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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk)03:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Your Babel Box does not contain German, yet you read German language sources. How does that work out for you? You seem to be missing that "kaulen" does exist in Rheinisches Wörterbuch for example (Woerterbuchnetz).2A00:20:6045:8673:A4E5:A8A1:F3B0:B0CE21:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I mean, if I'm being honest here, I'm just using Google Translate. In particular, I was looking for the etymology of־עכץ(-ekhts), and came across thispaper about Yiddish which was written in German. Direct quote: "Slawische Wortendungen wie-ekhts sind nicht in jedem Fall negativ konnotiert; durch das stark ausgeprägte Komponentenbewusstsein bei jiddischen Muttersprachlern liegt eine solche Bedeutungszuweisung abernahe."

For "kaulen", I didn't find an entry on either English or German Wiktionary, so I just assumed it wasn't prominent enough of a dialectal word to make it onto either Wiktionaries. I wasn't and still am not particularly knowledgeable about the descendants of MHG, so I'm happy for anyone with better knowledge in that area to correct me.Insaneguy1083 (talk)06:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm doing that and it doesn't work on the dense style of dict.s or language of a more technical nature. I have no idea what "Komponentenbewusstsein" (supra) is, if not something the author made up some time ago to mean agglutinating.2A00:20:600B:A334:D621:1C31:E814:104E15:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

As to the etymol-ekhts of this affix, I have spent too much time on it.-s is explained under Dutchniets as participle gerund ending. Grimm and others on the other hand explain MHGichts as gerund in the phrase "ihtes iht". I don't believe these are fully understood. I have looked up Middle High German for similar shapes twice, to limited success. Now I'm not sure of any independent constructions in Yiddish or Slavic east and west, but the material you are gathering is interesting. A priori, I think it's a good idea to reckon with various different origins that converged on one bleached morpheme in the Yiddish branch. This means that a mere [-neg] connotation is not necessary nor sufficient. And, while one would prefer isoglosses if the suffix was borrowed, this isn't strictly necessary if the construction was productive and perhaps subject to rebracketing.

Long story short, here are two German words which reach their final form only later and they are nevertheless relevant, IMHO.Kehricht is connotated withnichts, "das geht dich einen feuchten Kehrricht an".Mostrich instead ofmustard is very curious becauseSenf as I would call it indicates a Coptic etymon, and because it seems to be distantly related tomoss;moos-icht(“moss”) being one example from Fick (1878: 701), s.v. "-uht", as indicated by Lexer, Nachträge, cf.-ëht.2A00:20:6083:7010:559B:EF34:D18C:384A19:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Janusz Siatkowski talks about German derivations from Slavic in Zeitschrift für Slavistik (1995, pp. 325-334), including for exampleLodderak "Liederjan" (cp.Lotterleben,-ak). I don't know where to sort these (de with regional labels?). Some more or less relevant excerpts:

>Huppatz ‚Heuschrecke‘ von dt.huppen „hüpfen“ ([…]);

• literallygrasshopper. Czechhubac "Großmaul" could instead relate to its devouring the harvest.

>Klickatz ‚Eichelhäher‘, vllt. von dt.Klickert ‚ds.‘ ([…]),

• I have no idea what this is (if not onomatopeia). If bracketingEichel-Häher is correct and this relates, it would indicate /*(h)extz/ alright.

>Nackatz scherh. ‚nackter Mensch‘ von dt.nackt (BBW III 397), vgl. Siatkowski (1992a: 149).

• From the top of my head, I knownackert,nacksch,nackig,nackend;Nackedei.
• NB: "Bellmann (1971: 34) betrachtet es als einsorbisches Wort,".

> He [that is Zimmermann (1908)] writes, that the Germans living in Prussian territory among Poles were surely aware of the existence of the suffix-ak, which used to form words with clearly negative impression. [translation mine, AAnon]

>Fressack, wenn er zuviel aß (vgl. dt.fressen)

• Fressack orFresssack,Freßsack is understood asSack (thus Siatkowski later in the text), not unlikelardbag). Speaking of which, I read thatSaxon is an insult in eastern European languages, but found no definition, as if it isn't lexical. I doubt thatdouche anddouchebag have any relation to showers;Preußenbeutel shows a clear ethnic slur (or doesPrussian derive fromsparkling as so many inherently racist etymologies of folks and nations would suggest?).

>Dämelack, bzw.Damlak "Dummkopf, dummer Mensch"

• Dämlack. The etymology ofdämlich has always been doubtful.Lackel (DWDS) exists independently;Lackei is not found? I doubt thatLackaffe had anything to do withlaquor orapes.

>Faulak bzw.Faulaks ‚Faulenzer, Faulpelz‘

• That's the second final -s in these examples. I have argued multiple times that English augmentativeass is a relic of Germanic*-az, which is exceedingly unlikely. I feel very insecure about this word and its etymology, so this is speculation:
• maybe related toאָפּפֿאַלעכץ?!

>[…]Mummatsch,Mummatz ‚Kinderschreck, Schreckgespenst für Kinder‘ von „mumm, mumm“-rufen (Hinze 1965: 345-347).

• More variants in Bellmann's Slavoteutonica (1971):Buback, Bubatach, Bubu (p. 211), present in Czech myths (p. 211), alsoBumann,Bubumann,Butzemann,Bebak,Schwarzer, schwarzer Mann, böser Mann,Popel, Popelmann, Popanz, Wauwau,Essenkehrer orSchornsteinfeger,(alter) Josef, Ruprecht, Nickel(s), Krampus (charted p. 168).
• Boohoo, I'm scared. That these were omnomnom onomatopoeia, likeBuhai, is incredible (thus Bellmann, it wouldn't even matter if the stem was Germanic or Slavic).muffled is clearlymouth+full for example.
• Later in the text he argues Kaschubianmumač ...auch "Vogelscheuche" (scarecrow,strawman),mumače "Tiermasken" (p. 331-332 with further references), eventually "[…] →Mummaks (westlich der Oder)."
• I assumeMümmelmann(“bunny”) andBubatz(“weed, cannabis”) (recently trending) are arguments in favor of strawman being close to the original meaning. Animal masks on the other hand compare better tomummy, Persianmuyima "wax".
• But cp.Mummenschanz. The change *m > *b before sonorant is in German(ic) (citation needed).

>[…] Wörter, in denen das eventuelle slavische Suffix-ak durch das ([…] ndt. Suffix-jack überlagert wurde, wie z. B.Nabbjack, Kennabjack, Kujabjack ‚Mann aus Kujawien‘ sowieZelowjack […]

>mit einer Rücknahme des dt. Lautwandelst →z undw →b auchTelubjack ‚Mensch‘, das auf poln.człowiek ‚ds.‘ zurückgeht (Winter 1967: 113).

• Jacke is evidently French in origin!? Although, I believe it is in part related towig.

>[…] hypochoristische Adjektive und von ihnen abgeleitete Substantive mit den slavischen Diminutivsuffixen-uśk(i), -učk(i), -ičk(i).

• E.g.kleinusches Kind. However, a relatable idiom isErdnuckel(“knob”) (knuckles?), where-n- could be dative,Erden,irden.

Inconclusive2A00:20:604B:E47:F6E6:721:AF0:139D23:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hey there, thanks for your stellar effort creating new entries, especially for Yiddish! It's especially admirable that you are trying to include etymologies for your entries but could you please make an effort to source these or to at least clearly indicate where you are going out on a limb? For under-resourced languages such as Yiddish this is especially important as there are not many native speakers to help clean up after us non-native editors. Feel free to couch speculation in terms such as "possibly calqued/borrowed from" or else indicate where you have merely provided a surface analysis (which is sometimes better than nothing but often results infolk etymology and for many terms fails to provide a historically satisfactory account). That way it will be clearer to those who come after you what may need building upon. Finally, it's ok to admit you don't know and ask others for help, where necessary. The{{rfe}} template is quite suited to this, as it will add the page to a category where (eventually) someone qualified will see it and fix it. IMO it's better for us to include no information at all rather than misleading or outright wrong information posing as the gospel truth. P.s. and if you need help with German (or its connections to Yiddish), feel free to ping me or leave a message on my talk page. P.P.S. Check outCategory:Yiddish reference templates, particularly Harkavy (at least the 1910 edition) and Abelson which are (so far as I can tell) already in the public domain and thus available on archive.org. Keep up the good work and I'll catch you round!Helrasincke (talk)09:01, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Well, a lot of the neologisms come from the Comprehensive English-Yiddish Dictionary (2016), which I do not myself have access to but I've taken some words fromhere, which, given it's written by a scholar specializing in Yiddish, I'd take to be legit. Some other words I take from the University of Kentucky Yiddish dictionary lookup, and often it's hard to source anything beyond that as the lookup itself might sometimes be the only source on the internet which has ever written down that term electronically. A good amount of my terms also come from the "Yiddish Word Of The Day" Tumblr blog, which I know is a bit dubious scholarly speaking but I give credence to because it's run by native Yiddish speakers. Some words require a bit more research on dialectal German dictionaries and such, and I've tried to include those in the edit history of the words because I'm not really versed in the formatting of stating source material. If there's any glaring issues in some of my etymologies then do let me know. To my knowledge I already have been adding "possibly" and{{rfe}} in some of the etymologies, and I myself regularly post in the Scriptorium. With surface analyses, I often just follow the entry of the German cognate if one exists. If they don't state some sort of ulterior etymology that descends from e.g. MHG, then I would assume it just comes from the binary combination of a stem and a suf/prefix. Again, feel free to let me know if any of my etymologies are actually dubious, I'd be fine with adding more speculative words in the Etymology section.Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yeah source citing can be a pain, luckily things are not too strict here even in comparison to WP but it's still good just to acknowledge where you got ideas from (even mentioning "Compare German XYZ") for 2 reasons: 1) it's not optional, it's a legal (and IMO to the extent that it's just polite to acknowledge others efforts, moral) requirement, the neglect of which could endanger the whole project and 2) it's very helpful for those who wish to build on what you've laid down, to work out where the idea came from in order to adequately assess it in a new light. For etymologies, inline citations are still best, you could even just use the format <ref>Author Lastname, Work, (page), date<ref> and if really in doubt, use{{rfref|with a mention of author/work or a www.url.com}}. For some references to use in the 'further reading' section I've just made some easy to use templates forAbelson andHarkavy 1910; it turns out a template forHarkavy 1928 already exists. Those first two are English to Yiddish dictionaries directed at speakers of Yiddish, but may still provide some solid references, plus they are public domain. Feel free to let me know if I can create any more for you, possibly for those dialectal German sources you mention. Unfortunately, it's problematic to assume that the German etymologies are all up to standard; many are also often merely surface etymologies, neglecting historical development (see mypost regarding backformations from inherited terms in the scriptorium; a surprisingly large number of German compounds can be traced to MHG and we only have a fraction mentioned). Surface analysis is unfortunately very prone to misleading conclusions since there is a lot more at play than "hey, this kinda looks/sounds/smells like that". But I agree that it's still a valid inclusion, provided it's clearly marked as such.

