module that does a lot of nice things for users, even if it takes a bit more upfront effort and certainly isn't perfect.

Anyway, some additional datapoints for reference—usage in Python's own stdlib:

getopt usage: 20 code hits (plus the module's test suite)

• 3 usages in documented stdllib module CLIs, namely:
  • pydoc
  • timeit
  • webbrowser (see issuewebbrowser.py update to use argparse.py #68583)
• 8 usages in undocumented toy/test/utility CLIs for stdlib modules (seeDecide the fate of undocumented script behavior of some modules #93096 for broader discussion of what to do about those):
  • filecmp (93096 recommends keep/document)
  • fileinput (93096 recommends keep/document)
  • imaplib (demo, 93096 recommends move to docs)
  • mimetypes (PRgh-93096: Makemimetypes CLI tool public #93097 to document it)
  • modulefinder (93096 recommends keep/document)
  • pdb (93096 recommends keep/document)
  • quopri (93096 recommends keep/document)
  • tabnanny (93096 recommends keep/document)
• 2 usages in the vintagemake patchcheck (untabify.py,reindent.py)
• 3 uses in scripts in theTools directory:
  • freeze.py
  • i18n/msgfmpt.py
  • i18n/pygettext.py
• pythong-config.in; the argument parsing is rather complex and is basically the entire file, and its possible that it relies on strict POSIX compliance here, so it seems non-trivial to convert (especially if there isn't a test suite for it), but you seem to be the main current maintainer of this file, so up to you of course
• idlelib/pyshell.py, which appears to be a CLI for starting IDLE, also has some pretty involved manual parsing logic that I'd be hesitant to touch (especially with how it handles args passed along to child scripts)
• Lib/test/smtpd.py, former stdlib module removed and vendored into the CPython test suite (its CLI is not used, so could simply be removed)
• ndiff.py, an example code file included in the docs

For a point of reference—optparse usage: 6 code hits (plus 2 for the module itself and its test suite):

• 3 are in benchmark scripts underTools:ccbench.py,iobench.py and [stringbench.py](https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/main/Tools/stringbench/stringbench.py). Moving them topyperformance, yourpymicrobench` repo or simply removing them are also options on the table inMove Benchmarks From Tools/ to the pyperformance Repo #97680
• 1 is in theif __name__ == "__main__" block oftest_decimal.py, which is apparently a small custom runner for the decimal tests, and was to be updated to useargparse via the stale patch inClean up/refactor/make discoverable test_decimal #64207
• 2 uses as a CLI for theprofile andcProfile modules, tangentially addressed inDecide the fate of undocumented script behavior of some modules #93096

I created a discussion to specify "Soft Deprecation" in PEP 387:https://discuss.python.org/t/formalize-the-concept-of-soft-deprecation-dont-schedule-removal-in-pep-387-backwards-compatibility-policy/27957

I'm a -1 on deprecating the getopt module, even soft-deprecating it.

I'm an active user (I much prefer getopt over many of the framework style CLI tools out there for simple scripts) and so is CPython itself... it uses getopt() for parsing the command line options, so unless CPython starts using something else and then makes this available in the stdlib as well, we should keep support in Python's stdlib.

We already have PEP 594 which discusses the pros and cons of deprecating stdlib module. We don't really need the same discussion again every few years.

BTW: Just because a piece of code is older, established and has low maintenance, doesn't mean that we need to remove it. This only causes unnecessary churn, makes simple scripts without 3rd party dependencies more complex and doesn't buy us anything much.

BTW: Just because a piece of code is older, established and has low maintenance, doesn't mean that we need to remove it. This only causes unnecessary churn, makes simple scripts without 3rd party dependencies more complex and doesn't buy us anything much.

Just to note, as@vstinner mentions, the idea here is explicitlynot to remove it (for the forseeable future, and quite possibly for the life of Python itself), nor even to add a warning, just to let users know it is no longer actively developed and encourage them to use other, better alternatives unless they have a specific reason to use argparse.

That being said, while I certainly don't usegetopt myself, I share a lot of the sentiments in the rest of your message—unlikeoptparse, the overall design and use cases it serves are much more distinct fromargparse, the actual library code much simpler and requiring little to no maintenance, and it maintains compatibility with the arg parsing of many other widely used languages. I could seeoptparse being eventually removed in 5-10 years (perhaps coinciding with a major version bump) if usage numbers are low enough, but notgetopt.

So, maybe deprecation isn't the right framing here at all in this particular case. Maybe we should instead just tweak the language in the existing Note admonition along the lines ofmy comment, and perhaps move the Seealso up from being varied at the bottom to after the introduction—or perhaps even integrate the two.

I createdhttps://discuss.python.org/t/formalize-the-concept-of-soft-deprecation-dont-schedule-removal-in-pep-387-backwards-compatibility-policy/27957 to formalize the concept of "you should not use this thing but we don't plan to remove it neither". The idea here is to advice users who are learning Python to make a choice between the 3 flavors of command line parsing in the Python stdlib. If they read an old Python book or an old Python script and see getopt: should they still use it for new scripts in 2023? Is getopt still relevant in 2023? How are users supposed to figure it out?

My problem is that the regular "deprecation" markup is appealing to be followed soon by a DeprecationWarning in the code, and then end with the removal of the function. That's not my willingness here.

Thanks for the added comments,@CAM-Gerlach and@vstinner

I think that getopt and argparse/optparse serve different use cases and as such getopt fills its own niche. It's easy enough to use for beginners and pros wanting to write short scripts. It's also part of the POSIX standard and it has been used as basis for writing more evolved CLI interfaces.

