Overview: This page is fordisputing theexistence of terms or senses. It is for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets theattestation criterion as specified inCriteria for inclusion, usually by providing citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic or “sum of parts” should be posted toWiktionary:Requests for deletion. Requests to confirm that a certain etymology is correct should go in theEtymology scriptorium, and requests to confirm pronunciation is correct should go in theTea Room.
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Assert that the term is in clearly widespread use. (If this assertion is not obviously correct, or is challenged by multiple editors, it will likely be ignored, necessitating the following step.)
Cite, on the article page, usage of the word inpermanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year. (Many languages are subject to other requirements; seeWT:CFI.)
In any case, advise on this page that you have placed the citations on the entry page.
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Latest comment:2 years ago24 comments6 people in discussion
Google News results are exclusively from Falun Gong-related sources (soundofhope, epochtimes, ntdtv). Also probably missing a context label regarding connotation? —Suzukaze-c◇◇08:28, 3 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
For Chinese, I've added four quotes atCitations:中共病毒. Two are from Epoch Times-related media. The earliest we have is from 陳泱潮, who does not seem to be affiliated with Falun Gong, and another is from梁文韜, who isn't known to be affiliated with Falun Gong either. 中共病毒 should becited. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }19:00, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
The terms were coined, likely partly in condemnation of the Chinese Communist Party's cover-up of the epidemic in Wuhan. --Apisite (talk)08:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
If all cites are coming from Falun Gong-related sources as suggested by Suzukaze-c, we probably shouldn't consider them independent sources. We need to look outside of Falun Gong sources. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }21:53, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Why? There's 40,000 to millions of Falun Gong followers out there; that's more than speakers of many languages we document here. If three leftist German newspapers used a term, we wouldn't consider them not independent sources.--Prosfilaes (talk)23:26, 23 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
It seems like it can be traced back to even earlier sources that use 中共病毒 not to refer to COVID-19, but other viruses that have been associated with China, like H5N1 (I think), as inthis article. But again, it comes from Epoch Times. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }20:44, 11 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
I put four instances in Japanese atCitations:中共肺炎. One is from Epoch Times, one from Nico Nico and cited to Epoch Times, but one is in Mainichi Shimbun (quoting a Japanese politician), and one on a surfing blog. They don't span more than one year, but they seem to be more or less independent (discounting the two Epoch-sourced quotes).Cnilep (talk)08:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)Reply
I added another from this past week, so now they span nearly one year (about a week short). It's from 'G-News'; I don't know if that is Falun Gong-related, but the story certainly seems anti-PRC. I've also added "sometimes offensive" to the entry, as the usage is exclusionary and in at least one case has been called "hate speech".Cnilep (talk)01:14, 7 March 2021 (UTC)Reply
I don't know who publishes the web pages or what their archiving policies are, but they include links. You can check them out if you have any doubt. (The exception is Mainichi Shimbun, which is a national newspaper and is durably archived in libraries and databases.)Cnilep (talk)00:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: Um, OK. It's slightly annoying that some editors suggest web pages are not acceptable while other insist thatonly materials available online are acceptable, but such is the nature of a large group project, I suppose.Cnilep (talk)23:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Cnilep: Thanks. I don't think only materials available online are acceptable, just preferred (according to how I am readingWT:ATTEST). I don't think web pages are acceptable unless they are somehow durably archived. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }23:15, 7 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Japan Business Press appears to self-archive (their members page says "more than 30,000 archived articles over the 10 years since the first issue"), but is not in Lexis/Nexis or Proquest. If that's acceptable, it's the third archived (but not easily accessible) attestation.Cnilep (talk)03:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Actually, the durably archived ones currently there are only from 2020, but Epoch Times continues to use the phrase.Cnilep (talk)03:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:4 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
The reading and definition looks suspiciously like a ghost entry inherited from earlier lexicographers. The source seems to be the《觀象玩占》, an astrology book attributed toLi Chunfeng. A passage from the book reads辰星…一曰免星link, where the character免 could have been a misprint of something including兔 or㲋. The《古今圖書集成》, quoting from the passage, corrects this character as毚link to the page.《集韻》 has an entry毚兔【辰星別名，或省】link to page, which in theJiyun formula seems to say these two characters毚 and兔 were considered variants to each other without specifying the linguistic context or referring to attestable literature. Overall thetextual quality of these appearances has been subpar, and the reading, especially the tonal value in modern Mandarin, is not well-supported.
@Justinrleung, thank you very much for the research. If you ask me, I can only say "textual corruption", which is a huge problem with theShiji in general. I checked the (Semi-)Critical Edition by Gu Jiegang et al. whichreads毚 in the passage quoting the lost text of Huangfu Mi, and免in the main text. OTOH, the《廣雅》 passage as quoted in theShiji CE reads兔, but the《廣雅》 was a secondary source considerably later than theShiji, and its own textual history may just be as bewildering. For example,this passage from the purported Ming-era edition (i.e. same as the 古今逸史 edition you quoted above) clearly reads免. I haven't got the time to dig into the critical edition of《廣雅疏義》, which you can readhere. --Frigoris (talk)19:35, 29 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Frigoris: 蘇州方言詞典 defines it as “句末助詞，表示變化或新情况，相當于北京話句末助詞‘了’” and lists these examples: “吾吃仔飯～｜大家來吧，吃飯～｜落雨～｜天要好～｜再等等，俚馬上來～｜吾一走，屋裏嘸不人燒飯～｜俚葛閑話好相信，太陽要從西天出來～！”. 上海方言詞典 is a little more vague and defines it as “語氣詞，表時態，用於句子末尾，相當於北京話的‘了’” and lists these examples: “落雨～｜好～，𧟰吵～｜我明朝就要回屋裏去～｜儂再稍爲等一歇，我已經辣着鞋子～，就要好快～”. 上海话大词典 divides it into several definitions:
Bai was written in chinese characters in a system called 僰文, using the characters to represent Bai words and written in a Bai syntax. As for the character itself, it appears in 山花碑/词记山花·咏苍洱境碑, which is written in 僰文, in the line：煴煊茶水（口㱔）𪢂呼 （translation into Chinese:热煮茶水相对饮)[2]，due to the fact that it is written in a Bai syntax, it would be fair to assume it was probably composed in Bai, therefore be pronounced in Bai --Henry Wonh (talk)01:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I've checked 赵橹's book and it seems like the text is slightly different from the blog post, and it's translated slightly differently as well. Either way, I've incorporated it into the entry, so this should becited. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Henry Wonh: Actually, one more question. Is it actually Central Bai we're dealing with, or some other variety of Bai? The poem was written many centuries ago, but I'm not sure how much we actually know about the Bai languages at that time. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Justinrleung: Well, even though the stella was found in Dali city, it southern Bai territory, most sources claim central and southern Bai are mutually intelligible and are essentially dialects of each other, so I wouldn’t think it would pose a big problem, maybe merge the multiple Bai subsections?—-Henry Wonh (talk)07:49, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Henry Wonh: If it's in Southern Bai territory, one way we could go about this is to assume that it's Southern Bai, which would mean it's not cited for Central Bai. However, since this was written long ago, I wonder how much the Bai varieties have diverged then. Are there 僰文 texts from elsewhere? Merging Bai varieties is a bigger discussion to be had since it'll affect all other Bai entries we have. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }14:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
ニット(nitto,“nit”) -- Much less common. I do find this listed in my JA ↔ EN medical dictionary alongside alternative formニト(nito), and also in a scientific jargon glossary with a separate sense of "candela per square meter". Confirming this one in the wild is much more difficult, however. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig22:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Checkingknit#Noun(which I probably should have done beforehand: I actually wasn't aware thatknit was usable as a noun, and believed the entry to be a suspicious mess created by equating etymology with definition, "ニット is from Englishknit and therefore meansknit"), I see that it means (1 of 2 definitions) "knitter garment".
I also added a sense "knitwear" toニット, so I suppose the RFV for this sense is essentially pointless, and I'veremoved the sense (maintaining thatknit as a noun is not an intelligible definition) and the tag fromニット.
Regardingニット(nitto,“nit”): I found several mentions of a product calledニットピッカー (nit-picker), either on shopping sites (which tend not to be durably archived) or mommy blogs such asthis. I wonder if that is just transliteration of a product name originally in English, though. I also found a 2019 translation ofVictorian Lady's Guide etc., which uses ruby in a way that suggests readers would not recognize the katakana word.
ニットピッキング
I associate that style of ruby in film subtitles, where they want to include the (transliterated) non-Japanese word and also a translation.Cnilep (talk)05:01, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Tooironic Seems like you added these in thisdiff.Dr. Eye Chinese English Bilingual Dictionary gives "the solution to a problem" as one of the definitions. "Solution" is also given inmdbg (not that this is necessarily right). "Result; outcome" might be mergeable with "place to settle", I think, which seems to be a little bit inaccurate without something like "result" sinceGuoyu Cidian andLiang'an Cidian define that sense with 歸宿 and 結果/結局. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }16:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
The sense "chapter" may come from "rule" or "order, arrangement", but I can't find "order, arrangement" at the first 500 of zhwikisource. Any evidence before Han dynasty?EdwardAlexanderCrowley (talk)04:32, 7 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Isn't the RFV about the definition item "order"? In particular whatorder means here, since the word can mean quite different things in English. Currently the sense 3 refers to "rules", which the usex suggests reference to the formal regulations, constitutions, charters, etc. It seems to me that whoever first put the definition "order" here refers to the more abstract and possibly more informal sense of "the quality of being organized", which I think matches the usex I just added (雜亂無章).
The孔子家語 can match as many Han-era epigraphical texts as it may and is still considered pseudepigraphy, not because the text is "fake", but because the authorship very likely doesn't match how it has been claimed to be in the literary tradition. In fact there's little agreement about the true "authorship" if it has one. The text includes many passages that are paralleled in other classical works. If we can find them, it's preferable to use those more certain texts than the secondary literature. --Frigoris (talk)08:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Frigoris,Crowley666 Yes this sense should refer to being orderly, not to rules or distinctions, as this is how other dictionaries describe it (eg. as條理); Kroll'sStudent's Dictionary writes "clearly and properly displayed, well-ordered". Other dictionaries all seem to reference 雜亂無章, but I think it is reasonable to say 章 has extended beyond "rule" here, for example Hanyu Da Cidian gives 無章 as 没有次序.
In some words, 章 seems close to meaning order, tied together with the sense "composition; structure". For example章法 relates to the organization/arrangement of text, and成章 relates to a text being well-presented/composed.
Also, here's a line fromChinese characters on Wikipedia: 'Some believe that the name [章草], based on 章 meaning "orderly", arose because the script was a more orderly form of cursive'. It cites Qiu XiguiChinese writing (文字學概要). Indeed that says '[章] means "orderliness, regulation"' (「章」字有條理，法則等意義) towards the end of section 5.4. Actually the author goes further than Wikipedia suggests, saying that most people agree this explanation is likely correct, in which case 章草 would serve as another example of the sense "orderly".ChromeGames (talk)10:47, 5 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Rfv-sense: in advance; beforehand. Tagged by @Tooironic but not listed. This sense is common and is found in Pleco. Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian seem to treat it as a verb, though. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }23:25, 20 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
From my limited searching, this spelling only seems to be used in Japanese works that quote Chinese texts.
