According to the Russian Wiktionary (source: G. P. Tsyganenko etymological dictionary), the term is derived from German via Polish - GermanSchweizer and PolishSzwajcar. According to the entry In the feudal Germany, Swiss soldiers were often used as mercenaries and were often employed as guardsmen. Cf. modern Russian word for Swiss man:швейца́рец(švejcárec) (only different in the ending). Calling German and Polish speakers @-sche,Angr,Kephir. Does the etymology seem plausible to you, were German and Polish words used in the sense of "janitor, doorman, usher"? Certainly, Swiss people are not common guest workers (gastarbeiters) in modern Russia, not in the menial jobs, anyway. --Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)01:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can seeUser:-sche has updatedSzwajcar (Polish wiki also has "najemny żołnierz ze Szwajcarii" - "(hist.) hired soldier from Switzerland"). The German Wiktionary also has "Türhüter (beim Papst)" - "doorkeeper/guard by the Pope" forSchweizer. --Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)02:22, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess that it is alluding to theSwiss Guard. --WikiTiki8902:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Swiss people historically found employment in Germany (and elsewhere) as mercenaries, house guards, and doormen, and soSchweizer came to mean not only "Swiss person" but also "doorman", andSzwajcar came to also refer to [Swiss] mercenaries. ("Doorman" is actually theonly meaning listed in the 1908 edition of Hermann Paul'sDeutsches Wörterbuch, possibly because Paul considered the literal meaning obvious. I don't like when lexicographers do that.) And yes, German lent the word to Polish and Polish lent it to Russian.By the way, ru.Wikt says thatшвейцар means specifically "a uniformed doorman in a wealthy home or institution"; is "janitor" a separate sense, or is the meaning of the word just rather broad?Nevermind, see my edit to the entry.- -sche(discuss)02:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I included "janitor" since it also means "doorman" but yes, "швейцар" is normally a uniformed doorman". Well, only well-off people hire doormen, so the second part is kind of obvious. In short, "швейцар" is a full equivalent of "doorman" these days, uniformed or not, in a rich or a poor home. (I typed my answer to your question before you crossed it out.)--Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)02:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I dropped 'janitor' from the list of meanings because in the US, a janitor isn't a doorman but rather a worker who emptiestrash cans and mops floors.- -sche(discuss)02:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. Unlike German and Polish, Russian "швейцар" is an indoor worker (never a gatekeeper) and doesn't have the meaning of (armed) "guard". --Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)03:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I find Polishszwajcar(“doorman”), with small letter, in many standard Polish dictionaries, marked as “dated”. For the sense development see Černyx, referenced inшвейцар. --Vahag (talk)07:06, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Vahagn. Could you makeշվեյցար(šveycʻar)? --Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)07:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Looks like the word has been borrowed all over the USSR. --Vahag (talk)07:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The etymology currently states, "from Cariban chico", but does not specify which Cariban language. Etymonline says possibly Carib, but possibly Wolof or Yoruba. MW10 says Carib atchigoe but Wolof atjigger, and deriveschigger from both of those. The OED says "West Indian" but maybe from French, Spanish, or a creole thereof; that entry, however, hasn't been updated since the first edition. Might this warrant an "uncertain"?Cnilep (talk)04:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think French, Spanish and creoles are just intermediaries. Century 1911 gives alternative spellingschigo,chegoe,chigga,chiggre,jigger. Spellings 1 & 3 look possibly Spanish; 2 & 4 possibly French (= Frenchchique); 5 possibly English. Any of them could be corresponding Creoles. They also point to "West Indian or S. Amer. origin". This vagueness is common for taxonomic and vernacular names for living things and the possibility of African influence arises often for New World living things where slaves were present, though some dispute the likelihood in most cases. The uncertainty is not quite the same as complete ignorance, however. I assume you would have the text talk about the possibilities, but categorize it as uncertain.DCDuringTALK01:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

“chique”, inTrésor de la langue française informatisé [Digitized Treasury of the French Language],2012 tab 2 also suggests a Caribbean source.DCDuringTALK01:21, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This LiveScience article ([1]) uses "betel" in an unfamiliar way:

. The word page shows nothing and Google searches have been unhelpful. Can anyone shed light on this?--Auric (talk)19:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I suspect this term got mangled somewhere along the way.https://www.google.com/search?q=mesopotamian+god+stone+meteorite suggests that the termbethel-stone might be used in a similar context. Expanding the search tohttps://www.google.com/search?q=mesopotamian+god+stone+meteorite+bethel makes this seem even more likely. I note that we do have an entry forbethel, with a meaning that seems appropriate here. That said, the usage examples appearing in the latter Google search suggest that ourbethel definitions might need expanding. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig21:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Ukrainian word "rada" (рада) and the Dutch/Afrikaans word "raad" both mean "council" and "advice". Do they have a common origin - i.e. is the Ukrainian word a Dutch loanword? Do they have their origins in the Proto-Germanic "*rēdaz"?FokkerTISM (talk)12:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According torada#English, the Polish wordrada is a loanword from Middle Low Germanrât, which in turn is cognate with the Dutch word. Assuming the word was borrowed into Polish before any other Slavic language, the Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, and Belarusian words would then be borrowings from Polish. —Aɴɢʀ (talk)14:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the supposed Late Latin etymonlaura (in an applicable sense) between the Englishlaura and the Ancient Greekλαύρα(laúra) in L&S, Gaffiot, the OLD, or Niermeyer. — I.S.M.E.T.A.21:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seelaura inHofmann'sLexicon Universale. --Vahag (talk)21:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Vahag: Thank you. I've now added an entry for that sense and have removed the{{rfv-etym|lang=en}} from the English etymology. I don't suppose there's a version of Hofmann'sLexicon Universale that's searchable by headword, is there? — I.S.M.E.T.A.14:06, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is headword-searchable version forGoldenDict. I have uploaded ithere. --Vahag (talk)15:21, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Vahag: Oh, lovely! The most I was hoping for was an interface likethe one for Gaffiot’sDictionnaire Illustré Latin-Français; selectable and copyable entry text is a big bonus. Thank you very much. The one shortcoming is that the page number isn't indicated in the entries; referencing entries on Wiktionary will therefore by slightly laborious. Still, that is a small matter; thank you again. — I.S.M.E.T.A.18:59, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you like that, here are somemore out-of-copyrightla andgrc dictionaries in the same format. --Vahag (talk)20:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Thank you so much for bringing GoldenDict and that content to my attention. It's a boon. — I.S.M.E.T.A.21:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RFV of the etymology. Middle Frenchéconomiste(“household manager”). TheTrésor de langue française informatisé says first attested 1767, which is about 150 years into the modern French period. A Google Book search only finds false positives; books purporting to be from the 16th century which when you check turn out to be from the 20th century.Renard Migrant (talk)00:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there are two words here, an earlier one meaning "household manager", and then later, either a re-formation fromeconomy +‎-ist or a new sense applied to the existing word meaning "someone who studies the economy" in the modern sense. At least in English, it appears we revamped the old word. I dont know about the French.Leasnam (talk)04:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder too if this might not be one of the many words borrowed into English, given new meaning, and then exported again to other languages with the new signification...can anyone verify this to be the case?Leasnam (talk)04:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While you may be right, I can't find economiste in any Middle French sources.Renard Migrant (talk)18:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need to add a source for that Italianbriga ; intuitively, I'd say it is a br- Celtic variant of latin fr-frango,frio =>break,briser

• Occitanbriga has the meaning of "crum" (a little broken piece)
• brigada has the military meaning of "section"
• brigante, the one of "breaker" seecasseur "hooligan".