Just a few points since you mention it (please don't take this as a personal criticism, it's more just to highlight things to look out for):

• I would say it's a bit of a stretch to relateטעקסט(tekst) toקאָנטעקסט(kontekst); the con- prefix is unlikely to be productive in Yiddish so the claim makes even less sense than the equivalent English parallel.
• Since{{R:Duden}} traces Germanzerfallen back to MHGzervallen,zevallen and OHGzafallen,zifallen, it seems most likely that Yiddishצעפֿאַלן(tsefaln) also shares this origin rather than having been independently derived in the language stage we refer to as Yiddish.
• I'd nitpick the explanation offered atפֿאַרליאַפּען(farlyapen), since if I had to guess purely based on the morphology, we have Yiddish prefixפֿאַר־(far-) and a Russian-looking root corresponding toляпать(ljapatʹ) plus the inflectional ending. A cursory google suggests that the simplexליאַפּען(lyapen) also exists, so it would make more sense (even from the perspective of surface analysis) to explain the loan there. A comparison to a Russian or other Slavic equivalent could however be useful. I can't speak for Yiddish but you can have a look on Russian Wiktionary how the cognate German prefixver- translates between German and Russian, you'll notice Russianв-(v-) doesn't come up. I'd be surprised if Yiddish equivalent behaved radically differently (though it'd be helpful to see a larger collection of correspondences), so it's not much of a useful parallel and given the mental gymnastics required to establish the connection, I'd rather drop it.Helrasincke (talk)12:22, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

• קאָנטעקסט(kontekst) andטעקסט(tekst): yeah, fair. Pretty certainקאָנ־(kon-) doesn't exist; my head was just thinking of two words that share a same ending.
• צעפֿאַלן(tsefaln): again, not surprised this has a further etymology beyond the addition of a prefix to a verb. Thanks for adding the proper etymology to the entry. I've fixed up the formatting a bit, perhaps in a style more consistent to my own.
• פֿאַרליאַפּען(farlyapen): you're right,ליאַפּען(lyapen) does exist, and I should probably add it since it has its own meaning according to the University of Kentucky Yiddish dictionary lookup. I will however dispute the prefix part: the English definition ofGermanver- states in the second sense:Inseparable verbal prefix that denotes atransition of the object into a state, which is indicated by the stem. while the first sense ofRussianв-(v-) states:added to verbs, forms verbs with the approximate meaning "in" or"into". So I would feel like these two prefixes are comparable in this respect. Particularly, with one of the examples listed onver-, we havesichverlieben(“to fall in love”). This is directly comparable to Russianвлюби́ться(vljubítʹsja), also meaning "to fall in love". We've got the prefix, we've got the root verb meaning "to love", and we've got the reflexive particle. So I think the calque part makes sense, especially sinceляпать(ljapatʹ) andвляпаться(vljapatʹsja), despite one being formed from the other, have pretty different meanings that I wouldn't be able to just explain on the root word.

On an unrelated note, I will admit that I can't really explain the -k- that appears inטשיפּקעלע‎(tshipkele‎). I used to think it came from־קע(-ke), butטשיפּקע(tshipke) doesn't really exist to my knowledge. I've changed that part.

Also, betweenגעבוי(geboy) andגעבײַ‎(gebay‎), which one do you think is the Germanism (cf.געבײַדע(gebayde)) and which one is the actual Germanic inherited form fromMiddle High Germangebiuwe and such? I've been mulling over this for a few days and don't really have a conclusive answer. Thanks for pointing out the holes in my etymologies though; will try to source them where possible in future.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:01, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the little while getting back to you.

• קאָנ־‎(kon-‎) does exist (794 hitshere) but I doubt it is productive word element anymore.
• The definition entry for the German prefix referring to "change of state" only applies to formations from nouns or adjectives, not verbs (see “ver-” inDuden online, senses 1-2) So perhaps it isver- +‎Liebe +‎-n, but then our analogy to Russian doesn't really work (the main way to form a verb from a noun or adjective in Russian is to adds a verbal stem,-ей(-ej), to the base form (see Townsend,Russian Word Formation. 1975). It seems to me that Yiddishפֿאַר־(far-) is more abstract, Katz lists it as having the following basic meanings: 'completeness of action; initiation of a change in circumstances; debasement of the value' (inGrammar of the Yiddish Language. 1987). It is not specified which word-classes this combines with for which meanings. I contrast this toאײַנ־(ayn-), which is defined there as: 'enter a new state; change of situation' (again, Katz); which I think is more concrete and a closer parallel to Russianв-(v-) (generally used with a primary spatial meaning, with more secondary metaphorical senses, often though not exclusively with what are termedverbs of motion (входить(vxoditʹ),влетать(vletatʹ)). For a comparison, I found the following translations for 'fall in love':

1. אײַנליבן זיך אין ―aynlibn zikh in ―to fallin love with (my emphasis); contrast with the Germansicheinlieben ―toingratiate oneself (literally, “to make oneself loved”),влюбиться в ―vljubitʹsja v ―fallin love with. A form without-ся(-sja) also exists:влюбить(vljubitʹ,“to cause sb to fall in love with oneself, to enamour”)
2. פֿאַרליבן זיך אין ―farlibn zikh in ―tofall in love with, compare Germansichverlieben ―tofall in love.
3. Interestingly, 'fall' in the Englishfall in love also indicates a change of state (c.f. fall asleep) and performs a similar function to ver-/far-. Though, given the connection ofליאַפּען(lyapen) to hitting, it might also be interesting to compare the English figurative sense ofsmite(“strike with a firm blow”):besmitten with ―to be head over heels in love with (literally, “to bestruck with love for”).

As for the root, I also suspect it is more likely to have been originally borrowed from Ukrainian though, but that's just a hunch c.f.כליאַפּען(khlyapen) fromхляпати(xljapaty)) though, so perhaps it's worth keeping the origin open. See also the etymology for "ляп", inГорох — Этимологія). It's worth noting that we also haveליאַפּ(lyap,“heavy downpour; a slap, blow”),כליאַפּ(khlyap,“heavy rain”) (I can't establish any straightfoward connections outside of East Slavic, but possibly relevant here are also Proto-Slavic*lopьjь(“torrent, downpour”),*lopati(“to rattle; to gulp, to swallow”),*lopiti(“to clap, to bang, to strike”), maybe even*xlapati(“splash”)), but without the root meaning 'love'.

Still, you could be onto something; the connection is theoretically possible, though I still have some reservations and would be interested to look into the historical development of the usage. In any case, I've expanded the etymologies forляпать(ljapatʹ) andляп(ljap), making references to several etymological dictionaries; they both seem to have a Slavic root, I couldn't find a mention of a contraction from the Latin loan but have left it in for now because it's at least plausible and maybe some one else can find a source.

