NOTE: If you leave a message, I always reply on my own talk page. Cheers.Tooironic15:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for all of your hard work on the Mandarin entries. Here are some reference pages that may be of use:

• Wiktionary:Entry layout explained (short cut:WT:ELE)
• Category:Chinese language
• Wiktionary:Useful links/Chinese
• Wiktionary:About Chinese (short cut:WT:AC)
• Category:Chinese templates
• Template:cite-book (see:都堂 for usage example)
• Template:cite-web (see:苗裔 for usage example)

If you have any questions about formatting please don't hesitate to post a note on my talk page or atWiktionary:Beer Parlour. --A-cai14:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

G'day mate,

There was a heated discussion and a vote about the translations into Chinese. The compromise is to use nested translations. I know it's awkward. I usually used assisted translations with zh template, which creates * Mandarin, then I edit and insert under * Chinese and add : after the *. This is the solution that seems to satisfy the opponents of using "Chinese". Withfantizi/jiantizi I follow the advise and use fantizi first without pinyin, then jiantizi with pinyin, seedivorce, for example. There are no objections to this method. A couple of templates I have created/enhanced could be used for etymology sections.Anatoli13:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

晕~~ All this talk about all the different formatting and templates confuses me. I prefer to use these two:

{{zh-tsp|中國|中国|Zhōngguó}} & {{zh-zh-p|北京|Běijīng}}

I think they look quite neat and it's never hard to distinguish where one translation ends and another begins (if there are more than one). However I also want to be able to link to the Chinese wiktionary for each term - is there a template that does that too? I tried to follow the discussion about this but it went on and on and by the end of it I was still confused. What did theyactually decide on as the template one is suppose to use? Also, are we supposed to add a nesting for "Mandarin" even if no other translations of other dialects have been added? Lastly, what do you mean by 'etymology sections'? Are you talking about etymologies Chinese entries?Tooironic00:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

That's it. you can't link to the Chinese wiktionary with these templates. As A-cai said, the loose compromise was to use nested, even if there is only Mandarin. The arguments that people usually use Chinese in the sense of Mandarin, didn't work.

In English etymology sections, where it is important to show what's traditional and what's simplified, rather than showing them in order trad., simpl., pinyin. I like the templates too but there are too many entries to add in translations and as you noticed, you can't link to the Chinese wiki.Anatoli01:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Can you please direct me then to the template that has been decided? I will use that from now on.

I still don't understand what you mean by "English etymology sections" and what that has to do with simp/trad. Are you talking aboutChinese entries in theEnglish wiktionary?? There was no verb in that sentence so I got confused sorry.Tooironic01:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for being confusing :). There was no discussion about the templates, so I think you can still use it if you wish. The discussion was about Chinese vs Mandarin in translations. I can't find an example etymology section now but I mean, when you explain an English word of Chinese origin, you might be more specific about which one is traditional and which is simplified, if they are different. In my opinion, the templates would be ideal there:trad.中國 /中国(Zhōngguó),simpl.中国(Zhōngguó) (pinyin:Zhōngguó) &Template:zh-zh-p but for translations, adding extra words (e.g. trad., simp.) makes entries too long sometimes and there are no links to Chinese wiki (you can't combine these with template:t template). There are no strict rules, if I am not mistaken, don't worry if you're still confused. :) I use:叩頭 /叩头(kòutóu),叩头(kòutóu) and you can do it using the JavaScript (assisted) rather than typing the codes.Anatoli02:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

Ah, gotcha now. I suppose I'll use that template that references the Chinese wiktionary from now on. I really think there should be a consensus on templates, however I feel I'm too much of a newbie to start such a discussion with votes, etc. Maybe yourself or Ai-cai could. Having a standard template for all this would certainly make new users feel a lot less scared when they start out.

Also, what is this JavaScript assisted thing you speak of? I myself just copy and paste the codes from notepad (yeah I'm old school!), but anything to fasten the editing process would be sweet. Cheers mate.Tooironic03:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

I thought you knew. Here it is with the explanations:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/WT:EDIT. When you get it to work, if you use zh for the language code, you only need to add the Chinese word and pinyin (optional) for Chinese translations. It doesn't work with nested translations, so I have to copy *: Mandarin under * Chinese. Contact user Conrad.Irwin for help. I am quite a newbie myself, don't be shy to raise questions in beer parlour, etc. but I found these discussions too time-consuming and frustrating at times.Anatoli03:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

skype: sven0921--史凡13:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

OK, I added you. :)Tooironic13:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

help?--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˧˥/shi3fan2(歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!)07:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

fromEPs talk-p,fyi[topic:how2hide longlist]

"下,mandarin

dun!only,rel-terms>compounds--mind havalook?ok likethat?:)--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˧˥/shi3fan2 (歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!) 23:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)Yes, what you have done with those templates is correct. However, the editor who inserted the list of compounds did not format the list correctly. Right now, it is formatted as a Translations section, with "Mandarin:" in fornt of every entry and with the{{t}} template. A compounds section should not use either of those features.

I also do not know whether "Compounds" is an acceptable section header. We try to limit them to only a few standard headers so they can be checked by bots and to keep entries consistent. "Compounds" is not a header used in the languages I normally edit. --EncycloPetey 23:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC) "--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˧˥/shi3fan2(歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!)00:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I was only halfway through finishing下 and then got distracted by some other work. As for whether or not "Compounds" is an acceptable section header, I was merely following the style thatA-cai recommended to me (see牛 for example). I think they add a lot of useful information to the entries, and don't see any reason for not including them.Tooironic07:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

iadmire urwork,itshuuge'n'ilike:p!-wasjust longklikin'slog,eryi[like w/tr-lat. be4]-praps fmt changd,letswaitc wot acai says--jiayou!!:)--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˧˥/shi3fan2(歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!)09:28, 15 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

+dito fanyi--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard!15:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

You are doing a great job, mate!

Are you also checking that the blue links have Mandarin definitions (not Japanese) and are not just translingual characters?

I don't set myself specific targets but making sure all basic, most common and useful English words and expressions have Chinese (and a few more languages) translations. I've gone through lists of basic adjectives, nouns and verbs to make sure they have a Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, German and French translations. Occasionally I add Spanish, Polish, Czech, Swedish, etc. For proper names I also often add Korean, Hebrew, Greek and Hindu, often without transliteration. I am planning to at least learn or relearn how to read these scripts. I learned some Korean but abandoned too early.

I see you are reading a text and add words as you come across missing words. Good tactics, I use this to add translations in English entries.

Tbot started producing some entries from translations, which then are marked for human attention, unfortunately, it doesn't happen with Chinese, perhaps because of the complexity. It's not fair!

Another thing. Some Mandarin categories use pinyin for sorting. Maybe we should consider this? It's easier, more natural for English speakers and too common in bilingual dictionaries. Need to check with A-cai about this. What do you think?

Another idea I want to share with you. In assisted translations, I use page name to make sure that the page becomes blue eventually, I mean that there wiil be a page for假 but not necessarily for假的. If a translation must contain a suffix 的 or something, I remove it from the "page name".

I remember you were interested in Russian, if you become interested again, please let me know. :)Anatoli00:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Anatoli,

Thanks for the encouragement! Let me break this down into bite-sized pieces...

Checking that the blue links have Mandarin definitions. Yes I am adding Mandarian to both red and blue links (e.g.山脈).

The need for more basic expressions. I know exactly what you mean. At the moment, I'd say wiktionary has a fairly decent Mandarin "word-dictionary (詞典)" but a pretty shithouse "character-dictionary (字典)". Even common characters like是,的 and有 lack detailed entries. I would improve them myself, but I find that kind of thing extremely boring. Though I have been editing the occasional one-syllable word, usually when it's a little more interesting than the average character (e.g.趁,囧 or牛).

Mandarin categories that use pinyin for sorting. Not sure what you mean by this. Currently, all traditional and simplified entries that are formatted correctly are sorted by pinyin and stroke order respectively.

What is Tbot?

About Russian. Yes I am always up learning the odd extra language, just for fun! Maybe we could meet up over the holidays and do some language exchange over some vodka or something!

The dreaded 的. Yes, I'm aware of the problem with 的 in adjective definitions. Not sure how to fix this though, when the "standard" template (so to speak) for Eng>Chi translations does not allow you to break up a translation into different entries.

Cheers,Tooironic02:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

A quick reference to what I meant by 的 issue, a good work around is to link to 假 but display 假的, like this:假的(jiǎ-de). I'll get back to you on other questions.Anatoli02:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Tbot entries, automatically made from translations:[1], a sample Japanese entry:カメラ. We should request and see if Mandarin can be given the same treatment. I am not 100% about the status but some people are unhappy aboutTbot (translation (ro)bot).Anatoli02:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Sort order.化妆 usesrs=人02 (by radical), not byhuàzhuāng orhua4zhuang1 for sorting (by pinyin). Some categories, likeCategory:zh-cn:Capital cities|bei3jing1 andCategory:zh-tw:Capital cities|匕03北京 use a different approach for sorting see北京. The former uses pinyin, the latter radicals. That means pinyin is accepted, especially in zh-cn. If you open each category:[2],[3], you will see that mainland Chinese are sorted by Roman letters and Taiwanese by radicals. Does it make sense? Yeah, let's catch up. I only I don't drink vodka at the moment, I had a nose surgery recently and I don't feel quite well after alcohol. :)Anatoli04:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Haha, yes I think I know what you mean about the pinyin sorting, but what is the problem here do you think? This whole thing confuses me a bit. As far as I know, simp does one thing, trad does another thing, and everyone's happy. Although I'm not sure if I should capitalise proper nouns. I asked A-cai but he hasn't got back to me yet.Tooironic04:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Yeah but entries seem to follow radical sorting only, not pinyin, that's why I referred you to化妆. I am not too happy, since radical sorting is more complex, takes more effort, adding a sort by pinyin is way simpler, like many categories do. Besides, as I said modern Chinese-English dictionaries are mainly sorted by A, B, C. Hmm, if you open Category:zh-cn:Nouns, they are all just Roman letters, why do we need "rs" at all?