Since this kind of usage does indeed happen, and since Japanese readers would indeed read this string with the expected Japanese pronunciation, I think it merits a Japanese entry. However, such an entry definitely needs to be clear about context and usage -- in Japanese writing, the term簡体字(kantaiji) is much more commonly used to mean "Simplified Chinese".
FWIW, I find more than one hit at Google Books:google books:"規範字" "は" nets me 223 ostensible hits, collapsing to 80 when paging through. Many of these have no preview and the relevant string is not apparent in the snippets shown, but there are enough that do show the string in context to meet CFI. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:4 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion
He was on an editing spree today. I didn't think much of it but this edit ([4]) looked weird to me. Could somebody maybe check this edit (and maybe some others) to make sure, this user isn't vandalizing? --Fytcha (talk)19:07, 13 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Ya, apparently she's working through some kind of medical reference and hitting a lot of anatomy terms in Japanese. And, unfortunately, making a bit of a hash of it, as at鎖骨 or鎖骨下筋.
She's wrong often enough, and she's bull-headed enough, that I'd be tempted to block her to spare us the work of vetting and cleaning up after her -- but she jumps around IP addresses so much that I don't think this would be at all effective.<sigh.../> ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:45, 24 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Suzukaze-c: I don't know if I can contribute much: although I did save some data when they were blocked and there was a reason to run checkuser on them, this IP range has no connection to anything in that data and I have no grounds for using the checkuser tool now to compare browser data- no one is blocked, and no one is using their anonymity to get away with anything.
The abuse filters we used to stop the Sky UK, Thai and Pays de Loire IPs won't work very well here, because there are lots of entries with both Vietnamese and Japanese sections, so there would be lots of collateral damage- we would be blocking Vietnamese IPs from editing their own language. It would require a more sophisticated regex to verify which language section they were editing, and I'm not exactly a regex master. Coming up with a list of IP ranges to trigger the regex checks is another challenge (fetching wikitext is very expensive as abuse filter operations go, so I don't want to do it for every single IP edit).Chuck Entz (talk)00:31, 26 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Sense: tire, languor
Although深度,進度,震度,心土,伸度 andSindh can all be read しんど, I'm not aware of this sense of the word. I wonder if the person who added it (an IP address apparently at Peking University) confused it withしんどい (maybe しんどさ)? Speaking of which, the same IP address edited the latter page one minute after they created this one, suggesting that しんどい comes from しんど. I don't think that is the case, either. Am I mistaken?Cnilep (talk)06:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I saw the entry in KDJ only after I had posted this. I've never seen the word used (as far as I can recall), though. So to my question, "Am I mistaken?" apparently the answer is "yes". It's not the first time, and probably won't be the last.Cnilep (talk)23:46, 24 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:4 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Contemporary senses of Etymology 1, あじきない (contra Etymology 2, あじけない, with the same kanji and essentially the same meaning)
I added three quotations before I stopped to think that, based on the writing system, there may no reasonable way to argue whether these are the first or second Etymology.
PS: Thinking more specifically about the challenge thatCnilep brings up about identifying etym and sense, I see that the KDJ entry specifically indicates that theあじけない(ajikenai) reading correlates to sense ③ for theあじきない(ajikinai) reading. So presumably any quote that looks more clearly to be senses ① or ② forあじきない(ajikinai) thus cannot fit forあじけない(ajikenai), ruling out that reading. Likewise, the DDJS entry ties sense ① forあじきない(ajikinai) withあじけない(ajikenai), while the other senses forあじきない(ajikinai) appear to be specific to that reading. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig19:05, 24 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung,Tooironic: This sense ("dwelling" = "house" but more formal) exist in Japanese and Korean and also CC-CEDICT (along with "somebody else's house"). I have just created a Japanese and Korean (hanja) entry. I couldn't find anything solid to confirm this sense in Chinese butthis search may give interesting matches. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)02:57, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: 住户. The example given in the dictionary is "这个村子有百十户~". And also, "遠上寒山石徑斜，白雲深處有人家" by 杜牧, "高秋水村路，隔㟁見人家" by 李中, "三藏道：「悟空，前面人家，可以借宿，明早再行。」" and "只奔山南坡下，忽見山凹之間有一座草舍人家。" in 西遊記, etc. --H2NCH2COOH (Talk)08:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
Rfv-senses 17-21: "thing;to exploit, to accept; currency; tomb" (moved to the end of the entry for now)
These senses were all added inone edit along with many other senses that I can account for. However I'm having trouble verifying these couple of senses. Any ideas where they come from or where they are used? Perhaps as alternative forms?
Speaking of alternative forms, the page currently has a lot of them. But I'm reluctant to call 采 an alternative form of other characters like採 and彩, because they seem like they might be alternative forms of each other rather than having one character be the main character (although certainly one is more specialized). Perhaps there's a better way to organize things?ChromeGames (talk)02:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
@ChromeGames: These senses seem to be in Hanyu Da Cidian (at least).
@Justinrleung: Thanks for confirming their presence, I wonder if I have a different edition/version of Hanyu Da Cidian though since I don't see all of those definitions that you mention? Although I do find:
The hits atgoogle:"ブス" "電源" suggest that this is a domain-specific jargon term, shortening ofブスバー(busubā), in turn apparently an alternative forバスバー(basubā). If we have any appropriate labels or categories for "spelling pronunciation" to describe the shift from/a/ inバス(basu) to/u/ inブス(busu), that would apply here. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig19:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 years ago13 comments5 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-senses:alternative form ofては (Etymology 3); andshort forではないか (Etymology 4)
Of Etymology 3, Eirikr says, “How so? Examples? Unclear that this etym even warrants inclusion.” and “Etym 3 is just a usage of the particle combo in Etym 1, whereas ては would presumably be fromって(tte) +は(wa)”. [Etymology 1 is ‘Compound of で and は’, ‘at, in’.]
It is similarly not clear to me that this is a separate lexical item.
Of Etymology 4, Eirikr says, “Etym 4 is not a verb, but a different use of the particle combo in Etym 1, eliding the negative coupulaない(nai) and question particleか(ka).”
Note that I changed the POS from verb-form to particle. Even so, I do not think that this is a lexical item as such. It is just a use of the Etymology 1 sense.
(Note, too, that I tried to rectify a separate issue noted by Eirikr: “No appropriate sense to cover the では in それでは, so the Etym 2 section is effectively broken (user goes to それでは, gets no explanation)”. That is not related to this RfV, but others might want to see if you disagree with what I did.)
I spoke to some people I regard as experts, people who teach and/or write about Japanese grammar. We agree that forms such as嚙んではいない consist ofVerb +は +いる. No one I asked thought that ては / では in this construction is a suffix.Cnilep (talk)23:35, 9 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
As for etym 4, being a very new usage, so it's not in common dictionaries, and at least not a verb since it's not a conjugated word. The word which has been elided can be not only ないか, but also polite forms ないですか and ありませんか, honorific form ございませんか and etc. If there were an improvement, it might be to explain it as "negative copula + か".
Etym 3 occurs when the verb root is ended in nasal (-g-, -n-, -m-). で in etym 3 is originated from classical verbつ(tsu), while で in etym 1 is from particleにて(nite), so they are different things.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk)18:43, 10 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
@荒巻モロゾフ: But those are not lexical items. Those are grammatical constructions. The ～て or ～で is part of the verb (adjective, etc.) conjugation, while は, as well as ない, ございません, or what have you are separate lexical items. Similarly, whether one of those items is elided is a matter of grammar and/or usage, not a part of the lexicon.
As such they are likely to be found in grammars, and not in dictionaries. See for exampleNihongo Bunkei Jiten (1998):
【ては】
［N／Na では］
［A-くては］
［V-ては］
述語のテ形と「は」の組合さったもの。
(“ては. noun では, adj-くては, verb-ては. Combination of thete-form of the predicate with ‘wa’.”)
Hm, that it exists is not really disputed. The appropriate treatment IMO would be RFD or RFC.では andては (verb suffix) should be kept or deleted together as a set. —Fish bowl (talk)00:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense:In Man'yōshū I, 2, the first verse 山常庭 (Yamato ni wa) proves the historical use of the Man'yōgana 庭 used phonographically to represent the particle には (ni wa) introducing the place where an action is done.— Thisunsigned comment was added by2.36.88.4808:49 (talk •contribs).
User:Poketalker added two rfv-sense requests on 26 February 2017.
(historical) place where something is done
(regional) at the entrance of a house, a dirt floor
Per 2.36.88.48's comment, the first of these seems to beateji for the particles には. If that is the case, that would make it archaic (and perhaps uncommon, or obsolete) rather than historical. It would also be a postposition or particle rather than a noun.Cnilep (talk)23:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
For the current sense 2 ("place where something is done"), if we view this as asman'yōgana, this is arguably not entry-worthy, as that is a spelling convention and not a lexical item -- as the anon correctly notes, this is simply locative particleに(ni) + topic / contrastive particleは(wa). And as @Cnilep notes, this is a particle combination, not a noun. Moreover, this usage Old Japanese, not Japanese.
That said, thereis a noun庭(niwa) with the sense of"place where something is done". The lack of any usex obscured this. My local copy of Daijirin gives examples like 「学びの―」「裁きの―」, where the preceding genitiveの(no) means that, grammatically, thisniwa must be a noun. The entry also includes a quote from theNihon Shoki: 「すなわち霊畤(ﾏﾂﾘﾉﾆﾜ)を鳥見の山の中に立てて/日本書紀（神武訓）」 (clearly showing use in a compound noun), and one from theMan'yōshū: 「武庫の海の―良くあらし漁(ｲｻﾘ)する/万葉 3609」 (here coming again after aの(no), marking this as a noun).
I am not sure if the noun sense for"place where something is done" is still current, however -- the quotes are OJP and not JA.
The current sense 3 ("at the entrance of a house, a dirt floor") is included in Daijirin as well, with a quote from a浄瑠璃(jōruri,“street theater, storytelling with musical accompaniment, ballad or chant”) play dating to 1720: 「そろばん追取―へくわらりと投げ捨たり/浄瑠璃・天の網島（中）」.
No offense directed at you personally. But I am really frustrated at seeing inline citations being removed. I use dictionaries to find "how" and "when" a word and sense have been in use. It supports the given sense as well as etymology. I am most interested in the older citations, but any are better than none. Without any supporting citations, why should I believe any of the definitions given?
While I was not involved in this entry, I have spent many pain staking hours searching and adding citations to find them gone several years later. When there are dozens or even hundreds of citations, movingsome to the citation page may make sense, while prioritizing older and relevant citations. But very few entries in this entire project have that many citations. Most entries and senses are missing them completely, which really hurts this dictionary.Bendono (talk)11:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
RFV passed for sense "place where something is done". No citations yet for "dirt floor", but it is in other dictionaries.Cnilep (talk)00:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
Added byUser:0.02s, who included the labeldialect and asked "what dialect?"
Nihon Hōgen Daijiten includes したれば (alternate form of したら, which in turn is a Tohoku conjunction meaningそうすると,それなら(“if that is the case”)), as well as したれる (form of the verb湿る(shitoru,“be damp”)) and ごしたれる (form of the Tohoku/Hokuriku verbごしむく(goshimuku,“die”)).Nihon Kokugo Daijiten includes したれ‐ど and したれ‐ども, which it derives respectively asする +たり +ど andする +たり +ども (both roughly “doing in spite of”, if I understand correctly), but doesn't mark them as dialect. BothDigital Daijisen andShin Wa-Ei Chūjiten have してやる, variously glossed as “do for (someone)”, “trick (someone)”, or “do as one pleases”. I can't find したれ as such, though, and don't know whether it might be a form of Tohoku したら or some other (regional? class?) variant of してやる (or maybe just して?).Cnilep (talk)02:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
I see a hit over atNihon Jiten. Theirentry for したれ (shitare) indicates that this is阿波弁(Awa-ben), the dialect used inTokushima prefecture on Shikoku. Apparently it's a contraction ofしてやれ(shite yare). There's alsoa separate entry for the Kansai dialect phraseどないかしたれや(donai ka shitare ya,loosely, something like “just do whatever already”), where thisしたれ(shitare) appears to be again a contraction ofしてやれ(shite yare).