There is duplication between argparse and optparse, since they both want to address more complex CLI parsing using an object oriented approach, so deprecating one or the other makes sense in the long run.

This doesn't apply to getopt and I don't think we should even "mark" it as obsolete, since it is not. The getopt docs already point to argparse as a possible alternative, so I don't think there's anything actionable here.

BTW: This ticket had me actually looking at the source code of the Python getopt module and I was surprised to find that getopt is only emulating the C POSIX function in Python instead of directly exposing the emulation we have for it in Python as _PyOS_GetOpt(). I found this ticket from 2000 which describes how the emulation came to be:#33417 and this is the discussion that led to it:https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/7HVUOYNP24WH4N6Y4YYIDRUDD7VJU43F/ ... I guess command line parsing usually is not time criticial, so no one ever bothered. I might change this for eGenix PyRun, since I use getopt to emulate the CPython command line parsing and doing this in Python is definitely causing a slow down in startup time.

To give you an analogy to what I'm trying to explain:

Would you declare bicycles obsolete, just because we now have cars ?

Would you declare bicycles obsolete, just because we now have cars ?

Well, the example at the end ofhttps://docs.python.org/dev/library/getopt.html doc shows that argparser does the same with way less lines of code and likely better error messages when the command line is invalid (better thanassert False, "unhandled option"). Code using getopt usually use global variables, whereas argparse provides a convient "namespace" objects (usually, it's stored as anargs variable in code).

@malemburg 's comments much more concisely and elegantly articulate some of the potential concerns Ishared above, at least with the current "deprecation" language.

At the same time, I also agree that we should be steering most users, especially newer ones, towardargparse (or other options), unless they have a specific reason to usegetopt (familiarity, interoperability, or existing code), which the existing docs do make an attempt at, but I do think it could be clearer.

As such, perhaps an agreeable balance here would be to

• Improve the note language as suggested above to be clearer as to the module's status and nudge users who don't already fit the intended use case to consider alternatives
• Move theseealso to just below the intro section rather than buried at the bottom of everything to make the links to alternatives more visible
• And perhaps, depending on the outcome of the Discourse discussion, consider using a "discouraged" directive or whatever it ends up being here...but I can certainly see the argument that this could send the wrong message to some users, so not sure about that.

Well, the example at the end ofhttps://docs.python.org/dev/library/getopt.html doc shows that argparser does the same with way less lines of code

This is not really true, since the argparse snippet at the end only shows the parsing declaration part and not the processing of the parsed output. In reality, the needed code for argparse will be more verbose. See e.g.https://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/6e2e5adc0400 where this exercise was done.

But that's not really the point. getopt() is a very simple tool to use, whereas argparse and optparse are more complex tools, which also require more programming knowledge to be used correctly.

As such, perhaps an agreeable balance here would be to

* Improve the note language as suggested above to be clearer as to the module's status and nudge users who don't already fit the intended use case to consider alternatives

Fair enough, though, such language already exists in the docs:https://docs.python.org/3.13/library/getopt.html

* Move the `seealso` to just below the intro section rather than buried at the bottom of everything to make the links to alternatives more visible

Wouldn't that be duplication of the note at the start of the page ? I wouldn't mind, but this would also look somewhat odd -- much like a road block barrier... which brings us to the next point...

* And perhaps, depending on the outcome of the Discourse discussion, consider using a "discouraged" directive or whatever it ends up being here...but I can certainly see the argument that this could send the wrong message to some users, so not sure about that.

Regardless of the outcome of the Discourse discussions, I'm not in favor of calling getopt() discouraged technology, as already explained.

Fair enough, though, such language already exists in the docs:https://docs.python.org/3.13/library/getopt.html

Yup; seemy review suggestion above for my suggested tweaks to said language in the vain described in my quote. Feedback welcome, of course.

Wouldn't that be duplication of the note at the start of the page?

Yeah, I was thinking of perhaps consolidating the two, but not totally sure there's a good way to structure that, so maybe best to just leave things as they are on that aspect.

I wouldn't mind, but this would also look somewhat odd -- much like a road block barrier... which brings us to the next point...

It's not that uncommon to have seealsos in the section intros these days; it doesn't imply the module is deprecated/discouraged. But I do agree it can be duplicative of the note, and not sure there's an easy way to make those two work together, so again maybe best to lave it.

Regardless of the outcome of the Discourse discussions, I'm not in favor of calling getopt() discouraged technology, as already explained.

I'm also somewhat hesitant to call it such at leastin general (as opposed to just for new code for users who don't have a specific reason to use it over other more sophisticated options); the dependence on that discussion had more to do with exactly what the framing and wording of such a "soft deprecation"/"discouragement" is. Of the examples cited there, this one certainly seems to me to be on a different tier from the others in terms of the applicability of such, given the others all had direct, often drop-in-ish replacements and/or some form of actual problem with using them.

PEP 387 got updated to define "Soft Deprecation":https://peps.python.org/pep-0387/#soft-deprecation

I updated the PR to onlysoft deprecate the getopt module. If tomorrow, the getopt development becomes active again, we can simply remove this mention in the documentation and continues as nothing happened :-)

A soft deprecation is only a mention in the documentation: no warnings is issued, no removal is scheduled.

Note: I just added "soft deprecated" to the documentation glossary.

I changed optparse deprecation to asoft deprecation, since there is clearly no plan to remove this module. I just want to make it more explicit.