Pinyin with tone marks is capitalised for place names, it's following the rules of capitalisation and word breakup as per Wikipedia.Anatoli05:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. If you check out [[4]] and scroll down, 化妆 (both simp and trad) is listed alphabetically according to pinyin. As for the RS, it is there for the sorting of words in the tw categories. It's a bit of extra work, admittedly, but I guess it means people from Taiwan (and other people who don't know pinyin) can search for entries too.

And regarding proper nouns, it seems they are only capitalised in the entry pinyin itself, not in the sorting header (or whatever it's called). e.g. pin=Běijīng|pint=bei3jing1.Tooironic05:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

OK, let's drop it about sorting order, 算了. Do you think it's a good idea to create entries from translations (using Tbot)? Without human intervention and knowing that the bot is very basic, the entries may become very basic and will require heavy editing but to me having ==Mandarin== ===Noun===种族主义 (zhǒngzúzhǔyì)racism is better than no entry at all. The Chinese word can only be found from the English entry's translation or via search. The differences between jiantizi/fantizi and other tags can be added later.Anatoli05:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Carl. If you think it's a good idea, please supportthis request.User:Robert Ullmann is the person who created or looks after Tbot. Although the quality may suffer, your target of 10,000 Mandarin entries may be achieved easier. On the other hand, it would be harder to overtake other languages if their entries are created from translations but it doesn't happen with Chinese.Anatoli06:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Yeah you're right, more entries (albeit non-standard and less informative ones) is better than nothing. I'll leave a message on there.Tooironic02:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

I have just created these two entries, 援助交際 is also in Japanese. I created the Category:zh:Japanese derivations. Could you check the "rs=" portion of it. I don't know what it should be! The radicals used are 扌 but what is the number after it (total number of strokes - strokes in 扌 doesn't work?Anatoli02:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually the radical (in its full form, so to speak) is 手 not 扌. For every character, all you have to do is go to its page (援), scroll down to "Han character", find the line: 援 (radical 64 手+9..., copy the手+9 part and delete the plus sign. You will also have to put a zero before the number if it's under 10. So you end up with手09. I have amended those entries for you. Cheers.Tooironic02:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, mate. I'll use it as a guide. Before I was just finding words starting with the same character and copied the rs= part. I added卡拉OK to the list of Japanese derivations by adding "zh". If you remember any Chinese entries of Japanese origin, please use "ja" and "zh" in the etyl tag - Japanese->Mandarin.Anatoli02:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

=remainin'stroks;)ps便當《=bento ja--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard!06:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Remaining strokes? Thanks, Sven. 援 has 12 strokes (Wenlin software). 扌 has 3. 12-3=9. You're right. Should we be using 扌 (3 strokes) or 手 (4 strokes)? I may not be able to understand your answer, sorry. --Anatoli06:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

umean deduct3/4?-dep. on cidian[if trad.tw1=13str. here,as it mayalways count str.s o'ful frm' rad.,regardles of display[fe waist腰then=15 insted of13as actual/long rad=肉,not月moon[which=a.short4meat:/--sure way:爪4+一1+友4=9 imaginin'brush strokes[=arbitrary2tho+somtims a.difrentre order/count,fe i/wot makes up1str.>ex.(left) ear as i/險 canbe counted2or3]；） [9=rest ofcomponentsw/o rad.[here=hand>if using w.lin>substract rad.(hand)strks displayd[as udid here;) [carl/acai's way v.gudtho assure-fire;fe icant input althe rad.[sftware limitatn--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard!08:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

腰Han char|rn=130|rad=肉|as=09|sn=13|four=7124₄|canj=月一田女 (BMWV<saysas, ah>aditnl str!:),but str.nr=13,evrywhere difr:/--史凡>voice-MSN/skypeme!RSI>typin=hard!11:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

If you don't mind. Please add{{trreq|Greek}},{{trreq|Hebrew}},{{trreq|Hindi}},{{trreq|Italian}},{{trreq|Korean}},{{trreq|Thai}},{{trreq|Vietnamese}} to your translation requests/templates. Not that I know these. :) --Anatoli01:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Anatoli. I don't add translation requests for languages that don't have contributors who respond to them. All of thoese languages, bar Greek and Thai, have over 100 translation requests - Vietnamese has 266! So I don't see the point in putting them in my rounds if the requests just pile up, although perhaps now I will add Greek and Thai to my auto-list. If they pile up to over 100 though I'll stop requesting them. Cheers.Tooironic01:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually, by that criteria I should probably stop requesting French, German, Japanese, Portuguese and Spanish. Sigh. I don't pay attention to these languages as much as I should.Tooironic01:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

I see your point, perhaps, it will attract more contributors in the future. I do add French, German, Japanese and sometimes Portuguese and Spanish translations when I can (certainly Russian). For languages with non-Roman scripts, I sometimes seek the spelling forproper names, even if the language is not my area of interest or expertise (Greek, Korean, Hindi, Hebrew and Thai), I think it's useful or interesting to know how a city is spelled in a different script. For the languages you listed last we do have contributors.Anatoli02:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

When you add trreqs, please leave a space between * and trreq-template. If the space is not there, the system creates two translation lines for languages that have more than one tranlation to the requested term. --Hekaheka15:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

You mean like this: * {{trreq|Finnish}}? I always do that. :PTooironic19:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that's the way. Sorry, maybe I messed up my notes, maybe you forgot it once. --Hekaheka04:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I had this experience when the JavaScript created two lines per language, not sure where there was space or not. Also, somehow, when Mandarin is added,, I often can't add others - especially Japanese, have to save and restart, complains about gloss format. For this reason, I often add Chinese as the last. Hekaheka, I think I add a space too.

Carl, for nested translations, please use *:, not **, seems to be the convention, not sure if it makes any difference for the assisted translations.Anatoli22:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually I thought ** was the convention, and I was making sure all Chinese translations followed it! Can someone check if this is right?Tooironic07:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, mate. I am not sure where to find the info any more. Maybe, we can ask A-cai, as this was a compromise to have * Chinese: *: Mandarin: he agreed to or suggested. The nesting applies to Serbian or Serbo-Croatian where they use *: Cyrillic: and *: Roman: I also observed bot fixing :* to *: in nested translations. Ivan Štambuk will know as well, if it's important.Anatoli22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

That's cool. I just left a note on A-cai's user page, so we should know soon enough, hehe. Cheers,Tooironic23:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Found it, I remembered A-cai mentioning difficulties in translations to dialects (the discussion about * Chinese: vs * Mandarin:) and he used a word as an example. I was right. Please checkchild's translation. That's A-cai's work. To add another level - *:: (another colon).Anatoli23:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

You asked about this proverb (Confucian saying) in Tea room. I have added the basic entry with translations. The English section needs some attention but not sure yet what to add.Anatoli03:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually it was said byLaozi. I've added an entry for him, as well as etymology section for the proverb and some translation requests. Cheers!Tooironic07:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for that! --Anatoli22:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

No need to delete a talk page when the content is relevant to the article. You're free to markdone and remove the template, but I see no reason to delete this.Mglovesfun (talk)11:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hello! What would you like to know about Esperanto? --Shibo77 00:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to learn it actually. Hehe. But I don't know where to start. Do you have MSN? Send me an email if you can (click Toolbox -> Email this user), I'd love to have a chat. Cheers.Tooironic00:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

Please check your email, it's urgent! Sorry for the short notice. If you can't make it or miss my messages, please join in two weeks. --Anatoli05:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

When you create "Translations to be checked" -tables, please remember to add ttbc-tags to the languages that need checking. Otherwise no one will be able to find the articles with "translations to be checked" sections. See e.g.no way. --Hekaheka04:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Oh shit, I forgot. Thanks for picking up on that!!Tooironic05:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, please check my Chinese translations inno way, when you have a chance! Although I think they are right, they may not be as strong or appropriate or the most useful.--Anatoli05:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Yeah I think you were a little off with your translation there mate. I don't think 荒诞不经 can be used as an interjection. I replaced it with 不會吧. I also added another sense (for indicating rejection). Cheers.Tooironic05:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for checking, mate. I think you meant CAN'T be used as an interjection. I will probably get back to these translations for Japanese. --Anatoli05:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I said I "don't think" it can be used as an interjection haha sorry for the confusion. :)Tooironic06:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

It's me who should be sorry for being inattentive! LOL --Anatoli00:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

达伟 (talk •contribs), probably needs to be taught formatting and templates and whatnot.L☺g☺maniac☃16:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the welcome. Are there any bots that can kind of clean up to make sure categories are added to entries, etc.? Thanks for your help --达伟23:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't think so no, not for Mandarin anyway. You wouldn't happen to know how to program one would you? Hehe. :)Tooironic23:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Considering the importance of the Chinese language on a world-wide scale, and considering the relative ease for someone who is a programmer, it REALLY should be created. But unfortunately I know nothing about bots.

On another note, can we start adding (systematically or not) the GIF/PNG graphics of the hanzi/kanji keystrokes for Chinese and Japanese, like the French and Japanese Wiktionaries use? --达伟16:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

By all means... perhaps if you take it up with thecommunity at large someone with some expertise might be able to answer your call.Tooironic19:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I guess my addition was a misunderstanding of the interjection categorization of "No way" in English.没门 could be used to reply to an inquiry such as, "What if we try to get money from mom and dad?" (that might not be the best example but I'm just thinking at random). In English one might conceivably reply "No way. That wouldn't work."

However, I have no objections to your changes.

Regarding Northern Mandarin "没门儿" may be used by speakers from many geographical regions but its origins seem to be the Beijing area...so perhaps the label is inappropriate, but etymologically it's northern, I believe. --达伟06:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually, now I'm not so sure. I just did a survey of a dozen native speakers on MSN to see if沒門 can indeed express disbelief (citing the "You failed your exam again? No way!" as an example) and I've got a whole range of answers, from those thinking it's fine, to others stating it's strange, unnatural or simply incorrect. My現代漢語詞典 lists impossibility as a possible usage of沒門, but it would seem this usage only sounds natural in certain contexts. I guess it would be best just to leave it out -不會吧 seems good enough, plus怎麼會呢 and不可能, which a friend of mine just suggested. Thanks for your speedy reply! Cheers :)Tooironic07:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Oh, and I also added some more translations of Sense #3, in line with more suggestions from native speakers.Tooironic07:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. My argument would be that没门/沒門 wouldnot be an appropriate reply to the "You failed your exam again?" remark. As I mentioned, my confusion was due to failing to distinguish the two English meanings of "No way" (i.e. the interjection of surprise, and the affirmative statement of impossibility when one is asked a question or presented a proposal). Interestingly, I noted that没门/沒門 is listed as a synonym of沒戲.