So, should it be したれ, or したる? The current Digital Daijisen in Kotobank has為て遣ったり but (oddly) not 為て遣る. (It does, however, gloss 為て遣ったり as 「してやる」 + 「たり」.) I can't tell if this is some kind of defective paradigm, or just "dialect" enough that the editors neglect it a bit.Cnilep (talk)02:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
FWIW, just in preliminary poking, I found that the JA WP has a hint of this atja:w:ポア, a disambig page -- but the mentioned article about this particular aspect of Tibetan Buddhism, atja:w:ポア (チベット仏教), is a redlink.
I've rewrittenポア, butポワ still needs to be examined, and the claim I made about ポワ there (based on the Japanese Wikipedia page) should be verified. —Fish bowl (talk)21:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 year ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: (modern fiction, women's speech) I; me (used by haughty women of the highest classes of society)
The entry was previously tagged for cleanup as "Very confusing entry, requires clarification and formatting; expansion also needed". I've done my best to clean it up, but I don't know why there are two senses both glossed, essentially, as "I". (The other is: "(archaic, women's speech, humble) I; me".) I guess that if the word is used in contemporary fiction with a different connotation, this might make sense, but I haven't seen such use myself. I should note, though, that Japanese sources say the the pronoun came to be associated with samurai women in early Modern Japanese, so that may be a clue.Cnilep (talk)06:28, 13 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
The Wikipedia article on pronouns includes commentary, but no usage examples. If the usage is easy to find, then could you please add some? Thanks,Cnilep (talk)07:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
They don't require independent verrification. 简化字总表 states that any trad.-simp. pair in Table 2 is generally applicable to other characters, even if it isn't listed in Table 3. --H2NCH2COOH (Talk)04:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
The problem with clinging to attestation in Chinese is that there are tons of variants (not just simplified Chinese, but also ancient ones), and it is simply impossible to do in practice. And since simplified Chinese is a relatively new and "artificial" thing, it is hard to find cases where the simplified forms of these rare characters being used. However, the Table 2 did tell us how they should theoretically be simplified when used (since the writing system is "artificial"). This rule has been generally applied to rare characters in classical Chinese publications, and there should not be any exception in these cases when they appear (unless you are talking about the guideline of the latest standard, which recommends traditional forms if outside 通用规范汉字表: but that would probably be even more dreadful to deal with). --H2NCH2COOH (Talk)20:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Well I do think there is something questionable. Not about the simplification rule, but the existence of the supposed "traditional" forms in Chinese -- are they really used in ancient texts? Or are they just made up for names? --H2NCH2COOH (Talk)21:00, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
𨍶 and 𦦗 are presented in Kangxi Dictionary and some others, so I believe they are actually used in ancient text and their simplified form can be derived accordingly. 𠙦 seems like a variant form of煢 so they both can possibly be treated as variants. --H2NCH2COOH (Talk)15:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung To be clear, I'm referring to ancient forms only cited in historical dictionaries, such as the ones Fish bowl mentions. If those are already covered by the LDL policy due to being pre-modern anyway then fair enough.Theknightwho (talk)14:40, 4 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
I am sceptical that this one can be attested, because 𬠰 (U+2C830) is only used in Taiwanese names[5] and has the reading xué[6]. I'm quite relaxed about including simplified forms of rare characters, but the prima facie evidence suggests this is unlikely to be real.Theknightwho (talk)16:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Again, I'm sceptical of this one, because 𣞁 (U+23781) is used in Taiwanese names[7] with the reading róng[8]. @ND381 is that how it's also used in Hong Kong? I assume so from the definition, but I just want to check that that usage applies to both.Theknightwho (talk)16:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Theknightwho: It's probably not an everyday character, so asking anyone about how it's used would not give you much info. I did find 𣞁 in names of people from ancient texts, which I've put inCitations:𣞁. As for whether the simplified form is found, it might be worth looking for simplified reprints of those ancient texts, but I haven't been able to find any of those. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }19:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
The traditional form has been made, however unreliable it may be.IRG N2835 (re-)sources the traditional form at Vol. 1, pg 424 of the Hanyu Da Cidian. (汉语大词典) I have always been skeptical of GS-source characters which were probably submitted during the early 90s and lost to time, so I think the original evidence (or any remainder) of the simplified form is gone.Gold295857 (talk)03:45, 13 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
'I have a weakness for alcohol... my desire for alcohol really is strong.' [...] One can think, 'I like alcohol this much. This isn't something I can spend my life on, can it.' This is how one can start to objectively recognise one's worldly desires.
I would caution against relying on 実用日本語表現辞典. 実用日本語表現辞典 is an anonymously published blog. It's not even pseudonymous. It apparently tries to document terms in recently popular usage in the Japanese speaking internet. Weblio apparently includes their entries, but I would say that indicates Weblio's loose standards more than anything else.Whym (talk)12:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 year ago8 comments4 people in discussion
Japanese. Not part of the Kanken. Addedhere. If this can't be verified then be advised that this is not a one-off; I've encountered quite a number of such spurious kanji entries (and senses). —Fytcha〈 T| L| C〉22:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Likewise for the alternative forms瞏 and䁚 listed at that kanji.jitenon.jp site.
My suspicion is that these characters are used in Chinese, and someone included them in the JIS standard for character encodings in Japan, despite these not really being used in Japanese. This wouldn't be the first such instance of this, either.
Latest comment:1 year ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Japanese. An IP claims this "Kanji[…]has no known use beyond Literary Chinese writings", in which case it seems not to merit a Japanese entry. But I don't know a whole lot about the niceties of CJK, so bringing it here.This, that and the other (talk)11:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
Kotobank has something like that sense for Chinese (inChu-Nichi Jiten), but elsewhere has the kanji as a variant ofくじり (くじること). I added the Japanese sense and formatted the section, but haven't verified the IP user's sense or the readings.Cnilep (talk)06:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
This seems like a rare but valid kanji spelling. I'm having a go at this, locating the main entries at the kana spellings ofくじり(kujiri) andつのぎり(tsunogiri). (Still in process, links are still red as I write this.) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig17:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Vietnamese. Chữ Nôm character. The reading isvà, but I cannot connect it to any of the meanings on its page. As much as I've found is dictionaries saying it means reed, and "một và bông lau" which doesn't make much sense to me.Regireki (talk)13:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Regireki Bông lau means "reed". Và means "and" or "several". So in this quote and context, "một và bông lau", it means "several reed plants". Compare một và tomột chút (a little bit) andmột ít (a little bit).
Latest comment:2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese.
User:馬太阿房 noted this as Gikun for満つ(mitsu) in the Meiji Bible, but couldn't find other Japanese usage. I can't find it in archives of Asahi Shimbun (from 1879) or Yomiuri Shimbun (from 1876), and Google Books snippets seem like probably scannos. NKD lists it as じゅう‐じん, with a note, "「仞」はみちる意" (仞/牣 meansみちる "to be filled"). The site furigana.info also says the reading is じゅうじん.
I briefly changed the POS from noun to verb-suru, since the gloss suggests an accomplishment, but the one usage I found thanks to NKD (from 1869) doesn't include する, so I changed it back.Cnilep (talk)02:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:2 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese.
I can only find a few newspaper articles about the US military's position on "レーストラック方式", which I gather is a (calque of an English) term for some kind flight path for airplanes? Granted, such mentions go back to the 1970s, but they do not seem to refer to any actual racetracks. e.g. Yomiuri Shimbun, 2011:
Beikoku Bōsōshō ga rokugatsu ni shingata suichoku richakuriku yusōki “ＭＶ２２ Osupurei” no haibi o kimeta koto o uke, taishō kōkūki o ＣＨ４６ chūgata yusō heri kara ＭＶ２２ Osupurei ni, hikō keiro wa daikei kara rikujō kyōgijō kata (rēsutorakku kata) ni henkō.
From June the US Department of Defense has decided to deploy new vertical take off and landing “MV22 Osprey”, switching from CH46 midsize transport helicopter to the MV22 Osprey, the flight path shifting from a trapezoid pattern to a athletic field pattern (racetrack pattern).
It looks like it's used to describe a certain shape of electromagnetic coils and other similar devices, in the form ofレーストラック型,レーストラック形状, etc. It might be a stretch to say レーストラック without a suffix means something like "racetrack-shaped", though. Maybe we can have a usage note about it?Whym (talk)11:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
This sense exists; both it and 優 are pronounced as jau1, but they should be unrelated otherwise. It should be cognate to抽(cau1), cf撐(caang3) vs𨅝(jaang3),踩(caai2) vs踹(jaai2).
Ideally we would put this sense on抽 under a separate etymology, but it appears to me that休 is a more common form than both 抽 or 優. In any case, it should be a placed under an etymology separate from the main one on any of these three characters. –Wpi (talk)08:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
google:"為国し" (adding the し to filter for Japanese verb constructions) generates three hits.
Two are from a name website and are mis-hits for the given name為国(tamekuni).
One is a mis-hit with a comma between the twokanji characters.
google books:"為国し" generates five hits, but all only with Google's error-prone "snippet view".
Two are from text snippets that demonstrate other scanning artifacts (making it likely that these hits are also scannos, and both of them certainly look dubious).
One has a comma in between the two kanji.
Two might possibly be valid -- or they might be scannos as well.
It looks like it comes from Confucius (子曰能以禮讓爲國乎章) which is usually not translated into Japanese in a way that connects the two characters as a word. However, there are other examples that I think count. None of them suggest -suru verb usage, so it makes sense that "為国し" generates few hits.
That said, I don't think I grasp the meaning of the last two sentences well (at least without further research), and I cannot be of much help in adding quotations and their translations.Whym (talk)12:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Suddenly andall of a sudden are not wrong, but we might want to be more precise. I think we want to indicate that something like がばっと空が暗くなった would be less common. がばっと usually implies physical movement and sound made by the subject (typically a human or an animal), or a metaphor of that. There are collocations like がばっと開く (to open wide, like an open mouth) - I don't know if this can be explained together with what's discussed above, or should be explained as a separate sense.Whym (talk)12:41, 23 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
The field of Vietnamese characters is sadly full of cruft. The Nôm writing system was never taught or tested in a formal way. People studied Chinese and Nôm was halfway there, like Franglish for people who are studying French. So making up characters as you went along was a perfectly valid thing to do back in the Nôm era, which ended around 1920. The Han-Nom Institute in Hanoi recommends several dictionaries to sort this issue out, includingTran Van Kiem (2004),Ho Le (1976),Nguyen Quang Hong (2014),Takeuchi (1989), and theInstitute of Vietnamese Studies (2009).
The character above is not from any of these dictionaries, but rather fromĐại Từ Điển Chữ Nôm (Great Nôm Dictionary, 1998) by Vũ Văn Kính. With numerous unsourced characters, this dictionary is not on the institute's list of approved references. However, it is easily the best-selling Nôm dictionary in Vietnam, not that many Vietnamese buy Nôm dictionaries these days.