• A google search forטשיפּקע(tshipke) only yields six results; BUT, one of them isthis text file, hoparently a word list sted by none other than the very same University of Kentucky site you're using. I'm also working on an overview of Yiddish morphemes to help break works down.
• Regarding your final question as to whetherגעבוי‎(geboy‎) andגעבײַ‎‎(gebay‎‎) is the inherited and which borrowed, I can suggest a diagnostic which you can hopefully use independently in the future. Since we know the MHG formgebiuwe and the Modern German formGebäu, we should be able to use historical vowel changes to distinguish the two forms in Yiddish. We can see fromthis table (which I suggest might be useful to refer to whenever in doubt). We can see that MHGiu became Modern Germanäu, eu (/ɔʏ/), standard Yiddish /aɪ/ (and dialectal /aɪ/, /aː/, /a/). The main point being, no Yiddish dialect shows MHGiu ⇾ /ɔʏ/. Thus, we can be pretty sure that the German form is the one with the German vowel (let me know if that's not clear).
• I've just added another reference template,{{R:yi:JNW}}, which is potentially also useful to you, even just to confirm spellings/existence of words (although it's in Dutch, it's a really huge dictionary—possibly one of the biggest yet-and has a lot of rare words too, some of which yield no results on a google search. I think they are also open to user feedback). I also found the following print dictionaries from theYiddish Book Center, several of which are searchable (by English terms at least, the Yiddish parts don't seem to have been successfully OCR'ed).

Helrasincke (talk)21:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the responses, and I'll be sure to check out the Dutch Yiddish dictionary. Always nice to have a more European perspective on Yiddish, since the dictionaries I've been referencing are mostly American. One thing I've been wondering: do you reckonשטונד(shtund) is a back-formation fromGermanStunde, or was it inherited from MHG in the same way asקעז(kez)?Insaneguy1083 (talk)06:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Well,Stunde descends from Middle High Germanstunde,stunt, so it's probable Yiddish also inherited it. But I would like to make a point which cannot be stressed enough. Up until relatively recently (mid to late 17th century, i.e. long after we can speak of a separate Yiddish language), there was a pretty large amount of dialectal variation in German, a lot of which even made its way into regional norms in the written language (particularly vowels but also variations of b/p, d/t, g/k). MHG also had a lot of variation which you don't tend to see unless dealing with primary sources, because modern reproductions and scholarship primarily uses a normalised orthography based on the the Swabian Chancery. So there will be many questions which neither a lone term from MHG nor from modern, standardised German will be able to adequately explain.

On this topic, I think the etymology atשטונד(shtund) is factually incorrect. Unstressed final vowels are not dropped in Yiddish "by analogy" with some word or other; they are no longer present as the result of a regular historical development (calledapocope) which occurred in earlier Yiddish as well as most of the modern variants descended from MHG (many varieties of East Central German, from which Standard German is largely derived, are a notable exception). Compare:

• Middle High Germankelte(“cold”), GermanKälte, Yiddishקעלט(kelt), Central FranconianKäll, LuxembourgishKeelt (see more at Old High Germankalti; or:
• Middle High Germanmüede,muode(“tired”), Germanmüde, Bohemian German /miːd/, Rhine Franconianmiid, Poylish/Ukrainishמיד(mid) 'mid', Western Yiddishמוד(mud) /muːd/, Litvishמוד(mud) /mʊd/. See more at Old High Germanmuodi.

Helrasincke (talk)19:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Well, I was writing that if we assume thatשטונד(shtund) was borrowed fromGermanStunde, then we could presume the final vowel to have been dropped by analogy of words that were inherited from MHG which lost their final vowels via apocope. We've seen several examples of distinctly Daytshmerish words that were subsequently "Yiddishized" by applying features more consistent with Yiddish phonological developments and such (cf.קורצשלאָס(kurtsshlos), and alsothis; quote: "As with the Yiddishized Americanisms, some Germanisms have been modified in order to appear less like German: “bullfight”der oksnfekht (notoksnkamf); ... “short circuit”der kurtsshlos (notkurtsshlus).")

On the flip side, if we assume thatשטונד(shtund) was instead inherited from MHG, then of course this is a standard development that is also observed in numerous other Yiddish words. Hence my question earlier on whether it was 1) inherited or 2) borrowed from German and subsequently Yiddishized via removal of final vowel.Insaneguy1083 (talk)22:06, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

In the absence of compelling information to the contrary, the simplest explanation is usually the best. As I said, the form without the final vowel already coexisted in MHG with the form in final vowel, so this one seems a no-brainer. Second, that's interesting. If, as you claim at the entry forקורצשלאָס(kurtsshlos),שלוס(shlus) andשלאָס(shlos) are semantically unrelated, I don't understand then why you would have marked them as a doublets of each other atשלוס(shlus)? Further complicating the argument is that Grimm lists 'dorst' as an documented older form ofDurst. Something's gotta give.Helrasincke (talk)20:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

They're doublets becauseשלוס(shlus) was borrowed from German, whileשלאָס(shlos) was inherited from MHG. Doublets don't have to be related semantically (and "related semantically" is just a fancy term meaning "means the same or a similar thing"), they just have to come from the same origin which they do here, the former via German and the latter directly from MHG.Insaneguy1083 (talk)20:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

But that's precisely my point. Because there has been (from what I can see) no significant changes in meaning, if they both ultimately come from MHGsliezen, OHGsliozen then either they are semantically related (which doesn't mean they have to have the same or similar meaning, but rather that there is a conceptual relation - which may nonetheless be distinct), in which case they are also doublets, or they are not semantically related and thus not doublets. The nouns derive from different (but related) senses of the verb, 'to end'Schluss(“end”), 'to close, lock'Schloss(“lock”), and 'to surround'Schloss(“castle”) respectively. It all depends on how you assess the conceptual relation between conclude, close, shut, lock. For reference, Germanschließen has 26 distinct meanings & submeanings given in the Duden. Yet, I've actually never heard anyone suggest that GermanSchluss andSchloss are doublets, so perhaps we should raise the question.

Also, I do note that Yiddishשעה(sheh,“hour”) also exists in addition, but this doesn't exclude the possibility that Yiddish retained both. In fact, the word for 'hour' given in Levitas'Shemot Devarim isשטונד(shtund), given twice, and both times glossed by GermanStund (notStunde; this was centuries before German had any kind of strictly standardised spelling either). It is worth remembering this dictionary was published in 1542, which is not long after the language branched off because as Beider writes inThe Origins of Yiddish Dialects:

"If we take into account purely linguistic criteria, it appears that the age of Yiddish is often overestimated. It is worth speaking about Yiddish as a separate language only from the fifteenth century onward. Any placement of the “birth” of Yiddish in a period before the Black Death is speculative."Helrasincke (talk)21:14, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I've made a template{{R:yi:CEYD}} for S-V&G's dictionary. Note that|1= is theEnglish entry, since it's an English-to-Yiddish dictionary. —Mahāgaja ·talk11:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Although I'd argue that it can go both ways, since (especially on the online version) I can write the Yiddish word and get various results in English pertaining to the Yiddish word.

(Plus what do I do with words with many meanings? List every single English word that leads to that Yiddish word?)Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Also I'm assuming the page number stuff isn't really for me.Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think that having a template is great (because it means I no longer have to copy and paste the reference from my older entries), especially for English entries with only one corresponding Yiddish entry and vice versa (e.g.פֿלאָוט(flout)), but for Yiddish words with many other senses (e.g.שטעקן(shtekn)) I think it'd simply suffice to add the Yiddish entry instead. Just my two cents.Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:37, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I guess the issue is I only have the dead-tree edition. Is the online version available for everyone, or is it behind a paywall? If it's available for everyone, then we should link to the entry.{{R:ga:NEID}} works this way for Irish: it's an English-to-Irish dictionary, but online you can search for the Irish word and get all the entries where it appears. —Mahāgaja ·talk15:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sadly the online one is paywalled. I paid a few US Dollars to get a one-month unlimited searches subscription, and that's why I can access so many words on there (including, as it turns out,words addedafter 2016). Free accounts do exist and if one so desires one can fact-check my additions to Wiktionary, but each free account only permits 5 searches and eventually I just got tired of using burner emails to get just a few words. And even then, you need an account to even see the results of the search, so it's not really possible to link to the entry itself.Insaneguy1083 (talk)15:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

In that case, let's keep referencing the book. That way, people can at least go to a library to see the book without paying for it. As for Yiddish words with many senses, it's probably sufficient to list one English entry per etymology and part of speech. Alternatively, we can use{{R:yi:CYED}} instead and list the Yiddish entry. —Mahāgaja ·talk20:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

On the topic of dictionaries, do you reckonthis is a reliable source from which to source Yiddish words for Wiktionary? It seems to also include dialectal pronunciations of certain words, likemalkhume forמלחמה(milkhome).Insaneguy1083 (talk)21:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please stop with the Karelian entries for just a second and look at the fixes I add to the entries you created. Karelian is not unified - so most of the entries you're creating following Zaykov will not be the same in Tver Karelian, and should thus not have a Tver Karelian inflection table. Every Karelian entry does need a{{krl-regional}} table at the beginning: It shows theetymologically related variants of either standard. If you don't know the Tver Karelian variant, leave that parameter entry and the page will be added to a cleanup category.Please take the time to familiarise yourself with the language and its phonology and morphologybefore you add entries, so you can pick up errors and I don't have to go after you.Thadh (talk)18:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I apologize. I just saw a few terms in a dictionary that I thought were interesting. Still lots for me to learn, it seems.Insaneguy1083 (talk)18:26, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I am glad that you like the language, and I encourage you to edit it, but onlyafter you've familiarised yourself with how the language works and how our entries are written.Thadh (talk)18:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, I'll look into it. Although I did encounter quite a few nouns without declensions or{{krl-regional}} tables while looking through them to check for declension patterns and such.Insaneguy1083 (talk)18:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

That's due to us formalising Karelian as a pluricentric language being very recent. Most of the entries have been created before that, and thus before the creation of{{krl-regional}}. SeeWT:AKRL.Thadh (talk)19:15, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've createdModule:number list/data/yi based on the information from{{cardinalbox}}. I'd like to convert{{cardinalbox}} to{{number box}} which is the modern/cleaner way of doing things (since the data is stored in the data file).