On a totally different subject, I've been noticing a lot of Mandarin words linked in blue that, after you follow the link, actually have no Chinese entry but merely a Japanese kanji entry. This can be problematic b/c people who want to create Chinese entries won't realize that one is missing, since superficially it is blue...I wish there was a way to correct this. . . --达伟21:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi 达伟, there is no way to fix it and no need to, in my opinion. If both entries exist, the blue link will go to ja or zh/cmn, otherwise with what's available. It is the same situation with all the languages where words are spelled the same way. Also, the single character entries may no have lexical info, only the character, very generic info. It's the job of the editor to check this - also for the redirects and the accuracy/completeness of the actual entries (with care!). It's only a click away to check.--Anatoli23:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reply. I agree it's only a click away to check, but I wish there were a way to do this more efficiently (i.e. time saved checking is more type creating entries). If the link shows up blue on a list of HSK Mandarin words (for example), but in actuality only has a Japanese entry, that is confusing.--达伟14:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hope you don't mind one last piece of trivia regarding没门儿...it's interesting that the Japanese entry on wiktionary clearly indicates that it's a dialect, Beijing form--> "方言、北京". --达伟14:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't have an opinion on the above discussion, but I just wanted to say how encouraged I have been in recent months to finally have the help of a few contributors who are knowledgeable in Mandarin. I was beginning to think that the day might never come, as I had been toiling away for nearly two and half years already. However, when I see the above discussion taking place, it makes me think maybe Wiktionary has a place for Asian languages after all :)加油! --A-cai15:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

It's our pleasure. And of course it does make it easier when we have wise people like you to seek help from. :)Tooironic19:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Votes/2009-12/Chinese categories. --A-cai14:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I am working on Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, and Arabic.24.29.228.3319:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Good!Tooironic22:58, 27 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, Does your count include both simplified and traditional nouns - two entries per word if they differ? --Anatoli05:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes.Tooironic08:26, 8 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

I moved it based on the apparent frequency in Google Books. Undo it if you don't like what I did.86.161.153.12209:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Seeing as I don't speak Chinese, I am not sure about the usefulness of the "drug" entries made byUser:Psoup. I would love to hear your opinion on the matter, though :)Razorflame13:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

I get what you mean about some of them (or all of them?) being encyclopedic, but at least he formats them correctly! You have no idea how much extra work and stress is created by anons and other users creating dodgy, ill-formatted, unattested entries. Anyway,TCM has complex, specialised terminology; such entries could be useful for people studying that discipline. Though I'm no doctor, scrolling through the entries he's created, I don't see how any of them could be SoP.Tooironic15:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I'm kind of on the ropes about them as well. Oh well. Thanks for the help :)Razorflame15:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

On the ropes huh? Hmm... seems Wiktionary doesn't cover your particular usage. :PTooironic22:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Shouldn't this get deleted as well then?Mglovesfun (talk)18:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Probably. God, the user even created a "Mandarin words suffixed with -qi" category *shudders*. I'll RFD it.Tooironic19:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

I fully recognize everyone's right to his or her own opinion, but etymologically or pedagogically speaking, I would think that such a category (and others like it, e.g. -zhuyi, -jia, -yu, -guo, -li, etc.) would be theheight of usefulness....My vote isnot to delete....Of course I'm open to hearing debate--达伟02:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• However, someone doesn't do its admin business objectively. She/he just block different idea if she/he doesn't like, such asthis].91.106.7.24510:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

An administrator should do its business objectively.91.104.36.11603:03, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

For the hundredth time, I've already answered this question. You were blocked because you vandalised Wiktionary with repeated bad and incorrectly formatted edits. You were given multiple warnings by myself and other admins, but continued to do so.---> Tooironic11:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

What is wrong ofits contributions?91.106.7.24511:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I suggest you RfV (rather than RfD) theseen masse. This will slow down 123abc from adding them, because he’ll need to attest each of themper the CFI. I’m sure there’ll be willingness to apply strictly the letter of the RfV process (i.e., each term gets exactly one month) in their cases. Those that survive can then be considered in a policy and/or an RfD discussion. Those that are found to be idiomatic are likely to be kept, though I’m sure this format:

• Einstein相对论 ={{form of|Non-standard form|爱因斯坦广义相对论|lang=zh}}

would be acceptable to all involved. ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār^(t):Doremítzwr﴿14:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Are you going to be the one to change the formatting for the hundreds of entries 123abc has and will create in the future? They shouldn't be there in the first place; that's why I RfD'd them (though I understand now that, bizarrely, RfV is a more ruthless process). If we keep even just one of 123abc's entries then we must keep them all, which will ultimately mean that almost any combination of SoP/Chinglish words can be kept as entries.Tooironic19:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

The slippery-slope argument doesn’t apply if we require that they be attested. Once consensus has been established regarding the way to deal with this class of terms, if 123abc adds them in contravention of that, his contributions will be consideredvandalistic or POV-pushing. I’m just telling you the easiest and most effective way of going about this. ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār^(t):Doremítzwr﴿22:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

hello Carl. I'd like to nominate you for adminship. If you accept, I'll start a vote for you. Are you interested?--Rising Suntalk?03:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

What kind of things can I do with admin powers?Tooironic03:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

You can block, delete, protect and unprotect pages, and probably some other things--Rising Suntalk?05:36, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please accept the nomination atWiktionary:Votes/sy-2010-02/User:Tooironic for admin --Rising Suntalk?05:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

OK. Thanks. I guess I might need those powers one day. Nomination accepted. :)Tooironic06:31, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, I have also been nominated. You can votehere, if you wish. --Anatoli02:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Gladly! I wonder why they're buttering us up all the sudden. :P Hehe.Tooironic03:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, no idea. :)--Anatoli03:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

There is been a discussion about the lack of admins on this website. I can't remember where I saw it now. So this is probably why.Jamesjiao →^T◊C03:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

good job on 异类.by the way, do you use zhongwen.com (the "zipu"). I love that website beause of the wiki-like link features between different radicals and character elements. I wish we could set up a similar feature on the 字 entries for CJKV (i.e. the entry for the character itself not polysyllabic compounds, 词). right now we have radicals and Kangxi,but not links to characters with similar or related elements...ah well--"if wishes were horses" [*] :) --67.159.85.6016:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
*PS how do you say that in Chinese? just kidding, you're not a dictionary :)
PSS I am user 达伟. sorry for the bad handwriting--in the middle of class.

by the way, it seems likeUser:Nbarth started doing what I mentioned...--达伟17:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

You're right, our 字典 is lagging behind in that regard. But it's a huge amount of work, and I myself much prefer editing and creating polysyllabic compounds. I useWenlin.Tooironic21:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Without launching an all out search, here's what I found for "wishes were horses": see*link removed as it was stuffing up the discussion page*. Re. 字典, I agree I wouldn't prefer to do that work myself. But if an unknown stranger magically did all of it for us, of course, that would be great. Perhaps we can ask Nbarth :) --152.3.128.17814:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) (达伟)Reply

On an unrelated note, did you see thatanother overzealous person is going around creating toneless pinyin entries that conflict with the character entries and the toned-pinyin entries -- see, e.g.,zuoyong/作用 and my recent harmonizing attempts. Yikes. --152.3.128.17814:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)(达伟)Reply

I don't mind anyone creating Pinyin entries - they're useful for newbie learners - as long as they're formatted correctly.Tooironic23:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sure, no argument here, but from a policy standpoint, the with-tone pinyin, without-tone pinyin, and character (simplified and traditional) versions all need to be coordinated...--71.111.229.1901:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

I really don't see much value in separate pinyin entries. If they do exist, the word senses and examples should be in Hanzi entries, otherwise it's very error-prone. 71.111.229.19, don't you want to register? --Anatoli01:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

In an ideal world we would have a bot that automatically coordinates/synchs all definitional content between the four versions of the word (pinyin-tone, pinyin-no tone, trad. char., simplif. char.). I'm agnostic whether we should have toneless pinyin entries -- I strongly believe we should set consistent policy. Though if we abolish toneless pinyin we should create a redirect system so someone types inZhongguo gets redirected to the proper pinyin version with tones. However, maybe Chinese entries on wiktionary are in their infancy so it would be counterproductive to be too harsh on people...--达伟17:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)(I am 71.111 above)Reply

Misclick, sorry.Mglovesfun (talk)10:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, er, are you adding Cantonese now? If so you might wanna add both simp and trad forms. Cheers.Tooironic10:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

No I reverted your edit by clicking on 'rollback' when I was trying to click into empty space.Mglovesfun (talk)10:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

Could you please have a look at啊 - the particle/interjection/phrase suffix with many meanings and pronunciations. I am not sure how to make this entry. I don't quite like Wenlin's dictionary entry on this either. --Anatoli22:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Do I have to? I avoidhanzi definitions for this very reason. If I have time later this week I'll look at it.Tooironic05:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

No, you don't have to if you have no interest in it, of course. Sorry, if I sounded like I am giving orders. :) I was only asking for help because you are good at it and I thought you might be interested. I was thinking of making a few particle definitions but wanted a better example. Anyway, if you decide to do it, I will follow. --Anatoli05:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think this is one of 123abc's incarnations. I am considering blocking him. I have left a note on 123abc talkpage advising him of the vote re: making toneless pinyin entries nonstandard.. however he has ignored it and continued with his quest to make others' lives a living hell. Just want your take on this.Jamesjiao →^T◊C05:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

• The vote is forPinyin syllables only. ---91.106.59.218

It's pretty obvious it's the same user. I would push for a block for both the registered account and the IP. The amount of extra work this user is creating for us just keeps piling up. It's ridiculous and something has to be done about it.Tooironic00:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

take a look at thisCategory:Requests_for_deletion He's been tagging your entries.Jamesjiao →^T◊C02:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes. He also keeps recreatingA Q after God knows how many times it's been deleted due to the space between the letters. Where are we supposed to discuss this kind of stuff? I don't think my admin powers have been granted yet. Otherwise I would block him completely. It's a complete and utter waste of our time as editors to have to deal with this vandalism.Tooironic03:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

see this editJamesjiao →^T◊C01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh God. This is ridiculous. I'll block this IP too. Thanks.---> Tooironic01:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Should that second definition be Verb rather than Noun?SemperBlotto10:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh whoops. Thanks! I'll fix that now.Tooironic10:25, 28 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Welcome to sysophood. Please add an entry atWiktionary:Administrators.