Earlier, this character appeared in the Wikipedia article "pho." I have changed it to something better attested. Perhaps the illustration in the chu Nom article can be replaced with𡂄 (⿰口頗). Its a similar character from Ho Le's dictionary.72trombones (talk)15:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:2 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese. RFV in search of any unambiguous use of this term as a noun -- as an agent or patient of a verb, such as marked byが(ga,subject particle) orを(o,object particle).
I've done some preliminary digging. While certain Japanese monolingual dictionaries include "noun" as a POS for this (Kojien, Daijirin, Daijisen;FWIW, the NKD does not do this), none of the usage examples listed, nor any I've found online so far, actually show clear use as a noun -- with the term appearing as the agent or patient of a verb. Instead, all usage I've seen so far is consistent with this term being used sometimes as a so-called "no adjective".
If no one can find actual clear use of this term as a noun, I think we have to view the Japanese sources that do this as using an analysis based solely on use with the particleの(no), and that this term is not actually a "noun" as we define it.
In both cases,ただ(tada) is immediately modifying the following adjective, and in that syntactic role, it must be an adverb.
ただ同然
Theただ(tada) here is clearly being used as a bare adverb modifyingna adjective同然(dōzen,“same, equivalent, identical”).
→ I see a similar confusion in Japanese references for同然(dōzen) that I see forただ(tada). The NKD lists this as ana adjective, Kojien and Shinmeikai give no part of speech (often implying "noun"), and Daijirin and Daijisen list as bothna adjective and noun. But again, the usage examples in the references just show regularno adjective constructions, without any clear evidence of "noun-ness" -- not used as a patient or agent of a verb. Googling around (google books:"同然が") shows cases likeしかも本人同然がいずれも女子であるから(shika mo honnindōzen ga izure mo joshi de aru kara), where the同然(dōzen) seems to be used to mean "all of them the same" -- but this sense is not listed in the Japanese dictionaries.
Update:
I have to revise the above a bit after looking more closely at the linked page. The fuller context for this instance ofただ(tada) is:
「日用品などをただ同然で配って雰囲気を盛り上げた後、」
If we parse the同然(dōzen) as "all of them the same", theただ(tada) still parses out as an adverb (basically, "just"), but in this case it's modifying the phrase同然で配って(dōzen de kubatte,“distributing them all the same”), or possibly the longer phrase同然で配って雰囲気を盛り上げた(dōzen de kubatte fun'iki o moriageta,“distributing them all the same and enlivening the mood/atmosphere”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig21:54, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
ただに等しい
Theただ(tada) in this one can be parsed as either ana adjective used with theに(ni) adverbial particle, or simply as an adverb that takes theに(ni) adverbial particle, modifying thei adjective等しい(hitoshii,“same, equivalent, identical”).
同然 in ただ同然 is like "virtually", "practically", "almost". Just ただで would be "for free", and ただ同然で is "basically for free", "barely taking any money". At least semantically, it's 同然 that's modifying ただ(で), not vice versa. 同然 seems to almost always follow a noun or も. I don't know if that automatically means ただ there is a noun, but it's definitely not an adverb.
ただに等しい is also synonymous to ただ同然: "practically free". に is definitely not an adverbial particle. に等しい = "equivalent to", "tantamount to". It can follow a verb or adjective, as in ないに等しい, するに等しい. Again not sure if that automatically means ただ here is a noun, but your parsing is incorrect.Nardog (talk)04:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
I checked 漢語大詞典 again, and it gives the definition 變動；反覆, citing a few more quotes: 《漢書·禮樂志二》：“幡比翄回集，貳雙飛常羊。”《漢書·高帝紀下》“譬猶居高屋之上建瓴水也”顏師古注引三國魏如淳曰：“居高屋之上而幡瓴水，言其向下之勢易也。” This sense can be readded, but I think "to flip or turn over" is not a great translation and should be refined. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }04:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 year ago9 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese. Etymoloy 2:(archaic) the nominative case; marks the subject of the verb
This is described in the etymology as being "Found in the Okinawa strata" and has the label(Northern Ryukyuan), and has one citation dating back to the 16th century from theOmoro Sōshi, which makes me think this much more likely to be a Ryukyuan language than Japanese.Theknightwho (talk)00:16, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Agreed that that should be moved to an===Okinawan=== entry (and/or some other Ryukyuan language as appropriate).
@Eirikr It's a bit tricky to know exactly what L2 it should go under, but I suspect it would be Proto-Northern Ryukyuan (which we don't have at the moment, because the Ryukyuan languages haven't been organised up till now).
Here's a pretty conservative suggestion for how we could do things, and further refinements are certainly possible.
ぎゃ palatalizes after original pR *i (never *e), as in きこゑ大きみぎや (kikowe OFOkimi gya 'the great lord who listens...').
The Ryukyuan reflexes in the dictionaries should just reflex-ga. It's actually well attested (probably both as or either a subject marker or a genitive marker) in Ryukyuan; of course JLect's Ryukyuan coverage ismore than extremely patchy, so I only use the integrated Okinawa-go Data Shu in it, and even then I've been using them less, as I'm usinghttps://okinawago.app, although you can't search by kanji. (more entry indexing by pure search; no need for special broken characters).Chuterix (talk)01:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also this is how we can sort things phylogemy of Ryukyuan:
"It's actually well attested (probably both as or either a subject marker or a genitive marker) in Ryukyuan; of course JLect's Ryukyuan coverage ismore than extremely patchy, so I only use the integrated Okinawa-go Data Shu in it, and even then I've been using them less, as I'm usinghttps://okinawago.app..."
Do you have any other sources that list a particle ぎゃ, ぎゃー, じゃ, or じゃー?
If Ryukyuan topic particlega palatalized togya in a regular and stable fashion, we should presumably still find examples ofgya (or affricatedja) in modern Ryukyuan lects. Is there any such evidence?
@Eirikr Sorry for the confusion; I said-ga is well attested in Ryukyuan;(-i)-gya is only in Old Okinawan, and the palatalization was reverted for unknown reasons (perhaps a combination of consistency and influence from Japanese?). No palatalized form of-ga is found in any Ryukyuan languages.Chuterix (talk)23:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm honestly not even entirely sure what that sense line is supposed to mean. Extrapolating, this sounds like -- at best -- an orthographic variant in an attempt at indicating a glide to prevent hiatus between the otherwise-identical two /e/ sounds. Given the historical vagaries I've seen in spellings, I suspect this might have been part of the Meiji era penchant for pedantic hypercorrection, but without more detail, it's hard to be certain.
Latest comment:2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense: "to steal other people's delivery" and "to steal other people's work or production that is just finished or nearly finished". I think that the meaning of this word is "to do something before others can do it" or "be the early bird". These two senses are already included in my suggestion of the revised definition.--Mahogany115 (talk)01:09, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese, Chinese, Translingual. This is ostensibly a ghost character, a character which doesn't actually exist and was only encoded due to an error by the Japanese standards body: but it is asserted to have a definition in both Japanese and Chinese, and to exist Translingually. So does it exist? In which languages?- -sche(discuss)03:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Weblio only has a KANJIDIC stub, and KANJIDIC / Unihan is known for being rife with errors when it comes to the rare characters.
Meanwhile, the JA Wikt entry atja:墸 calls it a variant / mistaken form for𣦡 or堵.
For the former, the entry notes that this appears just once in excerpts from thew:Jiyun, and is likely a scribal mistake.
For the former, the entry notes that this was included in the earlier JIS standards, but further research for the fourth edition in 1997 concluded that this was a ghost character.
Latest comment:11 months ago14 comments2 people in discussion
As with 壥 above: the Japanese standards body now claims this character doesn't exist, yet we list a meaning not only in Japanese, but also in Chinese. In which languages is it a real character?- -sche(discuss)03:52, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you; RFV-withdrawn for Chinese; though any given sense currently only has two cites and not three, I trust that the character exists in Chinese. (It is plausible it has therefore also been used in Japanese, but presumably as a surname rather than a common noun.) If ithas been used in Japanese, it's not a ghost kanji; if ithasn't been used in Japanese, then maybe we either delete the Japanese section, or remove the definition and explain that its inclusion by the Japanese standards body was erroneous but nonetheless correct — because it would've been included in Unicode all the same at the behest of the Chinese standards body (since it is used in Chinese) if it hadn't already been included by the Japanese (as I said inthe Tea Room).- -sche(discuss)15:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I have removed the Translingual definition, so the entry now presents the character as a ghost character (with no meaning). (I suppose someone else might prefer to{{no entry}} it and point to the Wikipedia article on ghost kanji.)- -sche(discuss)15:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
RFV-failed for Japanese; reduced to # {{non-gloss|A [[ghost character]].}}, but without prejudice to being reduced further to a{{no entry}} pointer to an article or appendix on ghost kanji.- -sche(discuss)15:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:2 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion
Japanese. We claim (via category) that this is a ghost kanji, not a character that has ever really be used. It is not, however, on the JIS list, which implies ithas actually been used... in which case it's not a ghost...- -sche(discuss)06:55, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've commented out the Chinese section pending attestation, and removed the Korean section, and redefined the Japanese section as a ghost kanji.RFV-failed / RFV-resolved?- -sche(discuss)15:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yep, it makes sense for it to be a noun. I would also like to point out that semantically it should also be an adjective, andjisho (a secondary source, if I recall correctly) also has the definition "chalky" with the specification that の is used. --kc_kennylau (talk)17:55, 15 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
Is the question whether Joseon == Korean for this sense, or if 朝鲜民族 is a valid expanded form of 朝鮮族？ If it's the latter, there are definitely usages of it on governmental sites:
What is asked here exactly? To verify the "tea ceremony utensil" sense? If so, judging by #3 in the quoted list, I think we can say it's the name of a tea ceremony utensil at least. I'm not familiar with the technical term and I cannot be more precise than that, though.Whym (talk)03:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 year ago7 comments3 people in discussion
In the NKD, appears in Yamanashi, Hida, and Aichi (never Kanto!). Imoshi in Ibaraki also appears in NKD. Sakishima senses were taken from Hirayama et al. 1992. Sanuki 'slow' is unverified, presumably same source as Hirayama et al. 1992???Chuterix (talk)03:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Japanese. Rfv-sense: Sanuki dialect. dull, slow. Cannot find this anywhere, not even in my dictionaries, nor online. @荒巻モロゾフ made this entry. Aramaki Morozov also disappeared on September 2023, so there's no luck unless he returns in time. If you can find a source for this sense, please update the entry.Chuterix (talk)00:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
How does simply saying Aramaki is on an indefinite hiatus close the discussion? This is not really conclusive. Even ifs/he was still active, this discussion should not be closed just for this apparent reason.Chuterix (talk)20:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
This sense was added by @Tooironic in thisdiff. Any elaborations on what this means? It might correspond to this definition from Hanyu Da Cidian: 指事物的長短、大小等特征。《文子·自然》：“老子曰：樸至大者無形狀，道至大者無度量。故天圓不中規，地方不中矩。” — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }03:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also FWIW, my Windows 10 Microsoft IME suggests a kanji spelling of 家茂 as a conversion candidate for the いえもち kana input string.
Searching atgoogle:"家茂" "いえもち" seems to find plenty of hits as well. If we try to remove hits for Tokugawa with"家茂" "いえもち" -"徳川", we still get some hits, suggesting that this is indeed a name for more than justTokugawa Iemochi.
