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From: "Robert J. Sanford, Jr." <rsanford@nolimitsystems.com>

To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>

Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?

Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:02:04 -0500

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Status: OR

note - i don't work for any of the companies whose products

are mentioned below. i have performed evaluations of these

products and the support provided when attempting to determine

what platform my company's systems should run on. unfortunately,

i did not choose orion and i am suffering for it now...

some goober blathered thusly:

> Have you ever actually used Java on an enterprise-level

> application? Ever see the Tomcat webserver? It uses

> 100MB of memory, drives the load on our server up to 8,

> and doesn't serve nearly as fast apache. Do you really

> want that in your database?

first - don't complain about java because you or someone

in your group/department/company made a poor decision on

what tools to use. that's like complaining about mexican

food when the only experience you have is eating an out-

dated frozen burrito from the 7-11 freezer.

when looking at the performance of java you have to take

a look at two things - first you have to compare various

java implementations against each other and then you have

to compare the best java implementations against native

c/c++ code. the following link does that. the java tests

include tomcat, orion, websphere, and resin. jrun and

weblogic were originally included in the testing but

were both removed at their companies' request.

the tests also compare orion vs microsoft asp running on

win2k and iis5. all tests run on the same hardware.

what i believe these tests clearly demonstrate is that

java is not the problem, the implementation applications

based on java is. i also do not believe that tomcat is

a fair representation of java performance in that it is

intended to be a reference implementation. as such, the

code base should sacrifice performance for clarity.

http://www.orionserver.com/benchmarks/benchmark.html

while not in the benchmark i would also like to

recommend jetty as an app server. it is an opensource,

100% java web and application server. in its base form

it is "just" a web, servlet, and jsp engine. it does,

however, have contributed code providing integration

with other j2ee opensource projects such as the JBoss

EJB engine.

you can find the jetty home page at:

http://jetty.mortbay.com/

and then they blathered some more:

> Compare the speed of Oracle 8 with 8i if you don't

> believe me. The stability is also much worse. Ever

> see a JVM on any platform that didn't crash if you

> looked at it cockeyed? Ever really trust the garbage

> collection? I don't. I've found a memory leak in IBM

> developed java libraries. Gotta restart that app

> every once in a while to reclaim system resources it

> gobbled up and never gave back.

some mention was made regarding the performance of

the oracle8i application server. well, oracle has

realized that their performance was sub-optimal and

rectified the situation by licensing the orion server

for oracle9i. while money and politics most certainly

play a part in any licensing arrangement they must

also realize that making customers happy through the

performance of their applications will lead to more

money. the link to the press release is below.

http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?759347.html

all of that being said...

i don't think that the person that started this thread

did anything wrong by making the request they did. that

is what opensource is all about - contributions, even

just contributions of ideas, are welcomed. even so, there

are several options that i see for getting it implemented:

1) its an open source project so implement it yourself.

while i have never worked on modifying the code base

i am extremely confident that the current developers

will be more than willing to give you advice and

pointers.

2) if #1 is not feasible either because you don't have

the time, the inclination, or the experience then

you can write a contract that will pay one of the

postgres developers to implement it for you.

3) if that isn't feasible you can try to get a volunteer

to do so.

4) if that isn't feasible then you either have to live

with what you have, go elsewhere, or be quiet.

to the person that blathered thusly in response to the

request for java:

> Merits of the language notwithstanding, I'd rather

> not have a buggy, still under development

> (depreciating everything under the sun with every

> new iteration) JVM parasite in my DB.

informed and intelligent debate is good. given that i

believe such to be true, i would request that you

refrain from blathering such vitriol and uninformed

nonsense. not only is it for the good of the people

on the list who don't want to hear it but it will

also do you good by not telling everyone out there

that you are a very silly person that doesn't deal

with logic and/or facts.

to everyone else on the list - if we all contribute

a penny we could probably buy enough burritos from

7-11 to make sure that his hands and mouth are busy

for a good long while.

rjsjr

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