May I ask that you always have a second session open on Recent Changes whenever you are editing Wiktionary. You may mark good edits as "patrolled", revert vandalism and stupidity by either deleting new entries or by using the "rollback" function. You may block vandals at your own discretion.

Note: As there are times when no sysop is active, it would be useful if you start your patrolling from the time you last left the system. Cheers.SemperBlotto19:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

OK, no worries. Cheers!Tooironic07:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Why do we allow suffixes likebi instead of-bi, or is this more 123abc madness?Mglovesfun (talk)11:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Heaven knows. I'm very hesitant to define any Mandarin word as a "suffix" as they're not really that common. Even in cases where a word mightact like a suffix, defining it as a noun is usually more useful. Moreover, I very rarely do any editing for pinyin entries. For anyone above a beginner's level they are almost useless (I say almost because the only way they could be useful is if they were a) correctly formatted and b)every entry had a pinyin counter-entry to assist users in finding definitions. As for 123abc, I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.---> Tooironic12:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

To rephrase, any reason for me to not just delete/move them to standard titles?Mglovesfun (talk)12:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't think any Mandarin speaker - native or not - would even think about adding a hyphen to a pinyin syllable. To my knowledge we don't add hyphens tohanzi entries either, although I could be wrong.---> Tooironic12:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• For your reference (about adding a hyphen):Basic Rules of Hanyu Pinyin Orthography

Firstly, could you please sign your name (by typing ~~~~)? It's extremely rude not to. Or better yet, register an account. Secondly, you're probably right, hyphens are a good idea, although I would still want to see non-hyphenated entries as alternative spellings to aid in user searches.---> Tooironic12:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• The point is about adding a hyphen but not about signature. ---91.106.59.218

Wait, looks like we do both. Cf-主义 and主义.---> Tooironic12:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Are we going to deleteMarx主义,Darwin主义 and all that nonsense?--达伟14:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

You said that Daluren is "incorrect capitalisation", could you prove it? ---91.106.59.218

Have replied on the page.---> Tooironic00:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• Capitalization and etymology are not wrong, please see related dictionaries for reference. An administrator should do its business objectively.91.104.36.11602:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• Stop vandalising the page. I am just going to keep blocking your IPs.---> Tooironic03:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• You've left me no choice but to protect this page, along withluomahua.---> Tooironic03:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, thank you for your messages. I know the formatting issue. I do this just because of the tool, which don't know the formatting convention, and my laziness. Sorry for inconvenience.--Dingar03:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

That's OK, no worries. If you have any more issues feel free to leave a message any time.---> Tooironic03:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I also thought the auto-translation box tool was producing incorrect results...--达伟09:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Do we really need to block a user for arguing that a "proper" noun likeluomahua, which is oftenun-capitalized in English, should be uncapitalized in pinyin? In any case we should set and promulgate a consistent policy for capitalization of pinyin (with or without tone)--达伟14:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

It's not a proper noun, but a countable process. We don't even have it capitalised in the English entry. A policy for pinyin capitalisation does sound good though. As for that user, s/he was blocked for his/her history of bad edits after multiple warnings.---> Tooironic05:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Terve,

I see you're interested in Finnish. Finnish translations are easy to find. Add a language option to Google. You can also add words you know are Finnish, e.g.Intia (India). --Anatoli05:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Nah, I just always add Finnish translation requests to help out the Finnish editors (they always finish them in a couple of hours, it's quite amazing).---> Tooironic05:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Kiitos. How do you help? By encouragement? It's true that the Finnish content is very good here. --Anatoli05:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Like I said, I add translation requests. But I don't actually speak any Finnish, hehe. Anyway, it's the only language on Wiktionary that actually does more than two translation requests a week.---> Tooironic05:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I see you are having fun with Finnish trreq. :) Actually, most Chinese city names you ask the translations for are spelled in toneless Pinyin in Finnish, so Shijiazhuang and Yunnan is the Finnish name for Shijiazhuang and Yunnan, even if the Finnish Wikipedia were missing the names. --Anatoli22:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Carl, FYI, about your Finnish trreq's for foreign place names, seethis edit. --Anatoli06:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I noticed. I assumed "City" might be different in Finnish, but apparently not.---> Tooironic07:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

Consider these 窥淫狂病人, 偷看下流场面的人, 观淫者, 瓦耶尔 (phonetic transcription) as translations (from nciku.com). --Anatoli02:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reponse on储藏室. We'll see if anyone else weighs in. However, perhaps this is starting to sound like a consistent theme from me, but shouldn't we have a standard policy--what is PoS, what isn't? Perhaps your standard is whether it's in Wenlin. I don't have access to that at the moment. But some standard should be set...I guess arguably some line could be drawn between occupation (音乐家, etc.) nationality (中国人) vs. other suffixes (e.g.室), but either way, some consistent line should be drawn, I'd think--达伟09:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't use Wenlin as a standard for PoS as it contains many many PoS entries (that's why it's so bloody complete, as it were). There are no hard and fast rules as to what constitutes PoS, especially for a language like Chinese which has a quite different idea of what constitutes a word than European languages (thus making it more complex and confusing). Let's just judge each entry on its own merit; IMO it's great having entries like 音乐家, 中国人, 储藏室, etc, because they could really be helpful to the average user, and are not long enough to be easily decoded as separate words.---> Tooironic10:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

• Sorry, that should beSoP, not PoS - that is what you were talking about, right?---> Tooironic21:29, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes I meant SoP, sorry. I just go back to my common theme of establishing consistent standards, but your reasoning is strong. Let's see how this place out over time.

However, I also meant to ask a quick question. I wouldn't know if your interests include non-Mandarin 'lects such as Cantonese and Minnan/Hokkien/Taiwanese, but I was just struck by the fact that despite the important (in numerical terms of Minnan/Taiwanese and Wu/Shanghainese), the pure character/hanzi entries do not contain either of those 'lects. if you had to predict, do you think there's anyway these are likely to get included in the future? Thanks!--达伟15:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the random chatter but I just wanted to point out one of the strangest things I've seen:伲 has an entry and says it's from the "Shanghai dialect", yet there is no Shanghainese/Wu on the page...--达伟11:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't speak any other dialect but Mandarin. As you probably know, A-cai is a big (or only?) contributor of Min Nan and has done some great work in that area. Honestly, it's hard enough to get decent editors for Mandarin, let alone other dialects with less speakers, but never say never. :)---> Tooironic11:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reply. I'll speak to A-cai. In any case, here's something unrelated: do you think the professed Mandarin definition in the following entry should be deleted --阿山? I think it probably should be...--达伟23:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Probably. 阿, after all, can be followed by an 姓名, not just 山. Maybe consult A-cai first though, as he was the one who created it.---> Tooironic00:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your advice at the Tea Room. Hopefully we can collaborate some on improving Han entries here. I've done some more research into how Unicode determines variants, some are legitimate and properly sourced within the Unicode files themselves (with references to specific dictionaries). But others are questionable, but I don't know how to fix them without performing original research, particularly the rarer characters. It seems that a lot of variants cropped up in Unicode based on a belief that the characters are actually the same, with "minor sylistic" differences that don't warrant separate characters. Seew:Z-variant. But because one of the major language systems (Chinese, Japanese, or Korean) treat them as distinct characters, they included both in Unicode (dis-unified Han characters) for backward compatibility to one of those other encoding standards. But there's no way to check how they came to the determination that the characters are the same. Check out the discussions I foundhere,here, and ]http://tclab.kaist.ac.kr/~otfried/Mule/unihan.html here]

Other variants that it gives have a little more basis in fact. In addition to the regular Traditiona/Simplified forms, they also have the following

• Semantic variant - characters with the same meaning and pronunciation, but different shapes.猫 and貓 (cat)
• Special semantic variant - characters with the same meaning and pronunciation, but different shapes, but that also have a separate meaning in some instances.井 (well) and丼 (well; bowl of food)
• Z-variants (mentioned above) - same meaning, pronunciation, but only minor differences in shape.說 and説 (speak) or黑 and黒 (black) for instance. That are obviously minor sylistic differences. But for仃 (lonely) and停 (suspend) or朸 (meaning unkown) and扐 (divination), I think the differences are more than minor. CEDICT lists them as Z-variants having "the same etymology" which comes straight from the Unihan database. Jim Breen with JEDICThas stated he treats characters as variants if 2 of 3 factors are identical (form, reading, meaning).