While the ultimate source of the word is, of course, indeed Latin,Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru suggests that its borrowing into Welsh is via the path Latin > Old French > English > Welsh (1567). I propose reflecting this in the text of the item. --Focalist (talk)15:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That seems very likely. If it had gone straight from Latin into Welsh during the days of the Roman Empire, it would have wound up looking more like *cynnefnio or something. —Aɴɢʀ (talk)16:05, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Diolch am y golygiad / Thanks for the edit, Angr. --Focalist (talk)20:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Would love to know the etymology of this bizarre term which is not in my Oxford.---> Tooironic (talk)07:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What's bizarre about it? Obviously it is fromtrans-(“beyond”) +Oxus(“Amu Darya”), thus “the lands beyond Amu Darya”. --Vahag (talk)13:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know it comes so easily to you. Would you mind adding that etymology to the entry? Many thanks.---> Tooironic (talk)15:22, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have read a lot of Classical literature, that's why. --Vahag (talk)16:38, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is it exactly as Vahag says or is ittrans- +‎Oxiana?Oxiana occurs in a work of Ptolemy and appears in historical works in English.oxianus is used as a specific epithet for species discovered in or near Persia/Iran. It is not in Lewis & Short, thoughOxus is.DCDuringTALK16:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Trans- +Oxiana would mean "beyond Oxiana", but Transoxiana is not beyond Oxiana, it is a part of Oxiana. The same way,Transcaucasia is fromtrans- +Caucasus (notCaucasia). Other similar examples: Transalpine Gaul, Transjurane, Transnistria. The second part is usually a river or a mountain. --Vahag (talk)18:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.DCDuringTALK19:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to the etymology section of乒乒乓乓, this word is first attested in the Ming Dynasty and derived by reduplication from乒乓. But the etymology section of乒乓 says that乒乓 is first attested in the Qing Dynasty. The Ming Dynasty was before the Qing Dynasty, so if all of this is correct, "乒乒乓乓" is attested before "乒乓", which seems surprising. Is there an error here, or is the reduplicated form really attested before the basic form? And if there isn't an error, can anyone provide evidence for the Ming Dynasty attestation of "乒乒乓乓", and for the statement that "乒乓" isn't attested until the Qing Dynasty? (PingingUser:Wyang, who added both etymology sections.) —Mr. Granger (talk •contribs)22:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, the pinging was not working. Thanks for the comments. I looked up the term in thecorpus of Classical Chinese literature and it seems both started to be used in the Ming era. I've modified the entry.Wyang (talk)04:24, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RFV of the etymology.Lexicografía (talk •contribs) inthis edit added the current etymology. I've tried to improve the style to make it sound less like a university essay (Wiktionary is not an academic paper). I'm also suspicious because in the next edit he/she changed nappe pliée to nappe plié, which is wrong, seenappe it's feminine. Can anyone source these two proposed origins, or isunknown a better etymology? Better unknown than a completely made-up etymology.Renard Migrant (talk)18:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We have some more extreme folk and other etymologies on talk pages. SeeLord willing and the creek don't rise and, especially its talk page. It is possible and desirable to educate users by explaining one's reasoning.DCDuringTALK18:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The entrybuoy and the Appendix entry on PGM*baukną claim the Middle Dutch word 'boeye' derives from PGM *baukaną, which would require a change from [k] to [w] or [j], which the respective entries declare to have happened in either Middle French or Middle Dutch. The entryboei on the other hand claims 'boeye' to come from Latinboia. The latter seems more reasonable to me, as a change from /k/ to /∅/ is nothing I ever heard of in Dutch; but my knowledge of Old and Mi ddle French is very much zero. Either must be wrong, it would be nice if someone could clear that situation up.Korn (talk)09:49, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

boei from*baukną is just plainly wrong. The formboken is still attested in Middle Dutch, and is the real descendant, but eventually yielded tobaken, from Frisian. —CodeCat15:12, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Derivation fromboia is the older of the two views of it. I dont know...semantically this just seems too much of a stretch because not all buoys are tethered (--according to this view, would we actually be calling the 'buoy' itself a "tether", "strap", "fetter", or "chain" (?) because it's nothing of the sort)...but all buoysdo signal. And keep in mind, this is a nautical term...taken from the speech of sailors...and a corruption (possibly also a diminutive) of what would be the correct form at that time,bōken... I dont see this as a stretch by any means.Leasnam (talk)07:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But it would be very much an ad-hoc explanation, so it is not very convincing. —CodeCat15:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The entry atboei should really be split into 2 Etymologies...the senses and current etymology on page are correct for sense 2 ("shackle"); the etymology of sense 1 ("buoy") is missing, and probably should include both theories herein mentioned.Leasnam (talk)20:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure a split is reasonable. All Middle Low German variants of the word mean both 'floating beacon' and 'tether' and show the typical signs of a French loan word. Further, Dutch, Low German, and Middle Frisian as far as I know, have no known instance of deletion of unvoiced plosives. And lastly, standard Dutch /u/ (spelled oe) is a normal reflex of Latin ō, whereas a similar (not identical) pronunciation of PGM *au is much rarer. For the reasons given I'm removing all references to the *baukaną etymology until someone provides a cite.Korn (talk)10:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Etymologiebank (M Philippa cites) splits them into 2 distinct words, 2 separate etymologies: citing that the etymology of the "floating beacon" word is uncertain and may come through Old French from Frankish, or it may be a special use of the "shackle" sense. It is unclear. Etymology.com also cites both, as does CNRTL, so keep those references handy as it is easily cited by many dictionaries, English and French...Leasnam (talk)11:37, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have any insight or information on the likelihood that Middle Dutchboeye is a derivative (diminutive) ofbōde "warning, omen, sign, herald, messenger" (i.e. < *bōdje)?Leasnam (talk)08:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion moved fromWiktionary:Tea room/2014/December#Etymology of Bad Citation.

Etymology given (for etymology #1) has no citations, for an otherwise contentious etymology. Should be removed or cite a dictionary.— Thisunsigned comment was added byTelmac (talk •contribs).

I've moved this to the correct venue for such questions. As to the merits: the New Oxford American Dictionary app on my computer has the same etymology, but preceded by "Perhaps...". Even if it can be referenced with stronger wording, I think we should follow suit.Chuck Entz (talk)21:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Danke, dass ihr auf meinen Schatz so gut aufgepasst habt!Moni

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