You can see what the change looks like here:old andnew (diff)

Do you have any objections to this? Do you think I need to bring this to beer parlor or somewhere? I don't know who makes decisions for Yiddish.tbm (talk)07:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't make the decisions, but I think it looks fine. You could try the beer parlor, although Mahagaja could be one to ask regarding Yiddish decisions. I'm not sure either.Insaneguy1083 (talk)09:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Since I started the conversion here already and there aren't many active editors, let me just ping @Mahagaja here and see if there are objections. I did some tests and I'm pretty sure the conversion to{{number box}} won't break anything. I also handled the "opt" info (Adjectival form and Counting form)tbm (talk)23:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't know enough about these templates to have a strong opinion. If it doesn't break anything, go for it! —Mahāgaja ·talk06:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Mahagaja Thanks for your feedback. I've gone ahead and made the change. I compared before and after and don't see any regressions but please ping me if you notice any problems.tbm (talk)08:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

In the sentence"Усё гешэ́фты не́йкія водзіць з ім" the word"усё" has the same meaning as the Russian adverbвсё and is translated asalways,all the time,constantly. The words "усё" and "усе" are different, the presence or absence of dots aboveё makes a big difference in this context.Ssvb (talk)08:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

So I suppose the translation should be "they (sg.) are always conducting some kinds of geshefts with him"?Insaneguy1083 (talk)08:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

To be fair, I'm not all that happy about this particular example. It's too short and lacks context. Extra explanations in the translated text are only making everything more messy. I think that it's probably better to just provide sufficiently long quotations from real books, taking advantage of the "Wiktionary is not paper" aspect of theWT:NOT policy. I have addedone quotation to theгешэфт article and I can add even more of them. BTW, I would generally appreciate native English speakers to watch my back and monitor whether my translations of book quotations are alright and grammatically correct. Don't hesitate to edit my translations if necessary. Don't worry about introducing mistakes, I will check if the English translations still properly convey the intended message of the original Belarusian text after your or anybody else's edits to step in if anything is off. —Ssvb (talk)18:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also I would suggest updating the definition ofусё(usjó), because the current one doesn't include the meaning of always.Insaneguy1083 (talk)09:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, that was good suggestion and looks likeUser:Helrasincke already took care of it. But there are still a lot of inaccuracies or incomplete information in many other places. —Ssvb (talk)18:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hey, when adding pronunciations, please make sure to use the IPA symbol⟨ɡ⟩ rather than the normal⟨g⟩. Thanks! —Mahāgaja ·talk09:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

On PC I just type IPA usinghttps://ipa.typeit.org/full/. If it comes out with the incorrect "g", I'm not entirely certain how to fix it other than just saving the IPA ⟨ɡ⟩ in some text file or something. Same goes for other IPA letters. I've been aware of this issue for a while now (I do read new edits from time to time), but again, haven't really found any real solution that doesn't involve saving the specific character somewhere.Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Update: turns out the website I use does have the IPA g, it's just (for some reason) not the default when I type in "g" into the text box. I'll click that ɡ next time.Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

If you are (or become) familiar withXSAMPA, you can use{{subst:x2IPA}} (and its allies,{{subst:x2i}} and{{subst:x2ipachar}}) to convert regular ASCII characters into IPA. —Mahāgaja ·talk12:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Athttps://ipa.typeit.org/full/ if you press alt-G four times, ɡ appears. —Mahāgaja ·talk12:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi there!

I know you have only made two entries in Mansi, but before making them, please readWiktionary:About Mansi, and work according to that.In regards to usage examples, I would rather leave them out entirely for the sake of being consistent with dialects. Or if you are making an entry from one specific dialect, add a label and do not use the declension/possessive tables, since those were made for Sosva Mansi.Ewithu (talk)16:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please use the col-auto template in the derived/related terms sectionsНаименее Полезное (talk)19:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Okay!Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

thanks :)Наименее Полезное (talk)19:44, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

But then I guess I just don't show the definitions of the words?Insaneguy1083 (talk)20:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

WdymНаименее Полезное (talk)21:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Never mind, I figured it out. col-auto is still relatively new to me.Insaneguy1083 (talk)22:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Please also use "From" in etimologies and "af|be||" instead of "suffix|be||", thanks!Наименее Полезное (talk)15:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 Please be more carefulНаименее Полезное (talk)22:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 Again, use "from" at the beginning of etymologiesНаименее Полезное (talk)19:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 Where did you find this alternative pronunciation ofдзот?Наименее Полезное (talk)17:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The Russian-language Wiktionary ofthe Russian term. I'm not 100% sure it applies to the Belarusian term; hell, I'm not even sure it applies to the Russian term. But being originally an initialism, it would kinda make sense to partially pronounce the letters separately.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've never seen anyone say that in my life, and as it's a term borrowed from Russian, it's not entirely certain that the pronunciation will be the same, be carefulНаименее Полезное (talk)17:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Наименее Полезное: Yes, there are surely local accents and pronunciation differences.

For example, the Belarusians have no soundщ and tend to pronounce the Russian wordщётка incorrectly as two separate soundsш andч like inthis video. Here's another video with a different guy also having awrong pronunciation of щ in the Russian wordпомещение and additionally havingless than ideal pronunciation ofч. Most Belarusians have an accent in their Russian speech without realizing this. But it's fine as long as "перетряхивать тех, кто врёт" is not mispronounced as "ператрахивать тех, кто в рот" ;-)

So I won't be surprised if "дз" in the Russian wordдзот is actually pronounced as two separate sounds by the true native Russians. It would be very interesting to have it recorded for comparison. --Ssvb (talk)21:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083: If in doubt, you can look up the standard Belarusian literary pronunciation athttps://corpus.by/VoicedElectronicGrammaticalDictionary/?lang=en (that's a web interface for a collection of the available orthoepic dictionaries). --Ssvb (talk)22:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see that you still don't use the inh+/bor+/com+ and col-auto template, please...Наименее Полезное (talk)12:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hmm? I do use inh+, bor+ and col-auto.Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Наименее Полезное: Just for the record, which policy requires this? --Ssvb (talk)19:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I read other Slavic languages pages and it's like it's a standard to use themНаименее Полезное (talk)23:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

In yourrecent edit, you added some sentences as the usage examples forдзот(dzot). But these are the quotations directly taken from theKandrat Krapiva's Explanatory Dictionary of the Belarusian Language (1977-1984). Also while doing so, the information about the original authors of these quotations ("Шчарбатаў" and "Дудо") was stripped, but this is something that we shouldn't do. Additionally, directly copying content of another dictionary is a questionable practice by itself. It's best to take quotations from Wikisource or Google Books. --Ssvb (talk)09:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I know I probably should've used some template like quote-book or something, but the truth is just that I'm not good with using templates outside of coi and ux. Thanks for the reminder nonetheless.Insaneguy1083 (talk)11:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083: The quote-book template indeed looks menacing, but it's probably not necessary to use all of its features. TheWT:QUOTE policy says "Ideally, quotations should" and lists some bullet points. But I wonder how much of this is the actual requirement? --Ssvb (talk)14:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083: I created atopic in BP with a question about what could possibly constitute a minimalistic quotation. --Ssvb (talk)23:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Rediff: "Szwiejcaryja" is unattested and uses a very uncommon older Łacinka. Can you not add something that can't be attested? "Šviejcaryja" is the standard Łacinka.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)05:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sure.Insaneguy1083 (talk)05:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Moreover, Łacinka is based onTaraškievica, so "Švajcaryja" is more accurate. Šviejcaryja" is a recent invention.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)05:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

You can always add the Łacinka to the actual Taraškievica entry.Insaneguy1083 (talk)05:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Taraškievica entries are mostly soft-redirect, alt form entries. Łacinka based on the government spelling are simply wrong in many cases. "śnieh" is Łacinka for bothснег andсьнег. ""snieh"" is simply wrong!Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)06:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I have removed "Šviejcaryja" as well. Simply unattestable. "Švajcaryja" is but barely.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)06:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The thing is, Łacinka is a Latinization scheme. Just because no one's used it doesn't mean it won't have a Łacinka form. So whether the form is "attestable" is pretty irrelevant. Since so few people even use Łacinka in 2024, there's bound to be lesser-used words which one might consider "unattestable". To some degree, a lot of these are hypothetical forms, like I don't imagine a lot of people are going around writingpradzotaŭ. Personally I would include bothŠviejcaryja andŠvajcaryja at least. @Ssvb @Наименее Полезное what do you think?Insaneguy1083 (talk)06:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I strongly oppose wholesale addition of Łacinka spellings in all Belarusian terms. I expressed this several times. It's exactly what I feared when we allow Łacinka spellings to be added as alt forms - that we get a lot of rubbish, made up forms. We already have a Wiktionary transliteration standard. Transliterations arenot words. We only addalternative forms as real spellings, actually used.