> 地处中原的山西为什么不说中原话？是五胡乱华的结果吗？(Link}, as contrasted with Jin Chinese.
Noting that ZH WP redirects 中原話 to 中原官話, which is also why I decided to put it there instead of solely the Dungan meaning. Open otherwise to just putting "the language of the Central Plains", which wouldn't necessarily mean Mandarin (historically).Kungming2 (talk)00:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Kungming2: Most usage of 中原話 I see seems to be actually referring to 中原官話 specifically? It would be best if we could find durably archived usage of it referring to Mandarin (in general or Standard Mandarin specifically?). — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }05:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
If Pellard cites a Kametsu form, it's (almost) certainly from Hirayama 1986. I did a relook at Hirayama 1986, and surely enough, sïbya appears alongside sïba! I'll remove the RFV shortly.
Latest comment:1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense: "information; message; news; intelligence". Removed out of process by @Ivanktw, so I'm bringing it here for verification. This sense seems to correspond to 消息；情报 found inHanyu Da Cidian. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }13:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Appreciate a lot. Not until this day when I came across the entry of佔领 did I realise there is actually a possible option to mark it as non-standard simplified form, and now I'm wondering if it would be better to make the main entry shown and linked with this entry like what's done on the main entry of which I mentioned above.Maraschino Cherry (talk)16:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I can't find much evidence of this. This NHK publication (https://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/pdf/20150130_1.pdf) lists a reading of ぜんごく (zengoku), but also notes that this was not approved as a pronunciation to use in broadcasts by a meeting of the 放送用語委員会 / Broadcasting Terminology Committee in late 1939 or early 1940 (page 29 of the PDF, right-hand bordered box, roughly halfway down; search for ぜんごく to find it quickly). I take from this that azengoku pronunciation existed at that time, but that it was uncommon and proscribed. Unsure if there are any dialectal aspects to this, nor if this pronunciation is still current. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig22:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:4 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense: "Heavenly Immortals, Celestial Immortals". Never heard these meanings before, I suspect they are made up by a Buddhist user who creates poor-quality entries at viwikt. –Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk)14:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
This sense was removed by @Justinrleung before being undone by @Maitrī-karuṇā (benevolence and compassion). According to神仙#天仙 on zh wikipedia, the Taoist book 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 classifies神仙 into various categories, including 鬼仙, 地仙, 神仙,天仙, and 劍仙. I do not know how important that book is to Taoism, but this is likely a technical Taoist term. Quotation:
It's been a year since this sense was nominated (the sense was added by a sockpuppet of ChanComThemPho), and I think this is exactly anSoP, so I might voteDelete. –Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk)15:50, 13 June 2025 (UTC)Reply
This jargon (or any other jargon) is typically used in-group - that much is clear and not contested. I think the question is: is there any non in-group use of the term that we can cite? Even one such citation is better than nothing.Whym (talk)03:53, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Does any of those hits use the term generally, not implyingJapanese devices? My question was about the second sense inガラパゴスケータイ: "(by extension) non-smartphone mobile phone" which does not specify Japan, unlike the first sense. The examples I gave above show the short form is used for devices of non-Japanese manufacturers (because KaiOS is not particularly associated with Japan, and 新興国 suggests countries that don't include Japan), but the same cannot be said for the long form, as far I could see.Whym (talk)23:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't know if this counts as a reliable source but here's one:[22]. A quick Google search will show you that 毫 in standard Chinese is 1/10 厘, and 厘 is 1/10 分.The dog2 (talk)18:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
@The dog2 The article in your link says "按照大到小的顺序，顺序是每百万美分" and "人民币的基本单位是分，但有时根据需要计算为厘米". I have no idea what they mean. 分, 厘, 毫, 絲 were units of length and weight, while the monetary units were 圓, 角, 分 and 釐, which were in use since the Qing dynasty. As far as I know, the smallest monetary unit defined was 釐. Are you able to provide any quotations that feature the use of 毫 as a unit of money in Mandarin?RcAlex36 (talk)12:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
For this one, it will be hard to find it in actual use to count money today because modern Chinese currency only goes down to 分. We would probably need to look up historical documents to find actual usage on this. Maybe if someone has access to a well-established dictionary, we can look it up in there.The dog2 (talk)01:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ditto. Note that in all these cases the train station is named after some place name, e.g.小俣(Obata) is indirectly referring to小俣町 (三重県), and ideally should be replaced with definition of such place name should the train station sense is deleted. –wpi (talk)12:50, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I was referring to the use ofWT:ATTEST's "widespread use" clause, which should only be applied on basic, common, and widespread words that are trivial to cite, and I doubt this word satisfies this clause at all.
Latest comment:10 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: "to include everything". This sense is not real, or at least, I tried very hard to find it and would be shocked if someone can come up with one exemplar much less three.(I did not understand the process at first and thought it was similar to a {{cn}} tag on English Wikipedia so I just deleted it at first, sorry for that.)Psiĥedelisto (talk)22:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Hi, I think the meaning "to include everything" is from (「5. 全体をつつみ含む。」 "to cover and include the entirety"),this entry on デジタル大辞泉 (「 全体をつつみ含む。」 "to cover and include the entirety"; same dictionary entry also availableon goo国語辞書), or fromthis entry on 精選版 日本国語大辞典 (「5. すべてをつつみ含む。また、説明し尽くす。」 "to cover and include everything; also, to explain something entirely").
The former has this usage example:これを、ひと言で覆えば... ―kore o, hitokoto de ōe ba ―If I were to include this in one word, ...
The latter cites the following sentence fromja:木下尚江 (KINOSHITA, Naoe)'s book 「火の柱」(see below) as the first attestation:社会主義とは何ですか、一言に掩へば神の御心です、基督が道破し給へる神の御心です。 ―shakwaishugi toha nan desu ka, hitokoto ni ohohe ba kami no mikokoro desu, kirisuto ga dauhashi tamahe ru kami no mikokoro desu. ―What is socialism? To include (its sense) in a few words it is the will of God, (it is) the will of God which Christ has wholly explained.
In this attestation it's spelled with the Kanji "掩" instead of "覆", though.
<Quotation>
1904,木下尚江 [Kinoshita Naoe],火の柱 [hi no hashira][26],青空文庫:
Latest comment:1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Japanese. Supposedly a kanji meaningyttrium, but I can't find a single Japanese-language source using it in this context. The only results I've found are snippets of Chinese text, Wiktionary mirror sites, OCR errors, and usernames of Japanese Twitter users. According tothe first revision of the page, the source for this info came fromUnicode's Unihan database, which lists the character with an unusual reading of "ITORYUUMU" (notイットリウム(ittoriumu)), though this waschanged by an anonymous editor six months later. Since then, this info has remained on the page, forever unchanging and completely unsourced. If this does exist, I'm guessing it's in an old and/or obscure book somewhere.Binarystep (talk)11:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Binarystep: In the early days of Wiktionary NanshuBot was used to set up our Han-character coverage based at least partly on the Unihan database. That database has a lot of user-generated content, but at the time it was better than nothing. We've been weeding out odd cruft like this and lots of straight-up errors ever since. For most of us who have followed CJKV rfvs and rfds for more than a few years, no explanation is necessary.Chuck Entz (talk)21:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's not really relevant whether it's been encoded in Unicode: plenty of legitimate (but rare) characters still haven't been encoded, and on the fipside, some encoded charactersdon't exist.
Apparently a borrowing from Esperantoherbo(“grass”).
Several problems here:
The noun definition is not clear at all: how is this a reference tow? Whatever the case, this needs to be moved to the etymology, as it obviously doesn't mean "grass".
Obviously copied directly from the entry at草(kusa), suggesting the IP who added it has no idea what they're doing (how is this a phrase?).
Is this really derived from Esperanto? If it is, it's certainly not borrowed, in any event.
This is definitely out of the range of my knowledge (passive learning of 2ch terms, outside of 2ch).Google finds threads about aboard in which Esperanto translations of Internet slang have become popularized(?) and a copypasta listing Esperanto translations, but that runs into the "mention–usage" problem. —Fish bowl (talk)08:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
At least the third paragraph explains that many proper nouns are translated this way. Could we perhaps limit the scope of this sense then?内存溢出的猫 (talk)06:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
In my opinion, it was literally but not really semantically related to champion so rfv-sense may be passed or not, depending whether a better material can be found as a quotation to illustrate the sense, or others may not understand either.Maraschino Cherry (talk)18:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Nihon Hōgen Daijiten says itis was (quotes from 1880 or earlier) used in both Okinawa and Kagoshima, though I imagine it (that is,城 as clearly distinct from城) will be hard to find written. It also says thatぐすく,ぐふく, andぎすく are used for石垣(ishigaki) in parts of Okinawa.Cnilep (talk)01:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
NKD has this partial quotation, though it could arguably be transliteration or calque of Okinawan:
Latest comment:11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense:(historical) shogun (supreme generalissimo of feudal Japan). Basically there's no this sense in Chinese dictionaries.--Kethyga (talk)06:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
The first two should probably be removed, unless anyone else can find a source. The third one can be argued on the basis of コーレーグス (コーレーグシュ) "chili pepper" (cf. Japaneseこうらいごしょう【高麗胡椒】), but I would mark 高麗 as either obsolete or historical since it's not used today and could be considered a cranberry morpheme if it has no other usages (compare how the entries forcobweb andcop are structured).Io Katai (talk)01:50, 17 April 2025 (UTC)Reply
There are plenty of web hits, some even from reputable sources like NYT[28]. How does one decide which are to be treated as naturalized Chinese words rather than literal translations? The NYT use is explicitly a translation of a foreign term and I am inclined to disregard it.Vox Sciurorum (talk)20:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Vox Sciurorum: As for now, the problem has nothing to do with naturalization but the existence of this word. Unfortunately the forementioned NYT source doesn't have quotation for 水门 but rather for 水门事件. The idea that "There are plenty of web hits" seems to be a misunderstanding.Dokurrat (talk)11:18, 25 December 2024 (UTC) (edited)Reply
I don't know which trad form is more common, but I found things like this: 粉絲們在美羅城特展門口兌換“穀子” -- “吃穀”就是買周邊，即動漫、遊戲等二次元相關產品，穀子是英文goods的諧音，包括海報、徽章、卡片、掛件、立牌、手辦、娃娃等。“ and it would be a bit odd, perhaps, to use the metaphor of eating millet (吃穀) but write it as 吃谷 in trad characters. I see there's a link labeled 周邊/穀子 athttps://zh.moegirl.org.cn/zh-hant/%E7%BC%A9%E5%86%99%E6%A2%97Richwarm88 (talk)
Latest comment:9 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense: "(Philippine Hokkien) Tondo (a district and historical polity in Manila, Philippines)", which @Delirium333 hastried to remove out of process with the claim that "there is no reliable source that the chinese ever referred to tondo as "tong-to". only one dubious website says that. we must therefore refrain from associating this term to tondo". @Mlgc1998 as the editor who added this sense. —SURJECTION/ T/ C/ L/11:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
@Surjection Thank you for the Rfv. I have investigated where I last remembered reading about this term that led me to add this term in en.wikt first last 2019 many years ago. Unfortunately, I remember having read this first from en.Wikipedia in theTondo (historical polity) page unfortunately previously having trusted years ago where wikipedia sources their info from. I have dug into how and who first put this term in that wiki page and it seems it goes way back more than a decade ago back to 2008 in wikipedia, when User:Alternativity madethis edit first to theTondo (historical polity) page.