I'm all for providing as much information to readers, but we should probably limit Unicode zVariants in articles if it is 1. obviously similar (to someone conversant in Han/Kanji characters) or 2. Can be backed up by a source other than Unicode. If it is a well known or commonly-used variant, one major dicationary probably will include it. As far as displaying, Japanese wiktionary has a "variants" line right in the translingual section (黑 (black) and鉄 (iron)) that lists every possible traditional, simplified, shinjitai, shortand, synonym variant out there, properly idenfitying each as to how it relates to the main character. I also like that they make the fonts bigger than what we currently have in the standard Han entry. I think something like this would be much better than simply burying a "see also" tophat (currently illegible in some instances) in the article. I just don't know how to go about proposing such a change. What do you think?Dcmacnut22:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

To be honest I don't really do manyhanzi entries. Among the hundreds of entries I create for Wiktionary each week, only a couple would behanzi. I find them laborious. So much bloody work needs to go into each one just to put it at any level comparable to other dictionaries. Moreover, I'm a perfectionist, so I can't stop editing an entry until I've included every piece of information I can. Creating entries for Mandarin words is time-consuming enough; in hanzi entries it's tenfold. Lastly, I think cataloguing variants for these kind of characters - of which many are quite rare - is not really a priority when you have hundreds of simple words yet to be defined. So, yeah, that's my stance on the whole thing. Good luck!---> Tooironic22:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

Please check if I categorised correctly中东 and中東. --Anatoli04:02, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Looks good to me. Added etymology. Cheers.---> Tooironic07:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Carl. I don't know if I agree with that it is from English. The literal meaning is the same in many other languages, might as well be of Arabic origin:الشرق الأوسط (al-sharq al-'áwsaT) - literally: "East of centre". What I meant is, do you categorise these words like Place names, or something, e.g. Japanese has "Category:ja:Place names". I didn't know where to put巴勒斯坦 either, which is not a country.

Also, you probably missed my message above onpeeping tom andvoyeur. You added "trreq" for Chinese. --Anatoli00:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Seethe Wikipedia page. It appears as if it is indeed of British English origin. Evidently, other translations like that of Arabic are probably back-translations/calques. As for巴勒斯坦... "Place names" is too generic IMO. The English entry lists it as a country, so we could always follow their suit. I understand their criteria for "country" on Wiktionary (and probably Wikipedia too) is quite open.

As forpeeping tom et al I wasn't confident with those translations, and they are copyrighted anyway. If I have time later I might ask a native speaker.---> Tooironic00:30, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Ok, thanks for the article. I might add巴勒斯坦 as a country then. --Anatoli02:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, could you check for legitimacy, please? Are we still working in toneless pinyin? I voted against it but not sure what was decided. May leave just English, if it's not allowed. --Anatoli02:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Didn't they vote that toneless pinyin should be soft-redirected as misspellings? However there must be hundreds or even thousands of these toneless pinyins, so without a bot it will be hard to change them all.---> Tooironic04:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Lots of hits for this in English language sentences on Google.SemperBlotto11:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yeah. I would add an entry for it but I'm not sure I really understand it fully. If I get time later I will look at it.---> Tooironic11:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Reminder to self: fix this formatting.---> Tooironic00:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Admittedly Cantonese isn't Mandarin, but AutoFormat is tagging ===Jyutping syllable=== as a noun standard header. Should this header be added to the list of accepted ones? I'd ask A-cai, but he's on longterm wikibreak.Mglovesfun (talk)10:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't speak Cantonese, but I'd guess: no. AFAIK we don't include ===Pinyin syllable===... do we?---> Tooironic07:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think we do accept that, Tooironic, but I'm not fully sure.50 Xylophone Playerstalk20:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

Again, I have a problem of choosing among so many synonyms, some have alternative spellings too:

• 飞去来器
• 回飞棒
• 飞旋镖
• 回旋镖
• 回力镖
• 自食其果
• 回飞镖
• 飞镖

I will pick one or two after checking the frequency but your pick will be appreciated. --Anatoli23:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think that's somewhat inaccurate. Say someone is reading a transcription of some song in Chinese, and they keep seeing the same couple of words. They're not going to know the tones, and if we have 4 entries with the same pronunciation sans tones... they're just going to have to look through all 4. — —13:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Users can still search usingmisspellings toneless pinyin, for instance[5],[6] and even without proper apostrophes[7]. Moreover, toneless pinyin entries create a huge amount of unnecessary work for words which have dubious attestations as it is. Focusing on, at the very least, pinyin entries with tones, or even better, actualhanzi entries (gasp!) should be our priority.---> Tooironic13:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't think pinyin toneless or otherwise is a priority for anyone. — —13:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

You're kidding right?---> Tooironic13:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you clarify this? --Yair rand18:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could this not be considered sum of parts (and toneless to boot) asheping seems to mean peaceful, this sort of meanspeacefulpeaceful to mean "very peaceful".Mglovesfun (talk)15:26, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I would call this SoP. It is an example of emphasis created through four-character duplication which can be done with many verbs/adjectives. I just did a quick check and none of the major online dictionaries include this as a word. I don't think we've discussed the inclusion of these kinds of Mandarin phrases on Wiktionary before. I guess the only way to know for sure is to put it up for deletion. Whether we get enough Mandarin experts in the discussion is another matter.---> Tooironic22:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

There is a lot of these kinds of entries onWenlin dictionary such aspingping'an'an.91.106.30.11903:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Wenlin has a different criteria for inclusion than Wiktionary and includes many SoPs. Anyway,和和平平 isn't included in my version.---> Tooironic06:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

However, this is yourpersonal opinion. And what is the SoPs of和和平平?和和+平平?91.106.30.11909:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

No shit Sherlock, whose else's would it be? I never said we should delete these kind of entries on sight, but rather that they should be held to CFI scrutiny like any other entry.---> Tooironic10:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

No,和平 and和平. But like I said we should get community consensus on this first before deferring to my opinion.---> Tooironic11:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

But the word is和和平平 (hehepingping), not和平和平 (hepingheping).91.106.30.11912:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Duh. But that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be included. This needs to go the community.---> Tooironic12:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, all words need to "go the community". However, you deleted some entries before "go the community" such asren-diming andrendiming.91.106.30.11913:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Because they were complete shite.---> Tooironic22:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

If I had 1000 years (and as much patience) I would learn Mandarin. Right now I'm working on Romance languages - sticking to what I know.Mglovesfun (talk)22:10, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Mandarin ain't that bad, really. Once you get past your first decade, it's all smooth sailing for then on.---> Tooironic22:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Can you explain to all us Mandarin novices/newbies why toneless pinyin is so bad? There's a lot of debate on this but I think a very high percentage of editors don't get it, because of lack of exposure to Mandarin.Mglovesfun (talk)23:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I already explained it thorougly. Look above.---> Tooironic23:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Or, better yet, I'll give an example. The toneless pinyin combination ofshi andshi (shishi) has anywhere from 39 (according to Wenlin) to 47 (according to Sogou, myinput software) possible word-meanings (shìshí,shīshī,shǐshí, etc, etc, etc). And this is just one word! We could say the same for many other toneless combinations (jishi has 35-41,yiji has 12-28, etc). We already have to deal with complicated formatting for all Mandarin entries, plus create duplicates for trad/simp equivalents; I don't think we should have to put up with having to define useless toneless pinyin entries which, because all Mandarin entries can already be searched for without tones, are of no use to anyone.---> Tooironic00:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh and, by the way, for everytoned pinyin entry, many have more than one meaning anyway (e.g.shǐshí means both史实 and矢石;shīshí could mean失实,失时 or施食, etc)! Soshishi might have up to 50 meanings once we take those into account too!---> Tooironic00:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

That is indeed a good reason. BTW when 123abc creates entries in the Latin script, but lists a pinyin spelling, what are these entries, then? If he (or she) is giving a toned pinyin variant, why not just move them there?Mglovesfun (talk)21:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give me an example?---> Tooironic00:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think Mglovesfun means the move of the entry:shishi ->shìshí as an example. The move would require some changes to the entry. I personally don't see much value in toned pinyin entries either. Thehanzi based entried have pinyin provided, which is searchable (with or without tones). No good Chinese dictionaries have entries in pinyin, they are only provided as phonetic guide and for sorting (one of the ways to sort Mandarin dictionaries, especially common in mainland China). I would only keep pinyin entries if they have become part of English or another language, even if they are jargon words, like qigong, Putonghua, guanxi, taiji, Han, jiantizi, etc. but they would have the heading of the other language, not Mandarin. --Anatoli01:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Baby steps, Anatoli. Somehow I don't think we're going to see a ban on pinyin entries anytime this century, so we may as well be content with making sure that they are actually toned. You're right though, they really shouldn't be included, but I do remember reading some convincing arguments as to their attestation in Mandarin songs, signs, etc.---> Tooironic09:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

Per the currentWT:RFD debate (last one on page, as of this time and date) if 123abc's entries are not pinyin, what are they? That is, he specifies pinyin, tra and sim, so what does that leave out?Mglovesfun (talk)10:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Are we allowing toneless Pinyin entries now, or are we just allowing this one IP to create toneless Pinyin entries? Just wondering...Razorflame16:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Anatoli and I are trying to figure out the best way to draft a proposal to effectively prevent anymore toneless pinyin entries from being created. However we've never undertaken such a thing before - maybe you can help? FYI there is more than one =IP creating toneless pinyin entries, however we're almost 99.9 per cent certain it's 123abc editing anonymously.---> Tooironic23:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

it is definitely him/her editing anonymously. Here is my 0.01% which should give you 100%.Jamesjiao →^{T ◊C}00:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I was fairly certain that it was 123abc editing, and if that is the case, then he is evading his block and the IPs should be blocked as they are seen editing. Unfortunately, I hold no sway in the community, so I would probably not be the best person to ask for help in drafting a proposal, especially when it is for a language that I don't speak.Razorflame02:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi there, a belated thanks for your advicehere. I've found the site you recommended extremely useful.