I can see inWiktionary:About Belarusian drafted by @Ssvb all Łacinka spellings are based on Taraškievica.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)06:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Found this old topic:Adding Łacinka spelling to Belarusian wordsAnatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)06:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I stand with @Atitarev.Наименее Полезное (talk)19:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev: The word "Švajcaryja" can be found, for example, in the archives ofChryścijanskaja Dumka 1938, № 14 (162), page 5. It was a journal printed on paper. There are certainly additional examples in the other sources, but the problem is that many paper books, journals and newspapers from 1937 (and newer) haven't become public domain yet. Belarusian Wikisource currently only can offer a single bookBiełaruski chryścijanski ruch (1939) as an example of letterv in Łacinka spelling. But the older spelling variants"Šwajcaryja","Šwajcaryi"/"Szwajcaryi" (genitive/dative/locative) and many examples of the Cyrillic spelling"Швайцарыя" can be easily found on Wikisource, originating from the time period beforew got replaced withv.

In the more modern days, there was Naša Niva web article"Беларусь – Швайцарыя – 1:2" from 2008 in Taraškievica orthography. With an automatically converted Lacinka version of the same article available here:"Biełaruś – Švajcaryja – 1:2". But it isn't a durably archived source and the "automatic conversion" disclaimer is there for a reason (it may and sometimes does fail).

Later Naša Niva switched to the government orthography for the newer articles. Here's one example:"Швейцарыя хоча правесці самую танную Алімпіяду ў гісторыі". This article gets converted into"Šviejcaryja choča pravieści samuju tannuju Alimpijadu ŭ historyi" by the automatic converter. It's interesting that theirconverter can successfully do the "правесці" -> "pravieści" conversion, but fails at "Швейцарыя" and gets "Šviejcaryja" for it. I want to remind @Insaneguy1083, that this still doesn't make the "Šviejcaryja" spelling attestable. The converter is just doing what it can and might be improved one day. --Ssvb (talk)23:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ssvb. I see, so you are agreeing, thanks.

I also pinged you onWiktionary_talk:About_Belarusian#Spelling.

I think it's worth applying a bit stricter rules on Łacinka forms.

We can be flexible in terms of supplying Łacinka alt forms onnon-Taraškievica entries, as long as they areattestable. Also, let's stick to the latest, spelling convention without trying to supply all possible spelling (e.g. "š", not "sz", "v", not "w", etc.), which were used once or twice.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)23:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev: Yes, I noticed your ping and I'll reply a bit later there.

Anyway, I believe that the situation with thesz=š,cz=č,ż=ž,w=v equivalence in Belarusian Łacinka is very similar to the situation withae=ä,oe=ö,ue=ü,ss=ß in German. It doesn't look like people are eager to rush adding all the theoretically possible variants as the alt forms of the German words. Yes, there's theGerman umlautless spellings category, but it only has 13 entries (such as "ueber" vs. "über"). Searching for "koennen" from the Wiktionary main page currently doesn't find anything. But searching for "koennen" in German Wikisource seems to find all conjugation forms of "können".

Also I see some similarities with the handling of the Russianё /е, as it was discussed inWiktionary_talk:About_Russian#Category:Russian_spellings_with_е_instead_of_ё. Could the @Benwing2's proposal be extended to handle the Belarusian sz/cz digraphs and German umlauts in a similar fashion?

Right now searching for "Švajcaryja" from the Wiktionary main page successfully findsШвейцарыя andШвайцарыя entries thanks to the Wiktionary's transliteration of "Швайцарыя" coincidentally matching the real Łacinka spelling. But searching for "Szwajcaryja" doesn't find anything, similar to how it doesn't work for the German "koennen".

Searching for "szkoła" currently finds the Polish "szkoła", but there's no hint that the Belarusian word may have the same spelling (with tons of examples attesting both "szkoła" and "škoła" in Belarusian Wikisource). A soft redirect might be useful, similar to how there's a soft redirect from "елка" to "ёлка". --Ssvb (talk)02:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ssvb, @Benwing2: I don't think adding searches like sz=š, cz=č, ż=ž, w=v is doable with Wiktionary tools but it may be requested in a similar fashion how ё=е, etc. were done but it's outside Wiktionary (I don't remember the exact site name, sorry). Digraphs with single letters may not be easy or even desirable. I wonder how many wrong combinations in may produce for any language.

In my opinion, allowing equivalent searches = yes or maybe (especially single letter equivalences), allowing such respellings - no, let's stick to a more strict spelling.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)03:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev @Ssvb I completely agree. Anatoli, maybe you're thinking of the Phabricator site, where bug reports are filed? In any case, yes, I don't want to have Wiktionary cluttered with lots of soft or hard redirects for systematically-derivable alternative spellings (likekoennen vs.können). It might be possible to implement equivalent searches ourselves using JavaScript; something like this was done, for example, withw vs.wynn (ƿ) in Old English, where typing in the spelling of an Old English term withƿ instead ofw will automatically redirect to the version withw after a few seconds. In any case, I see this as extremely low priority. AFAIK Łacinka is not especially important compared with standard Belarusian or even Taraškievica, and adding a zillion entries for unattested Łacinka terms gives undue weight to Łacinka. It reminds me a bit of the wynn thing in Old English; the only reason we have this redirect tow is that there was a particular user who was obsessed with adding redirects involving wynn spellings (or even wholesale copies of the standard-spelling entry into the wynn-spelling entry). This seriously cluttered the Old English categories and it took a vote to ban such spellings. There is a similar thing with certain hobbyist users who like to add entries for English terms involving obsolete typographical symbols like æ, œ and ſ just because they think it's cool or whatever.Benwing2 (talk)03:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 @Atitarev: Getting correct and easy to maintain Taraškievica support in Wiktionary automatically unlocks Łacinka. The majority of words (around 80% or more) are exactly the same in both the official and Taraškievica orthography. SoTemplate:be-ndecl and the other templates for the other parts of speech just need a parameter, which would allow to select the orthography type ("only official", "only Taraškievica" or "both simultaneously"). This kind of categorization is currently missing. Among the words that are different, the majority are automatically convertible (e.g. getting "сьнег" from "снег" is easy using the code similar toModule:be-pronunciation), leaving only a handful of problematic foreign loanwords to deal with. The words, that are marked as valid Taraškievica, can be automatically converted to Łacinka. The other words can be romanized for illustrative-purposes-only without pretending that this romanization means something.

As for the derivable alternative spellings, maybe an automatic template can do this? Producing searchable keywords and planting them into each dictionary entry. --Ssvb (talk)06:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ssvb AFAIK Taraškievica is not always derivable automatically from standard Belarusian spelling, and I don't have time at this point to implement proper Taraškievica support.Benwing2 (talk)06:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Actually, on this point, how would Łacinka deal with esp. newer English loanwords or specific place names? I know that Polish sometimes borrows words and spells them partially or fully unadapted, likeMalmö (as opposed to*Malme) orZurych (as opposed to*Curych). Does Łacinka have any kind of policy for that? Or do we really end up with*Malmio (Мальмё(Malʹmjó)) andCiurych? Or, well,siorfinh? I assume Łacinka just follows the Cyrillic spelling in this regard.Insaneguy1083 (talk)06:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083: The 1918's edition of Taraškievica prescribed unadapted borrowing. That's where the old spelling variants with unstressed "o" come from. The words "London" ("Лёндон") and "filozofija" ("філёзофія") were given as examples onthis page in the Taraškievič's textbook. The Latin spelling of the foreign words was adopted directly and the Cyrillic spelling was just a standard conversion from Łacinka. But I'm not sure about how the diacritics from "Malmö" were supposed to be converted.

But the 2005's edition of Taraškievica now has rather detailed instructions and prescribes how to convert the borrowed foreign words into Cyrillic. The word "surfing" is evenused as an example. The rule №86 states that either letter "э" or "а" is used for a stressed vowel, that's why it turns into "сэрфінг" ("serfinh"). --Ssvb (talk)07:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2: There's even no necessity to derive Taraškievica automatically from the standard Belarusian spelling for foreign loanwords with tricky pronunciation. There are not too many of such words (likeміф vs.міт orЛондан vs.Лёндан) and the entries for them are created manually anyway. And if you are talking about the romanization of the official Belarusian spelling for such foreign loanwords, then I believe that it's preferable to just have a reasonably phonetically accurate transcription for them via simply applying a generic Cyrillic->Łacinka conversion instead of doing a futile attempt to accurately match the actual preferred/prescribed Taraškievica spelling via some sort of fragile heuristics. They just should not be treated like real words and shouldn't be turned into wiki links in the declension tables.