I first thought before that if it came fromTagalogTondo that東都 /东都(Tong-to͘) phonologically made sense inPhilippine Hokkien that I grew up hearing from my parents and grandparents, and historically centuries ago,Classical Chinese texts in the Philippines just as in Fujian and Taiwan were traditionally read in the literary readings of Hokkien, tho semantically in hindsight perhaps東都 /东都(literally“eastern capital”) does not fully make sense despiteTondo district today being part of the city ofManila, the modern capital of the Philippines, since historically Tondo is not really geographically situated東 /东(literally“east”) from wherePhilippine Hokkien speakers historically usually lived at in the Philippines centuries ago and even today, such as among others, residents ofBinondo Chinatown toSan Nicolas, Manila (former Baybay, Maynila near the originalLusong呂宋 /吕宋 by thePasig river delta) would have seen Tondo as northwest.
Anyways, the original wikipedia source points to either or both aKobe University Library source that seems to be inaccessible now and perhaps the "Ming Annals"? If the original source was about late Ming era, I would think it might've been about Koxinga's rule in Taiwan and historical events relating to呂宋 /吕宋 or who knows where User:Alternativity originally got their info from.Mlgc1998 (talk)14:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)Reply
andLagorchestes is agenus made up of "small species ofMacropodidae" (note thatspecies is both singular and plural). Both were added by the same person, so I wonder whether this is a paraphrase of the previous sense, a guess as to this character's meaning within that term, or a paraphrase of the definition in the Translingual section:
Keep at least with the Shanghainese label. The figurative+humorous "police" readings are easy to infer and are definitely attestable given association with the cartoon character.
Though also for what it's worth, it might be worth putting this sense's connection to the character in the usage notes since the notion of a "cat" in Shanghainese has likely already had associations with the police for a considerable time before the release of the cartoon, also seen through the examples of黑貓／黑猫 raised above, though most likely the cartoon would have further popularized the lexicalization of黑貓警長／黑猫警长 and its humorous sense of simply "cop". Putting all that info on there would be a separate piece of work of course but also for the factors above I think it'd be beneficial to keep the "police"-related senses for them to be added onto in the future.Musetta6729 (talk)14:52, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:6 months ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Korean. Rfv-sense:
# [[song]]# [[melody]], [[tune]]
The dictionaries athttps://dict.naver.com/dict.search?query=가곡 describe specific forms of music, one from Korean tradition and related to sijo, one from European (German) tradition.
Latest comment:8 months ago7 comments3 people in discussion
Chinese. Rfv-sense: "(Hakka) tunnel (underground or underwater passage)". I would also like to rfv the Meixian Hakka pronunciation ti4 lung2.RcAlex36 (talk)16:05, 24 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
I copied the pronunciation from the Association's page, I know that this is not Meixian pronunciation but there is no such option in the template.Mahogany115 (talk)23:12, 24 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
Also I consider 地窿 as a better way to write because it describes the thing better. If we write as 地龍, some may think that this is a kind of creature instead of "tunnel".Mahogany115 (talk)23:13, 24 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
@Mahogany115: It’s possible to conceive of a tunnel as a metaphorical dragon, since tunnels are long. (Compare queues/line-ups, which are also metaphorically called 龍 in Cantonese, for example.) We should generally not make up orthography based on our own intuitions without any further back-up. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }04:21, 25 February 2025 (UTC)Reply
This is an internet slang used around 2013. You could still find the old post on weibo with this usage. I am not a racist. I just recorded this racial slur.Hahahaha哈 (talk)11:36, 7 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
According toWT:ATTEST, a word which is to be passed RFV should be in three or more independent instances durable archivedspanning at least a year. Now that the word has been obsolescent (sunk into oblivion), if the cited weibos spanned no longer than one year, RFV is possibly to fail.Maraschino Cherry (talk)17:41, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
@TongcyDai: The first one has already been added to the entry in March. I'm not sure if the second one is clear since there's a 氏; it's not exactly clear whether the 氏 is meant to be part of the transcription of Siemens — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }01:33, 8 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for mentioning. ThoughHerbert A. Giles also translated this to creator (They are the eternal gifts of God to all mankind, and their enjoyment is inexhaustible. Hence it is that you and I are enjoying them now.) I will add the quotation and the RFV may be passed now.Maraschino Cherry (talk)09:40, 24 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
This is a text mandated for memorization within PRC's compulsory education system. I am very confident that all textbooks would likely explain it as "nature." Ping meUser:内存溢出的猫 plz!📝瞄？💬喵!09:48, 24 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
I can't find it in texts. I informally surveyed some female acquaintances – not anything systematic, but merely suggestive. Besides the literal meaning, some people suggested things along the lines of "昔" or "歴史的の一日". No one mentioned menstruation, though, for what it's worth.Cnilep (talk)00:01, 3 April 2025 (UTC)Reply
Possible explanations: The quote could have been found after the publication of the second book. Or, 1636 may not be old enough to the second author. Or it might have been simply a blindspot in the author's knowledge.Whym (talk)03:07, 5 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
For context, the person who created that was banned for their prolific, yet clueless Japanese edits, and it took an abuse filter to keep them from continuing that as an IP. I wouldn't trust them to know anything about Korean.Chuck Entz (talk)01:33, 23 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Note also that at least as of조선어 철자법 (1954),노예(noye) was explicitly listed as correct over노례(norye) because there is no word in which隸(rye), regardless of position, gets pronounced with an/l/ in the modern language. DPRK's undoing of두음법칙(dueumbeopchik) is less about preserving old rimes and more about consistency.🌙🐇⠀talk⠀⠀contribs⠀06:17, 23 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Recently created by IP 67.209.129.91. Apparently thisdoes exist as a hashtag, both on Pixiv and Instagram. It also seems to be used in some social media user names. But it doesn't seem to be widespread, and I can't find it attested in a way that conveys its meaning. (It's a rebus, by the way:乙(otsu) +パイ(pai). Took me a second to get that.)Cnilep (talk)05:01, 25 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Can we not delete entries that are clearly in use Just Because they don't strictly meet CFI? What form of "durably archived media" could a word like乙π possibly be used in?
and I can't find it attested in a way that conveys its meaning.
It clearly has been used by at least a handful of people. Does that make it part of the language as such? I don't know. I don't think the answer is obvious or uncontroversial.
I assume that “seems pretty darn clear to me” refers to the images returned when searching for the hashtag. If one knows whatおっぱい means and thinks about the relevant characteristic of the images, then the meaning of the rebus is clear. But (1) visual search results are not quotable media, and (2) if one doesn't already know those things, then no, the meaning is not conveyed by the hashtag itself.
These are very strange conditions to presume. Yes, the meaning of a word (or rebus or whatever else) is not obvious to someone who doesn't know of the word or any of its surrounding context. That is a general truth, not a noteworthy observation.
Regarding your initial point, I would like to ask: if multiple people using a word (/rebus/...) does not make it "part of the language," what does?WT:CFI governsaddition to Wiktionary, and as a guideline at that; questioning whether something is part of a language solely on the grounds it is not used in durably archived media seems, without any implication that this is what you are doing, flatly silly.
In any case, it would seem the conversation we should be having is not whether this is part of the language, but instead whether we can afford to have this entry without folks yelling about it. On a personal note, I can only feel it unfortunate that some editors (of a dictionary!) choose to prioritize policy over usage—but such is the Wiktionary bureaucracy.🌙🐇⠀talk⠀⠀contribs⠀08:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
===Etymology==={{lit|The Great Malaysia can do it}}, a {{partial calque|zh|ms|Malaysia Boleh|nocap=1}}. {{coinage|zh|Hamzah Abu Samah|in=1993|nat=Malaysian|occ=politician and sports administrator|nobycat=1}} as a marketing slogan for the chocolate drink brand [[w:Milo (drink)|MILO]] and to support local athletes during the 1993 SEA Games in Singapore. Popularised by Dr. Mahathir Mohamad as a catchphrase for [[w:Wawasan 2020|Vision 2020]].===Interjection==={{head|zh|interjection}} # {{lb|zh|Malaysian Mandarin}} "Malaysia can [do it]", an expression of [[patriotism]] or national pride.# {{lb|zh|Malaysian Mandarin|humorous|sarcastic|politics}} An expression of disappointment towards failures in Malaysian society and [[corruption]] by political leaders.
Tagged by 157.65.230.118. I couldn't find any words for "커먼" in theStandard Korean Language Dictionary. And according to theCBD-CHM Korea, "callithrix jacchus" (common marmoset) is officially called "마모셋원숭이" in Korean. --Dubukimchi (talk)08:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've found some contemporary examples of "零找金" in accounting contexts, e.g. 台北公司之現金帳戶餘額包括銀行存款、零用金及零找金三項. but "零找" by itself (not commonly used) seems like classical Chinese, as in 祗能補零找之需，不能作經使用，不若廣行錢票，既便於取携而又無折扣之弊 or 爲解除市上零找困難起見，新鑄之一分二分銅質輔幣將提先於下週正式發行.ENCN (talk)02:47, 25 April 2025 (UTC)Reply
It's from 閩南方言大詞典, which got it from 普通話閩南方言詞典, which has “【零找】língzhǎo｜找零钱。〔占找〕chiam-chāu〔找散〕chāu-sóaⁿ”. This may be a typo (for 找零, which is not found in either dictionary), but I also see some hits on Google Books andhttps://dl.ndl.go.jp in older Japanese dictionaries (like 岡野一朗 支那経済辞典, 1931). --QuestionableAnswers (talk)20:23, 26 April 2025 (UTC)Reply
Just to be clear:canola oil is made from a variety ofrapeseed that was selectively bred for lowerucic acid content and given a nicer name for marketing purposes, and both canola oil andrapeseed oil are types of vegetable oils. I suspect that all three senses are basically the same thing, but were added separately by people unfamiliar with one or the other of the English terms. To verify the nominated sense, you need to find usage where you can be sure it's refering to something other than canola oil or rapeseed oil. Good luck!Chuck Entz (talk)03:27, 1 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
needs to be combined into one sense "rapeseed oil; canola oil." 菜籽油 is also called 菜油, which was mistakenly interpreted as "vegetable oil" by @TooironicENCN (talk)01:48, 2 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
Should not combine. Canola and rapeseed oil are two different things. Furthermore canola oil is 芥花油, not 菜籽油, though I presume they do get mixed up by a lot of speakers.C9mVio9JRy (talk)16:33, 4 June 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Japanese. rfv-senses:beggar,drug pusher. These definitions appear to come fromjisho.org, but I'm having trouble finding them in japanese sources. I think beggar might be a somewhat inadequate translation of sense 2 I added, but I'm completely uncertain on the drug pusher sense.Horse Battery (talk)19:41, 3 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:5 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese.
===Etymology 1===Abbreviation of {{l|ja|ウェイ川|tr=Weigawa|gloss=the Wei River}}.====Proper noun===={{ja-pos|proper}}# {{ja-def|渭}} The Wei River in China.
ウェイ川 itself already seems to be extremely rare (see below; this river would be well-known from Chinese classics)— is this ever shortened to ウェイ?