No worries. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask.---> Tooironic23:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I wish to edit the babel template to add the <noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude> string and create the instructions subpage (now in talk) but it seems protected as included in your page. regards--Pierpao12:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Huh?---> Tooironic12:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, i explain:

1. I want to move the instructions oftemplate:babel from its talk page to the standardTemplate:Babel/doc page (seeTemplate:t/doc).
2. To do it I have to add intemplate:babel the string <noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude> (seeTemplate:t)
3. But I cant't. It's editing protected because is included in your page. This tell the message that appears if I can try to edit theTemplate:babel if you want to read it try to edit it as unlogged user. Thanks--Pierpao12:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

   I have no idea what you just said but you seem trustworthy enough. I'll unprotect it temporarily; let me know when you are finished doing whatever it is you are doing.---> Tooironic09:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think that he wantsTemplate:Babel to be unprotected (temporarily).SemperBlotto09:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

No I think he wants me to unprotect my user page. Why would he ask me to unprotectTemplate:Babel? I have nothing to do with that page.---> Tooironic09:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Because you protected whith a cascade effect so you protect template:Babel too. That tells the server if i try to edit the template babel. thanks for unprotection--Pierpao11:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

If you want to understand this phenomena try to edit the image of the day in Commons. It's protected because it's protected the main page.--Pierpao11:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks someone else edited template:babel. Now you can protect your page if you desire--Pierpao12:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

It seems that your friend 123abc is back under a new IP, which is block evasion...Razorflame03:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

w:Protection_policy#Cascading_protection. That's what you did with your page. Thanks again template babel has been upgraded now you can protect your page if you like it--Pierpao04:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Am I the only one that finds this unneccesarilyrecondite? I think it would be pretty easy using MglovesfunBot to replace tra&sim with traditional and simplified.Mglovesfun (talk)10:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

What exactly are you talking about? Which line in which template? There are many...---> Tooironic11:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

123abc, usually such as{{infl|cmn|noun|tra&sim|something}}.Mglovesfun (talk)13:16, 15 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

They are not the standard template anyway. SeeHow to Create a Basic Chinese Entry.---> Tooironic00:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you sort this out please? I don't whether it's Mandarin or what but I doubt that it should even exist. >.> I mean if it is Mandarin then shouldn't it be spelled in proper pinyin?50 Xylophone Playerstalk20:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

It is Mandarin and we also have other words in mandarin as entry without the accents for examplebangzhu.Kinamand21:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

• What is wrong to edit this entry (beige)? Why did Tooironic block my IP?

Check thisWiktionary:Beer_parlour#block_list --Anatoli05:59, 18 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I know. I have nothing to say on the matter. I've already explained myself about six times over the past 6 months.---> Tooironic06:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

The trouble is - some users say pinyin is attestable, so it should be allowed. There are not many users who would care about the quality of Chinese entries and they too, don't agree 100% on how to treat pinyin with or without tones. --Anatoli06:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I would argue that only toned Pinyin could possibly be attestable. Toneless pinyin just makes for a lot of duplicate definitions, like TI stated above.Razorflame02:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

As for blocking, just useSpecial:Blockip. It will ask you for something to block, so enter the range in there and write something in the reason field, then click on the Block button. --Prince Kassad08:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, one thing I don't like about this way of saying it, is that it may imply "I turned blind", rather than simply stating - I'm blind from birth or something but I may be wrong. What do you think? --Anatoli00:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Apparently not. I consulted a number of native speakers when drawing up those translations. It indeed means "I'm blind". Just like 我餓了 means "I'm hungry" and not "I've turned hungry".---> Tooironic00:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

You actually can't (and don't want to) block that range. You are trying to block a /8 (114.X.X.X) but the Mediawiki software won't allow a block wider than /16. A /8 block actually blocks 2^24 (16 million) addresses. It looks like the IPs vandalizing the page you linked were all in the 114.233.X.X range, which is a /16, but better than that they are in the ranges 114.233.128.X-143.X. That can be blocked using a /20. I did a quick CU on the range and there would be no collateral damage for that range block, there is only one person editing from that range. That isn't terribly surprising since the ISP is China Telecom and they barely let people look at Wikis. The block you actually made there 114.0.0.0/24 is not blocking the person you hoped to, it is blocking 114.0.0.0-114.0.0.255. The block you really want for that range is 114.233.128.0/20. I will update your current block. -[The]DaveRoss02:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks heaps, you're a legend!---> Tooironic02:27, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hey there Tooironic. You recently reverted an IP adding hyphenated toned pinyin...may I ask why? Is it because the hyphen should not have been there? Anyways, people are talking on IRC about it, so I just thought that I'd ask.Razorflame03:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

If you're referring to the Range Blocks (above), the person in question was adding pinyin with hyphens which is against pinyin formatting standards, not to mention confusing. Hyphens are only used in pinyin under very specific circumstances e.g. for proper noun abbreviations likeLā-Měi拉美.---> Tooironic03:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Ok, thanks for the help. Cheers,Razorflame03:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Just FYI, we're also having the same problem with him en.wikipedia. See for examplewikipedia:User talk:114.233.128.193. Cheers,CaliforniaAliBaba11:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sure. I suck at Chinese Thanks for correcting these =) --Diego Grez22:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

I have just found out that we don't have a default font setting for Chinese entries{{template|Hani}}. Japanese and Korean don't have either. It's controlled here:MediaWiki talk:Common.css. Many scripts increase the default by 25%. I have successfully increased fonts for Tamil, Sinhalese and Malayalam scripts. Not sure if different fonts should be set for simp. and trad. but it's worth increasing the default size a bit. --Anatoli05:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I have tried this. The size has increased but not sure if the font is right.

/* Chinese [[Template:Hani]] */.Hani{font-family:Song,Ming,ArialUnicodeMS,Code2000,sans-serif;font-size:125%;}

--Anatoli05:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you provide examples for senses #3 and 4. The current gloss allows a multitude of interpretations and translations. --Hekaheka15:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

The nouns became understandable through the verb glosses, and I added the translations already. A few nice examples would not do any harm, however. --Hekaheka15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Actually I'm not convinced some of these senses actually exist. Rfving. Cheers.---> Tooironic23:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Carl. I will pay more attention to harmonizing (no pun intended) the two respective entries for any changes I make.

Also, a question...has there been any resolution on the toned pinyin and toneless pinyin issues? Thanks--达伟13:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

SeeProposal for (toned) pinyin words atWiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2010/May.---> Tooironic12:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl, for lack of a better term, have you see the new "autoquote" function which creates a drop-down box for example sentences? I think it isnot intended for non-English entries, to the extend that when applied to a non-English entry it eviscerates the "main" (i.e., foreign language) sentence behind the drop-down, leaving only a bare English translation that makes no sense out of context...one example can be found atwǒ (notice my recent change to remedy it; i think i did it as an IP before logging in just now). Just curious if this new feature is irking you as well. --达伟17:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hiya. Well it was only like that because the editor didn't use the proper formatting. See俱樂部 and考試 for examples of standard real-life citations and example sentences respectively.---> Tooironic01:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Perfect. Thanks--达伟01:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hello, I have been making Sino-Vietnamese entries and the one formenu in Vietnamese seems to come from the Chinese食单. Could you create an entry for食单? This term doesn't appear in some Chinese dictionaries.71.66.97.22804:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sure, done.---> Tooironic04:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

To anon. For Sino-Vietnamese words you can use the optional parameter Hán tự (漢字) to show it's Chinese spelling. It makes sense to show the pinyin spelling and the traditional variant. I have modifiedthực đơn entry - etymology and definition to a more standard way.

==Vietnamese=====Etymology===[[Sino-Vietnamese]], from {{uder|vi|zh|-}} ''[[Traditional Chinese|trad.]]'' {{l|cmn|sc=Hant|食單}}, ''[[Simplified Chinese|simpl.]]'' {{l|cmn|sc=Hans|食单}} (''[[pinyin]]:'' {{lang|cmn|sc=Latn|shídān}})===Noun==={{infl|vi|noun|head=[[thực]] [[đơn]]|Hán tự|食單}}# [[menu]]

--Anatoli05:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

This entry has startedCategory:vi:Mandarin derivations but there thousands ofSino-Vietnamese words. --Anatoli05:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, but be careful: it isn't always known when, or from which dialect Sino-Vietnamese words come. They are not all from Mandarin; some came into Vietnamese in the Song Dynasty or earlier (1000 years ago or more), others came via Cantonese migration in the last 100-200 years, and still others (such as the names of recently created provinces) may be back-formations that indeed have Chinese derivations but may never have been used during the time Vietnam used Chinese characters to record its official histories. So I don't think it's always possible to know whether a Sino-Vietnamese word came to Vietnamese from Mandarin or Cantonese (some terms of Cantonese origin being essentially Vietnamized "corruptions" of Cantonese terms rather than scholarly versions of Mandarin terms), or whether it's a term that does have Sinitic roots but has no exact equivalent in use in any Chinese dialect.71.66.97.22806:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Regarding the "Hán tự" template parameter, again this is tricky because, as in the case of some recently created Vietnamese provinces (created after the period when Chinese characters were used to record Vietnamese history and official documents), Hán tự may never have actually been used to write such terms, although they can authentically be traced back to Chinese root words.71.66.97.22806:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I see you've got some knowledge about the topic. Well, unfortunately, zh stands here for Mandarin but it should be Chinese. Changing the template back will is unsafe now.{{etyl|zh|vi}} should simply mean of Chinese origin (my intention) but it shows Mandarin. I leave to you to decide. You can simply write Chinese as a word but it won't add to the category (Chinese or Mandarin derivations) automatically, you have to do it yourself. As for the "Hán tự" parameter, it is safe to show what the Hanzi version of the Vietnamese word would be even if it was never written so (e.g. it's a new word) because that way you can link to related Chinese (also Japanese or Korean) words. It is optional too. --Anatoli06:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Good ideas.sâm bổ lượng is an example of a probable recent Vietnamese "corruption" of a Cantonese term. These can be confusing because they often don't adhere to normal Hán tự readings. In this case, nobody can explain where "sâm" comes from, as that is not a normal reading of清.71.66.97.22806:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hello, can you please help add an etymology at洋洋? I can't figure out how what seems to be "foreign foreign" from the definition at the洋 entry gets this meaning. Thank you,71.66.97.22823:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Just wondering if you could help here. If not, I don't know who to ask, as there are very few people working on Chinese entries at the moment. Thank you,71.66.97.22819:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Just wondering if you could help with this. There are very few Wiktionarians working on Chinese-language entries so it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,71.66.97.22804:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I honestly have no idea why it is composed of洋 and洋. It seems very strange.---> Tooironic13:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I spoke to a Chinese professor about this yesterday and he may have the answer. He said that this is a term that used to be spelled with a different character, but over time洋 was substituted for the original character. I'm going to ask him which character he things was originally used. Do you have the CD-ROMs for the Hanyu Da Cidian, and might the etymology be in there?71.66.97.22823:51, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

No I don't have the Hanyu Da Cidian unfortunately. However Wenlin gives扬扬 as an alternative form.---> Tooironic23:53, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