The coding issue seems to be completely orthogonal and it probably doesn't matter, who implements the code after the consensus is reached. My understanding is that the bulk of this functionality (the automatic Official->Taraškievica->Łacinka conversion) can be isolated in a separate module and I can implement such module myself without touching the existing modules and without any risk of breaking them. --Ssvb (talk)08:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ssvb I have already said I oppose creating soft redirects for Łacinka terms, and AFAIKUser:Atitarev agrees.Benwing2 (talk)09:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 @Atitarev: I think that we all agree about having no need for the obsolete/superseded Łacinka terms (with sz/cz/w). And I'm not thrilled aboutmanually creating soft redirects for the modern Łacinka terms either. At least not until this can be automated by a bot, and we are a long way from even discussing that. By far more urgent issues exist.

My suggestion boils down to eliminating or reducing the need for soft redirects for Łacinka terms via using Łacinka for transliteration in the declension tables. These entries are searchable and this fact alone makes them useful.

As for the soft redirects, we do have them for the Cyrillic Taraškievica terms whenever they differ from the official spelling. I hope that you are not suggesting to ditch these soft redirects. Their creation can be potentially semi-automated for the easy cases (such as "снег"->"сьнег") if the main entry ("снег") is appropriately marked by a human via adding some sort of a flag "convertible to Taraškievica if the soft sign is recovered". But this part is not urgent either.

The most important thing right now is to be able to mark the words like, for example, "пень" as being simultaneously valid for both the official spelling and Taraškievica. Because having this information missing in the newly created entries today means that somebody will need to revisit these entries again in the future when this becomes possible. --Ssvb (talk)10:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

You say the spelling make it obvious how its pronounced. But how do we show the difference betweenši̇̀rdis with acute accent on the initial diphthong andšir̃dis with the circumflex accent? The Wikipedia article says that the difference is falling tone versus 'something different', which I presume would include level and rising tones. It also strongly suggests that the difference is being lost. --RichardW57 (talk)23:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not very knowledgeable on tones in Lithuanian, but I know for a fact thatšìrdį (singular accusative) is pronounced /ˈɕɪrʲdʲiː/, pronounced as such by Monika Liu in the song "Sentimentai". So I just derived the pronunciation ofšìrdis from there.Insaneguy1083 (talk)23:29, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

It would be appreciated if, instead ofstubs, you at least provided a source... Also Slavic langs tend to use + templates.Vininn126 (talk)07:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

If you're copying from Wikipedia, then that's a bad idea and you should probably stop. There tend to be a lot of protologisms and the like and we don't accept it in our CFI.Vininn126 (talk)08:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough, but I feel like most of the stuff I added (kalns,diekou,tēp etc.) are pretty well-established terms in Samogitian. And I would provide sources if there was some sort of established Wiktionary Samogitian reference material - God knows I love adding a "References" or "Further reading" section in my Belarusian, Lithuanian and Yiddish entries - but there isn't. So I'm just going off of the poorly-written earlier Samogitian entries from 2017 and the like, which don't even have declension tables.

On the topic of Samogitian though, thoughts onthis?Insaneguy1083 (talk)09:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am no expert. We'd need someone more knowledgeable.Vininn126 (talk)09:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm sure there are respectable sources on Samogitian out there, grammars and dictionaries even. Just find them and reference those.Thadh (talk)11:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

[1] example.Thadh (talk)11:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! I'll check that out in detail at some point.Insaneguy1083 (talk)11:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Anyways, a cursory look at this glossary suggests thatpapinīčė is definitely attested, whilepapinīks should possibly bepapininks instead. That being said, I've also found words that use both-nīks and-ninks.Insaneguy1083 (talk)11:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Please try to review previous entries before editing a language you are not familiar with, I will have to fix all yours.Auringonlasku (talk)01:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also, if you are getting these usage examples from Google Translate, don't do it again, this is not the best translation method, and you may end up not noticing the errors and creating false information.Auringonlasku (talk)01:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

I got the usage examples from the dictionaries in the Further reading section. Granted I translated the examples with Google Translate, but the examples themselves should be grammatically correct theoretically, even if the English translations perhaps aren't.Insaneguy1083 (talk)02:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Google Translate is not a good resource, I would recommend learning the language instead of using it, Estonian is a complex language just like Finnish, and there is a diversity of words and expressions that Google Translate doesn't understand and doesn't translate correctlyAuringonlasku (talk)03:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Although just out of curiosity, why isn't bor+ used with Estonian? Or is it just a matter of following a set convention? Slavic etymologies often use bor+ and it looks just fine. And also tlb, which is even more confusing since you seem perfectly content to use tlb onFinnishbängeri but notEstonianbänger.

And I'm also confused why you changed the etymology ofkontsert to only be from the German word. Couldn't it have come from German via Russian? I understand why words withü probably come directly from Germany (hencetüümian), butkontsert isn't one of those words.

And finally, why did you change the reference ontšeburekk to EKSS? It literally returns no results when you search it on EKSS. Also, I got thetšeburekid conjugation (with one k instead of two) from Sõnaveeb, so I'm not sure why you added an extra k in there. Unless Sõnaveeb is wrong, which it could be.Insaneguy1083 (talk)02:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Estonian is not Slavic, we do not use this type of template in any Uralic language
• Tlb is only used when all the meanings fit into that category, but as there was only one meaning, there was no use, I didn't change it in Finnish because I forgot
• References highlight the loan inGerman
• I apologize for the inflection of tšeburekk, it was my mistake but it has now been corrected

Auringonlasku (talk)03:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

And one more thing, don't jump from language to language, based on what other editors say about you, you should just focus on what you knowAuringonlasku (talk)03:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Who do I ask if its okay for self coinages to be in namespace?צבוע לבנה (talk)00:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not a Yiddish speaker. I just add a lot of Yiddish entries because those are severely lacking on Wiktionary. You can discuss coinages and namespaces and the like in thetea room. In addition, there already existsCategory:Yiddish coinages. But if you're talking about terms that you personally coined and not coined by, say, some well-known figure within the Yiddish community (seeאָלרײַטניק(olraytnik)), then it's almost certainly not appropriate for inclusion on Wiktionary.

The way I usually ascertain the inclusion criteria is if the term either appears in a dictionary or another sort of explanatory book about Yiddish, then I can include that citation or reference in a "References" section. For instance, I encountered the Western Yiddish wordsהאַרלע(harle) andפֿראַלע(frale) in a book of maps on Yiddish dialectal variation, and those do also come up with hits online, so I added them to Wiktionary. But if you're just coining words, then Wiktionary isn't a free-for-all for you to just add whatever you'd like. I personally have a section on my user page where I document my protologisms, but that's just a for-fun side project.Insaneguy1083 (talk)01:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Will ask there, I’m talking about coinages in general, just nice to see another Yiddish page editor, thanks.צבוע לבנה (talk)01:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083,צבוע לבנה, do either of you happen to know howאויפֿרוף or its English derivativeaufruf is pronounced? Our entry claims the syllables have the same vowel and rhyme, but this seems questionable to me; if it also seems unlikely to you, I'll at least comment the claimed pronunciation out / remove it.- -sche(discuss)19:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

The English pronunciation looks questionable.oyfruf in Yiddish can be either just /ˈɔɪ̯frʊf/ or /ˈa(ː)frʊf/. I know theoyf- suffix is pronouncedaf- in some dialects. As an English speaker, I certainly wouldn't pronounceaufruf with /ʊ-/. Perhaps there was a typo and they meant /aʊ-/?Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

The listed pronunciation with /ʊ/ in both syllables is the only way I've ever heard the word.Hftf (talk)03:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Just curious, are you doing surface analysis original research for many of your Belarusian etymology edits? Some of them look a little bit weird to me, for example:

• thisdiff. The point is thatдзяціна is an oversized youngster, something like a "human broiler".
• or thisdiff, where you addдзеўка to the etymology, which is often used as a vulgar/colloquial word and can be roughly translated into English aswench.

--Ssvb (talk)03:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

There's a good chance those words may have drifted semantically or evolved new meaningsafter the formation of these compound terms. For reference, I copiedдзяціна(dzjacina) fromPolishdzieciństwo, where it's suggested that the word comes fromdziecina +-stwo. It's pretty safe to assume thatдзяціна(dzjacina) is cognate toPolishdziecina, since*дзеціна(*dzjecina) doesn't exist.

Likewise withдзеўка(dzjewka), I got the idea of the compound fromPolishdziewczyna, where it's suggested to bedziewka +‎-yna, with the former being a now-archaic term. Especially withдзяўчы́на(dzjawčýna), it's kind of challenging to explain the-ч-(-č-) in there without having a-к-(-k-) with which the Slavic first palatalization can be performed. SincePolishdziewka is archaic, it's not hard to imagine howдзеўка(dzjewka) could have formerly had a non-vulgar meaning but then evolved to where now only the vulgar meaning persists in colloquial speech. Same goes forдзяціна(dzjacina), which could have lost its non-vulgar meaning of "child".