1) There is a general trend in Japanese textbooks to add katakana transliterations for names of places and geographical features of China historically written with kanji in Japanese. This might be one of them. The 建議 cited above from 70+ years ago, but the trend in practice is only from 20-30 years ago in my estimation. 2) We might need a consistent policy on <river name> and <river name>川. It looks like many US rivers have entries here without 川, likeテネシー. You would usually say テネシー川 if you mean the river.Whym (talk)10:27, 22 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:5 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion
This entry, or one or more of its senses, has been nominated as derogatory pursuant toWT:DEROGATORY. It may bespeedily deleted if it does not have at least three quotations meeting the attestation requirements within two weeks of the nomination date, that is, by27 May 2025.
@内存溢出的猫: Please format them and place at least three of them in the entry. None of these are durably archived, so at the very least, they need to be archived using archive.today or Wayback Machine. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }05:10, 26 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
This is used pretty often nowadays. I guess it's a clipping from 工商時間? Used by the media (shopping channel) first then it became common.Chihunglu83 (talk)08:27, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply
Found a mention of "列斯模式":[35]. Nevertheless, I cannot think of any situation in the last century where this abbreviation would have been used—毛主义 for "Maoism" was common, but "斯" was not. — Ping meUser:内存溢出的猫 plz!📝瞄？💬喵!09:55, 24 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
Yes, as @Horse Battery notes, pretty much any organism mentioned in the context of biology is often spelled inkatakana. Compare the general-use word人(hito,“person”), and the biology-context spellingヒト(hito,“human, homo sapiens”). See also the JA WP article as another example:https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ヒト
(Incidentally, we should probably create theヒト entry.)
>Side note: Okay, that was weird. When composing my reply just above,ヒト appeared as a red link, indicating that the page did not exist. The link changed to blue as soon as I clicked "Reply", andthe history for that page shows that it has existed since 2015. Strange.
Anyway, we should probably add some info to that page clarify that, while this is an alternative form (more specifically, alternative spelling) of the word人(hito), the katakana spellingヒト is (usually) semantically limited to the "human, homo sapiens" sense, in the context of the subject of biology. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig09:15, 15 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
This entry, or one or more of its senses, has been nominated as derogatory pursuant toWT:DEROGATORY. It may bespeedily deleted if it does not have at least three quotations meeting the attestation requirements within two weeks of the nomination date, that is, by8 June 2025.
Latest comment:4 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: Red Frog Crab in Wakayama dialect. These were taken from the full version of the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten, although the dialectal forms themselves are imported from Nihon Hōgen Daijiten. Thus, I suppose it is verified.Chuterix (talk)15:29, 30 May 2025 (UTC)Reply
This dates to when NanshuBot was creating Mandarin (we didn't do "Chinese" back then) entries based on data scraped from the Unihan database and other websites. The revision history shows no edits by native speakers since it was created in 2003. Recently, an IP added{{zh-see}}, marking it as a variant of神, but there's no trace of the readings given here in that entry.
This entry sorely needs to be connected to reality, and to be brought up to current standards based on the results.Chuck Entz (talk)
Latest comment:24 days ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Chinese. I think it's a rare erroneous written form of陰莖／阴茎 (yīnjīng, “penis”) , there're few results on Google and no results on Google books. By the way, isyīnjìng a common variant pronunciation of陰莖／阴茎 (yīnjīng). --Kethyga (talk)11:39, 24 June 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 months ago6 comments4 people in discussion
Chinese. I am dubious about whether this word has been established or not. In dictionaries, this term as well as the Korean corresponding term완숙 (完熟,wansuk) is both translated as全熟 (quánshú) or熟透(shútòu) in Chinese rather than verbatim keeping the kanji or hanja. Should attestations be found, it is probably made by someone who knows both Chinese and Japanese yet only to a limited extent. This can be perfectly compared to一杯烏賊 which I happened to see yesterday—烏賊(ika) is quantified by杯(hai) but it is by no means correct Chinese where隻 /只(zhī) is usually used as the classifier of烏賊 /乌贼(wūzéi). This is my opinion.Maraschino Cherry (talk)07:43, 5 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
in mainland china, 完熟 is often used by growers to describe fruit, e.g. 完熟掉落的杏，香甜和果酸都很浓郁，喉头余味久久，十分美妙, and 百度百科 has an entry for it: 完熟，指果实达到完全表现出本品种典型性状，色、香、味均达到最适食用的阶段，是果实由成熟向衰老的转折点ENCN (talk)01:31, 7 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
i don't think this word originated from Japanese, which its main users (i.e. fruit farmers) have no access to. more examples i found: 今天吃了完熟的波姬红，又刷新了认识 | 大五星第三年树，没梳果自然生长，成熟比较晚，至今还有未完熟的，准备挂树上再等 | 还是自己种的完熟的番茄好吃，比超市里半生不熟的商品果口感好多了ENCN (talk)01:52, 7 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
That is exactly evidential that the word is day by day being established in Chinese, at least in this sense (of fruit, to attain full maturity). Yesterday I found that inHanyu Da Cidian there is also this word but the definition clearly leads to another sense which is synonymous to圓熟／圆熟 (yuánshú) and純熟／纯熟 (chúnshú), regarding one's skill.Maraschino Cherry (talk)08:49, 8 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
japanese. sorry if this should be several different questions, but I figured it would make more sense to wrap things up into one single post.
these three have pages, but it doesn't look like they are all that common as variants: さ来週 (as variant of再来週) さ来月 (as variant of再来月) さ来年 (as variant of再来年) in wikt:ja the first two are redirects and the third doesn't exist at all:wikt:ja:さ来週wikt:ja:さ来月wikt:ja:さ来年
it seems like the following terms which we don't have pages for have more prominence than the spellings above. should they be created? 再々来週 as week after 再来週 <- (rarer than the other two(?) ) ささ来月 as month after 再来月 明明後年 as year after 明後年 (明後年 also hasn't been created yet) wikt:ja:明明後年 andwikt:ja:再再来年 both exist
Some of these will be scannos, such as the obvious cases where there is punctuation between the さ and the following word. That said, there are plenty enough valid and confirmably correct hits to attest these spellings, such asthis one for さ来年, orthis one for さ来週, etc.
Latest comment:3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Chinese.
===Etymology===A transcription of {{bor|cmn|hnm|帶雨傘|tr=dài-î-tuà|lit=to take an umbrella}}.<ref>https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ee4y1Z7NZ</ref>===Verb==={{zh-verb}}# {{lb|zh|Internet slang}} to take an umbrella.
===Etymology===A transcription of {{bor|cmn|hnm|戴口罩|tr=tài-kháu-tsău|lit=to wear a mask}}.<ref>https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ee4y1Z7NZ</ref>===Verb==={{zh-verb}}# {{lb|zh|Internet slang}} to wear a mask.{{C|zh|Coronavirus}}
===Etymology===A transcription of {{bor|cmn|hnm|聽通知|tr=theng-thong-ti|lit=to listen to the notification}}.<ref>https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ee4y1Z7NZ</ref>===Verb==={{zh-verb}}# {{lb|zh|Internet slang}} to listen to the notification.
I think the usage is 叮咚雞 > 大狗叫 > 帶一段. Apart from "to listen to the (authority's, especially) notification", 叮咚雞 can also be a metonym for the pandemic or the lockdowns then, similar to口罩 &口罩時期. A quick search:
@Fish bowl,Shlyst: moved. I don't read Japanese, but searching for "高価い" (in quotes) in either Google Books or regular Google search turns up tons of hits, some of which are dictionaries that seem to have matching definitions.
@Je suis une paille:: please readWT:CFI. Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary based on usage, so the way to challenge whether something exists is to submit it for verification. People will look for evidence of usage and if they can't find it, the entry will be deleted. Other online dictionaries are only a tiny fraction of the evidence available, and there are various reasons why they're rarely enough by themselves.Chuck Entz (talk)23:53, 27 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
I just want to add that Japanese is pretty different to English. Because Kanji is a logographic writing system from an analytic language that was borrowed to fit an agglutinative language, it had to kind of be "forced" into Japanese. That meant that regional and informal words still are very much a thing informally, they're never made into Kanji (at least seriously as in, some people might write babytalk but there's no babytalk entries on wiiktionary at least to my knowledge). And for this word specifically, if we look at all of the google books hits, when i looked at the first few, all of them were just used once, probably for stylistic purposes. It's like how if you look up "toog" in google books you also get a ton of hits, even though it's complete nonsense, and when they do appear, they use furigana because it's not how people normally write it. And the reason why I use dictionaries is because as I've mentioned, it can't be a regional/informal thing, and Japanese Kanji dictionaries are VERY thorough when it comes to readings nobody's ever heard of (if you look at unabridged versions and not regular ones), which have readings that were common or uncommon like 500 years ago, or used by one author, and yet none of them have it.
Which as a language nerd, I'm 90% sure it was a Japanese learner who really wanted this reading to be a thing so started at wiktionary to add this reading to try and make it a thing, cuz as if it were up to me I'd 100% make this spelling standard, because it would look nicer, but it's like not up to me so.
Welcome to Wiktionary (if it's not too late to say that)! Your skepticism is respectable and valuable, and I similarly have much to say about spellings (but here is probably not the place). In this case, 高価い appears plentifully (mostly with furigana, and in kyujitai, of course) in old books digitized by the National Diet Library:https://lab.ndl.go.jp/dl/fulltext?keyword=高價い. I don't know about modern usage, but I'd wager that it's essentially extinct (given that you couldn't find anything), and 高価い should have been labeled with "dated" or "rare". —Fish bowl (talk)00:50, 28 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
Hm, is it a "deliberate misspelling"? It's not really wrong, considering the flexibility of the Japanese writing system. I'm also not sure it should be called a "portmanteau spelling" consciously combining 高価 and 高い (specifically); rather, I would say that 高価 was applied via the normal gikun process to the word/takai/ "expensive". —Fish bowl (talk)23:58, 28 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
(After edit conflict): @Je suis une paille: you tagged the entry with{{d}}, which should only be used for things that are so obvious any admin could see without explanation why it needed to be deleted, such as "fish" spelled with a "j". It was converted to{{rfd}}, but that's for things that wouldn't be suitable for an entry even if they were in use, like "a really big dog"- if you know what the parts mean, you don't need to look up the whole phrase- it's justa + ((really +big) +dog)). Here you think it should be deleted because it doesn't exist. I tagged it with{{rfv}} and moved the discussion here, so you don't need to do anything else. As for your reasoning: I'm not so sure it applies for a descriptive dictionary like Wiktionary. We have entries for all kinds of things likeaint andirregardless that any English teacher will cross out and lower your grade over. Our editors who are familiar with Japanese will be able to go through the search results and sort out the irrelevant stuff. I'm not about to second-guess what they may come up with. We have native speakers and at least one professional translator who probably knows more than both of us combined. They already know about the stuff that you're trying to explain to them.Chuck Entz (talk)01:03, 28 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
It might be a bit uncommon, but it's not too difficult to find recent examples either with queries like "が高価い".[40][41] Incidentally, there is 高値（たか）い[42], too.Whym (talk)12:55, 31 July 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
===Noun==={{head|zh|noun}}# the [[study]] of [[cultural]] [[knowledge]]# the [[study]] of [[Classical Chinese]] [[language]] and [[Classical Chinese]] [[literature]]# the [[study]] of [[literature]]# the [[study]] of [[humanities]] or [[social sciences]] ====Noun===={{ko-noun|hanja=學文}}# the [[study]] of [[Classical Chinese]] [[language]] and [[Classical Chinese]] [[literature]]# the [[study]] of [[literature]]# [[academic]] [[literature]]
The word seems to exist, but I'm suspicious of the diversity of definitions. The Naver aggregated dictionaries define 학문(學文) simply as study of 詩書六藝.