This website seems to indicate that this is one of many words that have two different spellings. What do you make of this?71.66.97.22801:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Obviously it has two different forms but I'm not sure about the meaning of them in any case.---> Tooironic01:49, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh and by the way can you please start using proper formatting from now on? You're creating a lot of extra work for the rest of us. SeeHow to Create a Basic Chinese Entry.---> Tooironic01:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps my tentative format could be a useful precedent to follow to characters w/ multiple pronunciations...just a first attempt. I only did it on the simplified character since it's merely an attempt (please see History):储 --达伟01:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think that looks OK, feel free to do that to the traditional form too. I don't really edithanzi entries myself, but for Mandarinwords we add a Variant Pronunciations category. See蜗牛 for example. You should probably do that for this one too.---> Tooironic03:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Done--达伟14:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

OK, I see what I missed--will include that in the future. Thanks--达伟14:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Err, not quite. Note my changes.---> Tooironic14:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sorry to bug you about hanzi entries if that's not your thing, but if I'm not mistaken, the蝸 and蜗 entries only contain theguā pronunciation, which is surprising...--达伟14:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Not really. As you know our hanzi entries are barely there as it is. Plus it's very rare you come across dictionaries which list variant pronunciations (one of the reasons why I started that category - it's extremely useful).---> Tooironic15:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

On the whole I agree that hanzi entries are deficient, but as regards pronunciation you might be pleasantly surprised--I routinely come across characters with 3 or more pronunciations listed, many of which I never even suspected existed, and indeed many of which I would venture to guess even the average native speaker doesn't know. --71.111.229.1909:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC) (me as IP)Reply

I would take those with a grain of salt. We have come across quite a few mistakes with thehanzi pronunciations in the past, i.e., sometimes they show readings that simply don't exist.---> Tooironic09:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well enough. Tnx for the heads up. Someday it would be great to make a bot that could cross-check such pronunciations against some well-reputed reliable database...but (i) I don't know what database that might be, and (ii) we'd have to find someone to program it...--达伟19:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi. The English entry for Alejandro seems needless to me. Transliterations could be just listed as ====Descendants==== in the Spanish section, like inἈλέξανδρος. Alejandro is not an English name in the sense explained inWiktionary:About given names and surnames#The language statement of a name while, for example,Carlos andJuanita are genuinely given to English-speaking persons. There is no consensus whether English entries should be made for Spanish names in order to have a translation table, but it does bother me. This is the first time it happens in a given name entry. I wish you would list transliterations as descendants in the original language. Nobody ever objects to that.

By the way, did you read our discussion inWT:BP#Categories for transliterated names? You had made topic categories like that half a year ago. I think it's a good idea. --Makaokalani14:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

To be honest I know very little about the policy surrounding this kind of stuff as I mostly do Mandarin and pure English entries here, so I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. AFAIK though the name Alejandro is occasionally given to babies in English-speaking countries - e.g.Alejandro Salazar - which IMO is quite relevant.---> Tooironic02:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hiya,

Carl. To add a translation request for Mandarin, please paste{{trreq}} into the translation field with the language code zh.

It will generate:

* Chinese:*: {{trreq|Mandarin}}

rather than:

* {{trreq|Chinese}}

The former is better because adding a translation won't require any manual editing. --Anatoli01:13, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Ta, I have been meaning to fix that bad habit.---> Tooironic02:11, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

This is Conrad's new addition - to add a translation request. I wasn't sure you knew. --Anatoli02:33, 25 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I've noticed that there is this category, which I thought that I'd ask you if it is correct:Category:Mandarin words suffixed with -guo. Based upon some previous deletions that I've seen you make, it makes me think that this is incorrect, but I'll let you decide. Anyways, just thought that I'd bring this up.Razorflame00:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Like most of 123abc's contributions, these will also need to be converted to hanzi entries (or toned pinyin). There are a huge number though; are you willing to help?---> Tooironic01:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I can't help...I can only edit the languages listed on my currently template of my userpage. Maybe Atitarev can help?Razorflame02:16, 27 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

Debate on the RFV page over what part of speech this is. Clearly, being British, I knowf--- all about cricket.Mglovesfun (talk)18:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm Australian and I don't know anything about cricket either.---> Tooironic23:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Tooironic. It seems thatapple does not fall far from the tree is a copy ofthe apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Should we redirect one of them to the other, or keep both? In the latter case probably use{{trans-see}} on one of them. I don't know which is the most "basic" form.--Leo Laursen – (talk ·contribs)09:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Cheers for the heaps up. I've made the one with the least number of Google hits an alternative form (soft-redirect). Cheers.---> Tooironic09:46, 4 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

How do you handle variants like this? Do you link 週刊 to 周刊? I've seen an example but don't remember now. --Anatoli06:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

See my changes and let me know what you think.---> Tooironic06:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I was think that somehow the traditional part could have two versions but simplified only one. The templates won't allow this. What I don't like is that 週刊 used in the simplified script would not be considered standard, even if it may appear occasionally - I noticed ABC news in Chinese sometimes uses non-standard characters but the articles are often written by Chinese who grew up in Australia. --Anatoli22:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yeah it's the same with遊, e.g. in旅遊. Bloody annoying.---> Tooironic01:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

...which technically is an alternative and not a traditional form but oh well.---> Tooironic01:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Found it! The best sample solution is台湾, which has臺灣 and台灣. Here's my suggestion (simplified):

{{cmn-noun|s|pin=zhōukān|pint=zhou1kan1|mw=本|tra=周刊 or [[週刊]]|sim=周刊|rs=口05}}

週刊 will need to become a traditional entry with the same "alternative" comment.

--Anatoli03:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Um, I thought 週刊 was just a variant, not a traditional script version.---> Tooironic04:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

It is a traditional script version (Wenlin is another confirmation). I don't know if any simplified hanzi have variants, they are much better standardised. A number of dictionaries won't even find 週 but my Cantonese classmates always wrote 周一 as 週一 --Anatoli05:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

IMHO, it's safe to assume all standard simplified hanzi have no variants. Not sure if cases like毋無/无 are variants or completely different characters. What do you think? --Anatoli05:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Looks good to me. For now let's just deal with 遊 and 週 as traditional variants in word-entries, and take other variants on a case by case basis. As for 毋, surely it is just a different character which happens to express the same meaning as 無? There isn't much point dealing with that possible variant in all word entries I think.---> Tooironic05:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi! I'm fixing the protection on this page. Note that you could have semi-protected, as the problem was an IP user; and it is always good to set expiration, as other users will need to edit. Specifically, Interwicket will want to update iwikis at some point, it is fine if the page has to be full-protected for a while, it is patient, but eventually should resolve itself. Cheers,Robert Ullmann10:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hello there. I'm looking for the Mid. Chinese characterdep tsi ("tray"). Perhaps you could help?Eipnvn05:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

It's碟子 (diézi) (Mandarin), (pronounced "dip6 zi2" in Cantonese). I was able to find thanks to "tieh-tzu" - corrupt Wade-Giles Mandarin romanisation of diézi (standard pinyin). Modern meaning: small plate, dish. --Anatoli05:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I can see this word had quite an impact on many languages! --Anatoli05:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. But is that the character that was used in Middle Chinese?Eipnvn05:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the character hasn't changed and there is no variant. See also碟 and子. --Anatoli05:45, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

OK. Thanks again.Eipnvn05:46, 6 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, can you tell me if愛死 is an idiom, as found in the lyric 实实爱死人 (or 实实爱死个人, or 实实的爱死个人)? The English translation I found doesn't have anything about a dead person, which死 seems to indicate.71.66.97.22811:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Also死活.71.66.97.22811:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

愛死 is arguable SOP. Conventional construction. 死活 is completely unrelated to 愛死 and parallel usages of the former construction. --71.111.229.1913:34, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, can you check the new entry說媒?71.66.97.22813:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm not going to answer your questions until you start using the proper formatting, like I've said a hundred times. Sorry, but it's the only way you'll learn.---> Tooironic22:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Carl,

I have also updated mylanguage_resources page - I have just discovered that Word Reference dictionary provides word stress for Russian words - very important for Russian learners but stress may fluctuate in inflected words. Most of the Russian entries here have also declension and conjugation sections. --Anatoli03:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

	Hello, Tooironic. You have new messages atKayau's talk page.
	You canremove this notice at any time by removing the{{talkback}} template.

My teacher says the latter is bad grammar and discourages its usage.Kayau10:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, it probably isn't what you'd call "standard Mandarin". Still, it exists and should be added when someone gets around to it (and Usage Notes).---> Tooironic10:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

As far as I can tell,Analgin is a trademark formetamizole. Do you think that we should translate the word with the generic term, even though the Chinese word seems to have been derived from the trademark?Equinox◑17:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

You mean in the Chinese entry? I'll put both. Trademarks are included here AFAIK.---> Tooironic22:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

I made a typo and meant to say "your statement that they areNOT the same is not demonstrating it to me." My previous message will make more sense with that in mind. I have been as friendly and respectful as I can but you are sounding more and more pushy, now saying"like you did it again" and"not helping". So let me state clearly:

1. I don't agre with your opinion, so I am not planning to duplicate entries when alternate spelling would do just fine IMHO.
2. Using your own tone: If you are going to duplicate Mandarin entries, make sure you do it yourself, you don't need me for that.
3. About your accusation that I am "not helping": I am here to helpWiktionary by adding information when I can. I am not here to help you duplicate entries.
4. Timeout: I request we stop communicating for a while, as I find we are wasting time on a VERY MINOR technicality and our exchange is unpleasant.