So no. No original research here. I just look around cognate words to find clues.Insaneguy1083 (talk)03:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi,Your edit was too bold. The noun follows Russian and Ukrainian d-pattern. The genitive plural form isхуі́л(xuíl), notху́йлаў(xújlaw) The mismatch with ru/uk and absence of any Google hits of "хуйлаў" should be a red flag for you. @SsvbAnatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)08:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough. Again, it's not in the dictionaries that I frequent, so I just went with what makes sense. Come to think of it,хуі́л(xuíl) doesn't really make sense intuitively either, but that's just me. Thanks for pointing it out.Insaneguy1083 (talk)09:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would like to really thank you for your edits in Lithuanian, they are very good compared to those of other editors who have been messing with the language for years :)Anatolijs LTV (talk)12:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Vilniuje gyvenau 5 mėnesius, dar nekalbu lietuviškai, bet maniau kad turėjau kažką daryti Vikižodyne už Lietuvą, už lietuvių visame pasauly :)

Arī biju Rīgā, un man šķiet ka Rīga ir skaista pilsēta. Nopirku grāmatnīcā grāmatu lībiešu valodā (ar tulkojumiem latviešu)!

But in all seriousness, thank you very much, I try my best :) I haven't even really grasped the stress patterns myself yet, but at least I know that they exist. Cheers from Hong Kong via Glasgow!Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Cheers from Riga!Anatolijs LTV (talk)13:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Please stop making stubs in so many languages. It's better to use the requested entries pages.Vininn126 (talk)09:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

And also you aren't even checking sources, you seem to be blindly checking Wikipedia, which is rife with protologisms. I'm now concerned about your other edits.Vininn126 (talk)09:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

And thing is, you already said you would stop doing this last time I yelled at you for this. I haven't seen much improvement.Vininn126 (talk)12:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've only done the Wikipedia thing for Tajleczka and earlier Samogitian entries, which fair enough, I should've verified. Last night I was just in a frenzy looking up words that might be calques ofLatinparticula, without thinking that something might be a Wikipedia neologism. There was one Silesian dictionary that includedtajla in example sentences and such, but I think the dictionary just stopped right before getting to the letter T. Most other stubs that I've made, I've probably at least seen in real life, likeBavarianGlaserl which I saw in several ads and such while I was in Vienna, as well asLithuanianpasiflora which I saw in cafes in Vilnius. And the Cantonese stubs, I made them because I speak Cantonese natively, and several people I know in real life can attest the usages.

I use (and have used) sources for Belarusian, Crimean Tatar, Estonian, Ingush, Italian, Karelian, Kumyk, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macanese, Northern Mansi, Samogitian (now), and Yiddish. Someone later also supplied a source for my Carpathian Rusyn stub, same with my two Mariupol Greek stubs. Azerbaijani entries tend to not usually even have sources, but the entries I made are pretty well-established sorta Pan-ex-Soviet words, so I'm not too concerned about those. Same with the various "baryer"s that I made in various ex-Soviet Turkic languages.Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's the other thing - making stubs generally isn't as helpful, and bouncing between languages so much usually means you can't take the time to make a basic one, usually making it harder for people to clean up after you. I've seen Belarusian editors complain there there are too many to clean up that it's hard to keep up.Vininn126 (talk)12:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

With Belarusian in particular though, the issue is with formatting. The entries aren't stubs themselves; they're well-sourced, and I just use the same two sources that everyone else on Belarusian Wiktionary uses.Insaneguy1083 (talk)12:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Well, I've seen a general preference for Belarusian formatting from the most frequent Belarusian editors. One should try to follow formatting consensus for a given language.Vininn126 (talk)12:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Something I've been saying for days (уздых...)Наименее Полезное (talk)14:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

For the love of God, don't edit languages you don't know! The pronunciation, etymology and other details are completely inaccurate, stop jumping from language to language!Auringonlasku (talk)23:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Pronunciation does seem off (especially the "ss" bit), but etymology? They didn't provide one in the referenced dictionaries, and I've compared enough languages to be relatively confident in my conjecture. Unless you mean the formatting, then that's fair enough.

This is my last one though, I promise.Insaneguy1083 (talk)23:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

You added inaccurate information without any references, the pronunciation was wrong and you have been warned by several editors, I don't want problems involving my languageAuringonlasku (talk)23:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Auringonlasku, no need to be combative. The page was fine, if a bit incomplete, and his pronunciation was correct and yours isn't. In fact, you often add incorrect pronunciations yourself.Joonas07 (talk)02:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 I think it's nice that you're interested in Estonian! If you decide to keep editing Estonian, you should consider using dictionaries provided onhttps://kn.eki.ee/ instead of Sõnaveeb. I use it for some terms that are not in any other dictionaries and it's good to check if a word exists or not (or how it is spelled) but I wouldn't base entries entirely off Sõnaveeb.Joonas07 (talk)02:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I have removed the usage note you wrote at錢 because it is highly inaccurate to say the cin4/cin2 distinction is restricted to Hong Kong and Macau (and their recent diaspora). It's also inaccurate to say cin4 is only restricted to the fixed phrase 金錢, since there are plenty of other 詞 where cin4 is used, like錢罌,錢幣,錢財, etc. Do you have any particular Guangdong dialects you have in mind that do not have a cin4/cin2 distinction, and do you have any supporting evidence for your claim? Sources like 廣州方言詞典 and 汉语方言词汇 record for Guangzhou the same distinction made in Hong Kong essentially. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }}04:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I was just basing it off of personal experience honestly, from watching videos where non-HK/Macau Cantonese speakers were saying 錢, as well as my travels to Malaysia where there's a prominent Cantonese-speaking diaspora. And yes, now that you mention it, you're right, there are multiple compound words that also use cin4. It just didn't come to my mind at the time of writing. I think the distinction's definitely more widespread than I was thinking at first, but in personal experience it is certainly not universal, and on multiple occasions I have found video clips of non-HK/Macau speakers pronouncing 錢 as cin4 in situations where us Hongkongers would say cin2. I don't know if there's statistics anywhere depicting the distinction (or lack thereof) by geographical region, but I vividly remember the old man running the fish ball noodle stand in Kuala Lumpur not making that distinction and always pronouncing 錢 as cin4. I don't know the degree to which it's an age thing, since old people in HK use cin2 as well.

If the same distinction is made elsewhere in Cantonese-speaking regions and there's sources like dictionaries to back it up, then excellent; I was, frankly, wondering why cin2 didn't appear as one of the alternate pronunciations in the Cantonese section. Still, I think it's good to point out the distinction in a usage note, especially since that distinction isn't present in Mandarin; but I imagine that with proper referencing and such, you'd be able to word the note better than I can. Thanks for the heads up about the additional points of distinction.Insaneguy1083 (talk)05:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

The pronunciation is wrong and the etymology too, Sõnaveeb often has inaccurate etymologies, don't you think being complained about in every language community you edit is not enough?Auringonlasku (talk)11:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't think any source other than German would result inhüään as opposed to*hiään, seeing as only German (of the regular Estonian contact languages) pronounces "y" as /y/. Same logic applies totüümian, from GermanThymian as opposed to Russianтимьян(timʹjan). Is the etymology incomplete? Maybe, but several other Estonian entries also just stop at one etymon, so I'm just following precedent. Maybe it was borrowed from Russian and then influenced by German for the-ü-, but you could also make that case fortüümian and others. As for pronunciation, given what Joonas07 wrote a while back, I have no comment.Insaneguy1083 (talk)11:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

If you want to do something stupid in Belarusian, do it according to the standard, don't mess up something you won't fix:

((col-auto|be|title=|term)) (It IS necessary to put the gender + animacy and say whether the verb is perfective or imperfective)

"Łacinka" must be written in CAPITAL LETTERSНаименее Полезное (talk)12:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The whole point here is moot, kuchnia is attested since Old Polish, so both Polish and Silesian inherited it from there, so Middle German makes more sense. It's worth it to check if an etymon exists in Old Polish for this reason.Vininn126 (talk)19:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's fair enough. The fact remains thatchuhhina isn't Middle High German, and that was the main thing I wanted to rectify. Whether it actually came via Czech or entered Old Polish in parallel with (Old?) Czech, I'm not so certain, and I suppose it doesn't matter as much. What I wonder about though, is if an additional-nia suffix was appended in Old Polish first, or if it was just a natural conversion between MHG and Old Polish that happened to result in the word ending in-nia. Because I feel like if an Old Polish entry were to be created for this, that suffix should probably be mentioned as well.Insaneguy1083 (talk)20:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The spelling should be checked. I wouldn't be surprised if the etymon exists in Old High German, but is spelled a particular way than how the sources gave it. It's fairly likely that it came from Germanic, as well. The etymon needs a touch up. It might be safer to just list Polish and Silesian as from Old Polish, and I can try to add the Old Polish etymon tomorrow.Vininn126 (talk)20:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also there's no need to mark animacy of non-masculine nouns. Animacy is only important in masculine nouns.Vininn126 (talk)21:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Alright, noted. Good to know.Insaneguy1083 (talk)21:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