Latest comment:17 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese.
{{bor+|ja|de|{{w|Rimowa}}, acronym for "'''Ri'''chard '''Mo'''rszeck '''Wa'''renzeichen"}}.====Proper noun===={{ja-pos|proper}}# {{w|Rimowa}}: A luxury [[luggage]] [[manufacturer]] in [[Cologne]], [[Germany]].
Unclear how this would be anything other thanWT:BRAND. Notably, the etymon given of GermanRimowa has no Wiktionary entry either, presumably for the same reason.
Latest comment:1 month ago3 comments2 people in discussion
It seems that these and other 不 compounds are instead adverbs, yet they have all been misleadingly labelled as "conjunctions"; only whole phrases like 不只/僅/但/止……，還…… should be classed as conjunctions.
They are adverbial. See how English "not only … but also" is listed as a conjunction, while there isnt even a wiktionary entry for "not only" itself, but if there were, "not only" would be an adverb.Ronaldo sewie (talk)23:22, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:16 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: "revenge, vengeance".
I can find this translation in various online Japanese-English dictionaries, especially those based onJMdict, but I can't find a single monolingual Japanese dictionary that lists this as one of the word's senses. All monolingual dictionaries list relevant usage examples such as 父のかたきを討つ ("to avenge one's father") under definitions along the lines of 恨みのある相手 ("someone that one holds a grudge against").
I think the translation "revenge, vengeance" likely comes from a misinterpretation of phrases such as "妹の仇だ!" which are used in situations where in English it would make more sense to say "This is revenge for my sister!", but of which the literal meaning is closer to "He is/you are the mortal enemy of my sister [whom I am avenging]".
If I'm correct about this, we can probably use usage notes explaining how "...のかたき" very commonly implies trying to avenge someone's death, at least in fiction.Spenĉjo (talk)11:47, 18 August 2025 (UTC)Reply
I also can only find敵(kataki) used to refer to a person, not an action.
Derivationally, the Daijsen entryhere explains that thekata- portion is cognate with片(kata,“one side of a two-sided thing”), in reference to the other person in any kind of competition or conflict: one'sopponent.
The "revenge" sense was added inthis edit from February 2021. The anon IP geolocates to Vietnam, and that and the editing style suggests that this may have been now-blocked userFumiko Take (talk •contribs), who by their own self-description could not read Japanese, and who was sometimes prone to excessive looseness in their translations of sample texts.
Latest comment:2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Vietnamese. One quote is given (without date, added by @Lachy70), but is definitely not Vietnamese. Maybe this is actually classical Chinese as used in Vietnam?MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk)02:57, 27 August 2025 (UTC)Reply
I am not sympathetic to the argument that it's "rare" or "unestablished", but I would be sympathetic to the argument that it is SoP (country abbreviation + drug abbreviation), which no one has made yet; now consider it made (→WT:RFD). —Fish bowl (talk)04:19, 9 September 2025 (UTC)Reply
I've just noticed刺 has a kun reading of いら, so I wonder if that influenced the choice to use this character for ら, instead of a simple typo (brushstroke-o?).Horse Battery (talk)20:59, 25 September 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Chinese. Any attestations outside of the film's fandom? A Google search with the strings "sir" together with the components 木 and 阝 all link to either this entry or references to the film.OosakaNoOusama (talk)03:39, 7 September 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Japanese. Originally created by an IP user. This definition doesn't show up in my dictionaries, the only source is this brief wiki page:ja:鉄拳. I'm having trouble finding usages; are the sources there enough to justify inclusion?
Side note: opinions on including "Tekken (media franchise/video game series)" as a sense? Finding usages of 鉄拳 in this way don't seem too hard, but durably archived ones might be a problem.Horse Battery (talk)02:42, 9 September 2025 (UTC)Reply
Yorktown is a very small town in Texas, with a very small and at this point primarily mixed race Chinese population, we probably don't number more than 50-75 people out of a town of ~1800. I'm probably the only one under 30 with Chinese profficiency. As such it may be difficult to pinpoint a non-circular source. However, as a local to the area, I can indeed confirm that 鬻鎮 is the name used. It may be somewhat extant in social media references, I'll do some digging. The transliterations 約克敦 or 約克鎮 are commonly used by non-locals.
Latest comment:26 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Vietnamese.Trường đại học has two senses: one is SoP and the other one is recent. Is this spelling attested for the idiomatic sense?MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk)03:49, 1 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:24 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Zhuang.
I was going through & improving articles of unencoded 漢字. I came across this one & have looked through yedict and zi.tools & have found absolutely nothing. (Maybe there's a slight error in the IDS?)
Latest comment:3 days ago7 comments4 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: (adjective) born of the same father but different mother
Is this an adjective, or a noun used descriptively? I can't find e.g. 腹違く, 腹違け. On the other hand, 腹違いだ is only rarely attested.Cnilep (talk)03:22, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
Generally speaking I'm not sure if there's a good way to describe similar so called "no-adjectives", which are formed and conjugate similarly to Japanese nouns, and yet only seem to be used descriptively to modify other words.
In this case specifically, it looks like a google search of "腹違いが" returns many results which must be interpreted as "half-siblings" and so should be interpreted as usage as a noun.Horse Battery (talk)04:22, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
Clearly, your google-fu is stronger than mine. I found only one instance of "腹違いが", and that was in subtitles of a YouTube video, which the uploader (?) says was an error. It seems to refer to a half-sibling, though.
2024 December 25, asdfgame, “[Slow commentary] The Blair family's terrifying past that happened on Christmas night - Yabatanien”, inYouTube[44]:
ブレアカップで三島サラさんが、(誤：腹違いが!) (正：種違いが!) って罵ってましたよね
At the Blair Cup Mishima Sara shouted (wrong:Harachigai ga!) (correct:Tanechigai ga!)
I can't find any instances of "腹違いが" or "腹違いの" in newspapers or books, either.
Moreover, the current description of this word as an -i adjective seems clearly to be wrong, notwithstanding the question of whether -no forms are nouns or adjectives.Cnilep (talk)23:51, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
I'm surprised nothing showed up for you. Here's three examples from the first page for me:
Derivationally, this cannot be an-i adjective -- the second element違い(chigai,“difference”) is theren'yōkei / nominal / compounding form of verb違う(chigau,“to be different”).
Itmight be used deliberately as an-i adjective as slang, but in cursory searching just now, I'm not finding it.
Latest comment:17 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Japanese. Rfv-sense: Dingleberry and exclamation. @Eirikr You created this article with the alleged meaning "dingleberry" and then @MadPorto added the exclamation after a few years. But literally every dictionary (Nihon Kokugo Daijiten 2, Daijirin 4, Digital Daijisen, Shin Mekai Kokugo Jiten 5, Kojien, Meikyo Kokugo Jiten, etc.), and even WWWJDIConly lists meanings of "a word used to denigrate a person". Eirikr, you added like as if you were trying to translatepiece of shit into another language like it was a sum of parts and not a word used to insult people. If there are no sources verified, I, or someone will have to delete both meanings.Chuterix (talk)05:23, 5 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
The term literally means that: "shit, turd" + "hanging; dropping; dripping; dangling". We also have related constructions like糞を垂れる(kuso o tareru), in a figurative sense of "do a runner, leave an establishment without paying the check" as described inthis glossary of idioms from 1910, and in a literal sense of "drop a shit; lose control of one's bowels and leak a shit" as described inthe Kotobank NKD entry and cited to the 1470s. It's clear that this term has a literal sense that was not just a personal insult. I'd be fine with updating the labels to indicate that this is historical / archaic / rare / etc. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:58, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment:12 days ago5 comments3 people in discussion
This entry, or one or more of its senses, has been nominated as derogatory pursuant toWT:DEROGATORY. As it is from alimited-documentation language, it may bespeedily deleted if it does not have at least one quotation meeting the attestation requirements within two weeks of the nomination date, that is, by10 October 2025.
ThisXiaohongshu video (archived) explains it, stating that it can be both derogatory and positive -- another sense meaning to praise such an entrepreneurial spirit.
There are 3 results if you search the Mandarin version"江北人拉屎". The last 2 results (NGA: 我们这有句话叫做“江北人拉屎开头硬”，我觉得阿森纳大多数情况都适用; some BBS "泰森用我们这边的话讲就是“江北人拉屎开头硬”，专杀软柿子。") needs login, unfortunately. Also there seems to be a non-specific version[45]. -- Ping meUser:内存溢出的猫 plz!📝瞄？💬喵!19:51, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
I don't think this is good enough for attestation. It's not usage but mention. Also the Xiaohongshu video actually says it's Changshu dialect rather than Suzhou dialect (despite what the on-screen text reads). — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }20:13, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
I see, feel free to correct it.
I find the latter non-specific version can be attested in 《西北有高楼》(ISBN 9787550036666), a collection of short novels
Chinese. I don't find any appropriate reason for this not shortening to滯脹 /滞胀(zhìzhàng) for its full name being停滯性通貨膨脹／停滞性通货膨胀 (tíngzhìxìng tōnghuò péngzhàng). Notice that the correct simp. term always exist, so why does the trad. entry continue to be a mistake? First of all漲／涨 (zàng) is by no means the traditional form of胀(zhàng) and vice versa. Secondly, leaving aside the situation in Hong Kong and Macao, about which I'm poorly informed, hoping someone can provide me with additional clarification, the more commonly seen shorthand is停滯性通膨, as the latter is how通貨膨脹 should get shortened to correctly in Taiwan. Last but not least, if the RFD failed, i.e. the proof of existence of the word is found, either turning out to be standard or nonstandard, I just wish the corresponding trad. page滯脹 could be created and the current mismatch between trad. & simp. be split up.Maraschino Cherry (talk)23:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Maraschino Cherry,Justinrleung: Thank you for finding a mistake a made 9 years ago. I think I intended to make滯脹／滞胀 (zhìzhàng), but I unintentionally put滯漲／滞涨 (zhìzhàng) instead. I have created the correct entry. As for滯漲／滞涨 (zhìzhàng), whether to keep it or not, looking at Google Books, I see that it's used in many publications, though I wonder whether they just used the wrong character in each instance. --Mar vin kaiser (talk)01:50, 25 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Justinrleung: So I just suddenly realized, this is just the Mandarinized pronunciation, part of the trend in Mainland China Hokkien where many character pronunciations are pronounced in a new way due to Mandarin influence. In this case, a lot of the characters starting with the /ɡ/ sound in Hokkien drop the /ɡ/ sound because it's not present in Mandarin, so 意義 ì-gī becomes ì-ī， 語言 gí-giân (in Jinjiang) becomes í-iân. This is a phenomenon that (I don't know why) isn't documented in published sources. Actually, sometimes I noticed that some of the Quanzhou pronunciations found in 閩大方 are just the "new" pronunciation. So I guess the question here is, given that the younger Mainlanders tend to speak like this (but not all), do we include this in the entry? --Mar vin kaiser (talk)14:11, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser: Since POJ is not just a pronunciation guide, but an actual writing system, I think this written form needs to be attested perWT:ATTEST. The actual pronunciation should have no bearing on the verification process for the purposes of RFV, just like we would need verification for “apostrophe” forms of words where English /t/ between vowels is glottalized/elided likeli'l. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }14:51, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply
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