GiuseppeMassimo15:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

If it is such a minor "technicality" then you won't find it difficult to simply make sure both script forms are updated with the same information - like Anatoli said, it is not an unreasonable request. Instead of trying to make out that I was being "pushy" - which I wasn't - take my comments on board and move on. Getting into a defensive position is not going to help your reputation on here at all.---> Tooironic22:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please use the following formatting for translations with 的:* Chinese:*: Mandarin: {{t|cmn|假|alt=假的|sc=Hani}}, {{t|cmn|假|tr=jiǎ de|alt=假的|sc=Hani}}Thanks.---> Tooironic04:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for fixing it on thecomprehensible page. How come your edits to it are not showing up on my watchlist?GiuseppeMassimo14:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

No idea.---> Tooironic23:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

If I did something that is not constructive, please revert. I removed that line because it appeared to be a duplicate of the line proceding the "archaic" definition. My reasoning was that the duplicative line could be deleted and the two definitions (one "archaic" and one "colloquial", i.e. modern) could be consolidated under a single pronunciation line. If that is erroneous please feel free to revert. Thanks--达伟21:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

No worries. I'm reverting it now because the pronunciation is different and that should be marked, but I'm also going to add another PoS header to make it clearer. Cheers.---> Tooironic08:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Can you reply to my comment atWT:RFV#孔孔. I'm always worried about languages with few contributors that an entry can fail RFV if nobody checks. That said, that would be virtually every language here.Mglovesfun (talk)21:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

OK. Done.---> Tooironic00:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please seeUser_talk:Chzz#your_Chinese_entries.Chzz04:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please seeUser_talk:Chzz#your Chinese entries, thanks.Chzz23:48, 18 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

...and please see my last response there. I wanted to try to help contribute, but I have to give up.Chzz19:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

RepliedChzz03:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hey, from time to time, I'll make a Chinese entry but then notice that the name of the page itself is incorrect. For example, I've accidentally mixed simplified and traditional, or I've used 试 instead of 式. Is there a simple/easy way to correct it, or how should I submit these pages for deletion?Wierdw12300:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Put a delete tag at the top telling us that you misspelt the entry and we'll delete it for you (you'll need to recreate the entry using the correct entry title). The other option is to MOVE the contents to a new entry under a different name.---> Tooironic14:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Carl,

I think Hekaheka is annoyed when she is requested to translate foreign city names into Finnish. 99% are spelled the same way as in English and there's no other linguistic info (e.g. gender). --Anatoli00:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Is she? Did she say anything? What a strange conversation we are having.---> Tooironic01:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

I remember her removing a couple of requests with edit summaries. I don't mean anything bad, BTW. --Anatoli02:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you look atthis page?Pamputt21:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm not certain. They seemed particularly confusable, but by all means remove those links if you think they are wrong.Equinox◑18:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

I forget, did it only refer to toneless pinyin syllable, or to all pinyin?Mglovesfun (talk)23:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Toneless pinyin syllables (e.g.san,ri,cheng, etc) are fine because they are limited in number, however toneless pinyin "words" should not be included because there is an unlimited number of possible entries. Currently we have to add entries for both simplified, traditional and pinyin scripts - we should not have to multiply our work a fourth time.---> Tooironic23:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I agree, but I was looking for the specific wording of the vote, and I'm not sure how to find it.Mglovesfun (talk)10:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2009-12/Treatment of toneless pinyin syllables looks like you're right. How about a vote to outlaw toneless pinyin terms (i.e. words, idioms, phrases). Also, shouldn'tWiktionary:About Mandarin be a full page, not a redirect? I'd imagine there's plenty to say.Mglovesfun (talk)10:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Butting in on 'toneless pinyin "words" should not be included because there is an unlimited number of possible entries': there is no vote that says that, right? --Dan Polansky11:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Not that I know of. Hence, I'm proposing to create such a vote.Mglovesfun (talk)11:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Please do. I tried to initiate one in the past but could not figure out how to get it started.---> Tooironic21:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-10/Treatment of toneless pinyin other than syllables. Needs review before posting to the Beer Parlor, either by you, James Jiao or Atitarev.Mglovesfun (talk)21:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that looks fine to me.---> Tooironic21:37, 24 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Looks fine to me too. The attestable words in toneless pinyin, if they are used in the English context, could be made English entries, like we havePutonghua,Pinyin,Hanzi, etc. For the reasons Tooironic mentioned, Mandarin entries in toneless pinyin should be discouraged, proper Mandarin entries in Hanzi should be encouraged and toned Pinyin should be synchronised with Hanzi entries as a minimum. Pinyin lovers could have the examples in both Hanzi and toned Pinyin, as in普通话.Putonghua has similar examples but doesn't have tones. --Anatoli22:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

I have asked yet another incarnation of 123abc to vote on this initiative and give his reasoning once the vote is started:User_talk:91.104.62.166Jamesjiao →^{T ◊C}09:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Can anon IPs vote though?---> Tooironic10:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well he'd better create an account then. He should at least be able to comment on the talk page, I think.Jamesjiao →^{T ◊C}23:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

In Hong Kong, it's used the same way as the Australian slang, but it's not slang. How can I add that?Kayau12:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Check the entry now. How aboutmorning tea?---> Tooironic12:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you please add more to this entry? My friend was trying to teach me some Mandarin and he couldn't explain why sometimes you need to use this word (ta1 hen3 ben4 "He is stupid") but sometimes not (ta1 bu4 ben4 "He is not stupid"). —Internoob (Disc•Cont)04:58, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't typically work on single character words (字) but I'll answer your question. In Chinese 很 doesn't always mean "very" - in many contexts it just performs the function "is" does in English. In spoken Mandarin, whenever you use an adjective it must be used in conjunction with an adverb such as很,非常,相当,十分, etc. If you need more help and you use MSN let me know, I'd be happy to answer any more questions you have on there.---> Tooironic12:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. :) —Internoob (Disc•Cont)03:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

We still delete these, right? Like [[yingyangshi]], [[zhuanjia]], [[yingyang]], [[fukuan]], [[huoji]], [[caiyouqu]], [[chanliangqu]], [[chanmianqu]], etc.? —Ruakh_TALK19:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Never mind, I see there's a vote. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK19:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)Reply

Passed.Jamesjiao →^{T ◊C} 22:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC

Good, finally! :)---> Tooironic05:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi Tooironic, what is the best way to find out the tone of Chinese names? E.g.Cui,Zhu,Huang,He,Hu, etc. I can read pinyin but without the tones I have a hard time to pronounce names correctly. Thanks. --Panda1022:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

You need the character - toneless pinyin doesn't tell you much, although you can try typing the pinyin and searching for it in the input box. Failing that you can search through name lists, e.g. atChinese name.---> Tooironic22:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

You can also seew:List of common Chinese surnames.71.66.97.22822:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, this is helpful. --Panda1022:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

Could you perhaps, if such a term exists, add the Mandarin translation of "folk etymology" atfolk etymology? Thank you very much,71.66.97.22808:49, 3 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

No worries, done.---> Tooironic10:46, 3 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thank you!

Hello, I have figured out how to use the templates but in the cases of these two new entries I am not sure about the second tone; should it be 3rd tone or no tone, or either way? I have seen it both ways in sources. Thank you,71.66.97.22800:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

It's third tone.---> Tooironic01:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Note also the changes I have made re "noun" and the template itself. Cheers.---> Tooironic01:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thank you;http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/ indicates it can also mean "wife"; should we add that?71.66.97.22801:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I have never seen pinyin put inside the etymology. Is that standard?71.66.97.22801:18, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Please seeTalk:家里.71.66.97.22801:29, 12 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hello, could you add the Mandarin forfuton at thefuton entry? I assume this item exists in Chinese-speaking countries.71.66.97.22801:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

If Tooironic doesn't do it, I'll try to find later. My quick search hasn't found a direct equivalent, there could be a descriptive term, same with the Korean. I will add the Arabic later, which isفوتون m(futuun) (alsophoton) orفوتون ياباني m(futuun yabaaniy). --Anatoli01:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

He just added床墊, but a Google Images search shows thousands of images of regular mattresses--not a singlefuton. Is there really no Chinese term for this common type of bed/couch? They are very common and popular in North America and one would think there would be a term referring to this specific item in Chinese. I'm sure this thing is even made in China (in fact, I believe mine is made there).71.66.97.22808:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I think all of the ones you've singled out so far should be speedy-created. For examplegoogle books:"very thrilled" gets over 4000 hits.Mglovesfun (talk)12:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Sounds good - how do we implement such a plan?---> Tooironic12:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Erm, just create them by hand.

===Adjective==={{en-adj}}# [[]]

That's about as speedy as it gets IMO.Mglovesfun (talk)12:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Oh. I see. Touche.---> Tooironic12:16, 29 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hello, do you know what巨无霸 means?71.66.97.22807:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

I would like to know your preference as regards the use of "<" vs "from" in the formatting of etymologies in Wiktionary, whatever that preference is. Even explicit statement of indifference would be nice. You can state your preference in the currently running poll:WT:BP#Poll: Etymology and the use of less-than symbol. I am sending you this notification, as you took part on some of the recent votes, so chances are you could be interested in the poll. The poll benefits from having as many participants as possible, to be as representative as possible. Feel free to ignore this notification. --Dan Polansky10:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

There is the voteWiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-02/Deprecating less-than symbol in etymologies, which would benefit from your participation, even if only in the role of an abstainer. Right now, the results of the vote do not quite mirror the results of the poll that has preceded the vote. There is a chance that the vote will not pass. The vote, which I thought would be a mere formality, has turned out to be a real issue. You have taken part on the poll that preceded the vote, which is why I have sent you this notification. --Dan Polansky08:28, 10 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

There isWT:RFDO#Template:derv. (As a follow-up onUser talk:Ddpy.) --Dan Polansky10:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

It does indeed seem SoP. I guessshark attack means 'on a human' unless otherwise specified. If it were a dog, you'd probably say 'shark attack on a dog'.Mglovesfun (talk)12:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Yeah I dunno about this one either. Feel free to RfD it if you like.---> Tooironic12:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Sun#Mandarin show the pinyin asSūn, but both the trad. and sim. showsūn orsun1. Do Mandarin pinyin proper nouns take capital letters?Mglovesfun (talk)17:58, 27 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Yes they do.---> Tooironic22:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

See also:w:Pinyin#Capitalization_and_word_formation --Anatoli23:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Not really Wiktionary related, more like curiosity. I met someone last night who had their pet's name Bruno tattoo on their forearm in Chinese. Out of interest, how would someone do this? Phonetically? So Bru-no?Mglovesfun (talk)12:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)Reply