You jump a lot between L2's. You are open to criticism, but the problem is deeper than that. You don't take the time to learn the ins and outs of editing a specific language. For exampleтераз - the rhyme is from the stressed syllable to the end. The fact you didn't check how rhymes work but added a lot shows you didn't take the time to learn what you need to edit this language. You either need to slow down and show more care or not.Vininn126 (talk)19:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Passing by here to add: Not even knowing how to form a sentence in the language you are editing is very problematic, there are dozens of wrong Belarusian sentences that you got from Google Translate, wrong labels like "possibly obsolete".Наименее Полезное (talk)19:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Dozens? Not trying to be aggressive here, but I really can't remember more than maybe one or two where I actually used Google Translate. In many cases, I get the usage examples from Skarnik or Slounik. I'm happy to fix those, if you could point them out. Again, genuinely asking here, not trying to be combative.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

You take them from dictionaries and translate them through Google, you confirmed this yourself to that Estonian editor @AuringonlaskuНаименее Полезное (talk)19:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I was asking about Belarusian though, not Estonian. I did use Google Translate on Estonian, I can admit that. Unless you mean the English translation for a Belarusian sentence is incorrect, but even then I'm not sure I ever added that many sentences on the Belarusian entries that I had made. I'm not good with quotations - that's for Ssvb to deal with mostly - so I tend to steer away from those.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't even need to do this, just look in your log of created pagesНаименее Полезное (talk)19:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Alright kiddos, fight's over.Vininn126 (talk)19:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

прабач, майстар, я перашчыраваў 😔Наименее Полезное (talk)19:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Quotations are tricky, because it's preferable to have native or near native language skills in both languages. And I don't have perfect confidence in my English. That's why I'm using a lot of quotations from the Belarusian translations of the original English books, but that's also not ideal for many reasons. A few days ago I started to experiment with ChatGPT and Google's Gemini to "grammar check" my own English translations, but I'm not sure if these services can be trusted for this task. --Ssvb (talk)09:32, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

You're right, I do need to slow down. My entry-making gets a bit impulsive at times. Even on the entries where I did get the rhyming syllable correct, I got the quality of the vowel wrong. Rhyming is definitely not my strong suit in pronunciations.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I know you are editing in good faith. Good faith doesn't mean anything if you leave mistakes everywhere. You've been warned on so many occasions. Take this to heart or face the consequences. I say this as friendly as I can.Vininn126 (talk)19:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

On this note for Pannonian Rusyn you should be checking if Old Slovak forms exist.Vininn126 (talk)20:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

More correction: are you aware of the different between hyphenation and syllabficiation? You hyphenation toтея but I doubt you know where Pannonian Rusyn would break words at the end of the line in text. This is exactly the kind of sloppiness everyone is on you about.Vininn126 (talk)14:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello Insaneguy! How are you? I hope you are well, anyway, I would like to ask you to be more careful when adding unsourced forms in smaller languages, if you can't find it in dictionaries, then look in quotes; have a good dayStríðsdrengur (talk)19:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

-овац class nouns all have the same conjugation pattern, so I'm just copy and pasting those. And it's all attested - I'm often checkingRuske Slovo, a massive database of Pannonian Rusyn writings (which I've referenced inчи(či)), and the entries I've made are all attested either there or just somewhere on the internet. Plus, the 2010 dictionary (which is unfortunately inaccessible at the minute because archive.org is down) that I usually check includes all of the 1st person singular conjugations, and I'm following those. Plus, outside of the -овац words, I'm just adding the most common verb forms that I encounter on Ruske Slovo. Might add more later, but this is just what I'm doing at the moment out of boredom because archive.org is down. Thanks for the advice regardless.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think the issue is more just making sure quotes are at least included.Vininn126 (talk)19:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Surely you don't mean a quote forevery single verb form entry? I don't think that's policy anywhere. As for the verb forms where I haven't made the base infinitive form, I'm gonna get to those as soon as archive.org is back.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's nice to have at least one source to passWT:CFI forWT:LDLs, so either a dictionary or a quote.Vininn126 (talk)19:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Does it suffice if I have a dictionary source for the infinitive, where that dictionary also lists the first-person singular form? Because that's what I've got on the 2010 dictionary.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

As perWT:LDL, one mention in "verified" and "trusted" dictionaries is fine, but like I said, leaving at least a reference template or something to it is ideal.Vininn126 (talk)19:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello,

Why is хаснователь Pannonian Rusyn (rsk), not Carpathian Rusyn (rue)? Where did you get this from?

Both references you added to the entry don't open ATM.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)07:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

It might be Carpathian Rusyn as well, I don't know; butхаснователь(xasnovatelʹ) is absolutely used in Pannonian Rusyn, to the point where it's even found in the Babel language fluency boxes - I've listed rsk-1 on my profile, you can check it out there. In addition, if you searchхаснователь(xasnovatelʹ) or any of its inflected forms on Ruske Slovo (the biggest online collection of blogs, articles etc. in Pannonian Rusyn), then you'll find plenty of results, as seenhere andhere. So it might be used in Carpathian as well, but I'm primarily focussed on Pannonian.

The references don't open because archive.org is down, but they're both dictionaries that clearly state the existence of the word and a translation into either Serbian or English. What happens to archive.org is beyond my control.Insaneguy1083 (talk)08:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the reply and the explanation.Anatoli T.^{(обсудить}/^вклад)08:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi,{{rsk-decl-noun-n}}'s locative singular doesn't work properly and table should not be used. I couldn't figure out how to make it work.Sławobóg (talk)20:39, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'll be honest, I don't know the template either. Usually what I do these days is generate most of the forms using the template, copy them into rsk-decl-noun-table, and then fill in the locative by myself (generally just root +-у(-u)). @Thadh made the template, and I'm not sure what they were trying to achieve with the locative singular? I don't know of any neuter nouns that have a clipped stem.Insaneguy1083 (talk)03:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I made both fem and neuter templates almost year ago. There was some rule but I don't get it.Here it is. If you can read it better than I you can explain it to me or made change yourself. We could also have automatic table with parameter for locative, kinda like we have for HSB.Sławobóg (talk)10:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think there's really much of a rule, neither from that screenshot nor from the 1997 Serbian dictionary that I usually reference for grammar, just that some nouns have the -e ending. No real hard and fast rules surrounding this. I feel like you could just add a parameter called "locsg" or something, where "locsg=e" means the noun uses an -e ending (taking into account -to => -ce, -do => -dze, -no => -ně, -lo => -lě), and "locsg=eu" means that the noun can use either an -e or -u ending, likeместо(mesto). Defaults to -u ending if the param isn't mentioned.

The same rule (that there are no rules) also goes for masculine nouns, if you ever decide to make rsk-decl-noun-m (I imagine you'd have to specify inan/anim/pers for each noun though, and also handle irregular stuff likeбифе(bife) orрадио(radio)). Sometimes I have to Google the usage to see if an -e form exists.Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

There also seems to be a misinterpretation of neuter words ending in-це(-ce) (descending from Old Slovak-tie), such asобисце(obisce), being read incorrectly as an animate noun. I've had to manually input that one as well. Looking at the 1997 Serbian dictionary, it suggests that only neuter nouns ending in-че(-če) and a few others likeщенє(ščenje) have that-ец-(-ec-) infixation, so-це(-ce) should probably be ignored in that case. Maybe some sort of parameter could be specified for animate neuter nouns.Insaneguy1083 (talk)13:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I updated{{rsk-decl-noun-n}}, check for potential errors.Sławobóg (talk)16:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I mean, you've got a few issues on the example page alone.местце(mestce) should beмесце(mesce); andщеята(ščejata) (in the nominative plural) should beщенята(ščenjata), although that might just be a typo. Also I think "locs" can be optional; I meant that if the parameter is not mentioned at all, then it gives "-u" by default. Only specify locs=e or locs=eu if necessary for that noun.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Both issues are fixed. And locs parameter is optional and it works as you wanted.Sławobóg (talk)17:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry if this is asking too much, but is it possible for it to automatically detect the-ство(-stvo) ending and automatically give it locs=e? On the topic of-ство(-stvo) nouns, and this also applies to rsk-noun-decl-f, it would be good to have singulare tantum and pluralia tantum parameters as well, since of course a lot of-ство(-stvo) nouns are singular-only.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also I read in the 1997 dictionary that both-ами(-ami) and-ми(-mi) are possible instrumental plural endings, with the example beingкольче(kolʹče) =>кольчатми(kolʹčatmi) /кольчатами(kolʹčatami), although-ми(-mi) is the more common one for these "baby nouns" (which we can treat as the default). Maybe add some sort of parameter to allow for the-ами(-ami) ending as well.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I can make -stvo and tantums in a minute, I broke drevo by fixing mesto. Is it stated whenever -ami is alternative form that exists always? If so, we can have it always on.Sławobóg (talk)17:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Here is the exact quote in Serbian:

Ове именице у инстр. мн. наjчешће имаjу наставак -ми, али могу имати и -ами/-ями или оба наставка: щенятми, мачатми, кольчатми/кольчатами.

These nouns (-ец- class neuter nouns) in instr. pl. usually have the suffix -ми, but they can also have -ами/-ями or both suffixes: щенятми, мачатми, кольчатми/кольчатами.

So, I don't know. I imagine it's easier to code for it always on, but seems that that's not necessarily always true.

You also seem to have brokenгумно(humno). The locative singular should beгумнє(humnje) after I specify locs=e.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think mesto~drevo~gumno should be ok now. But if -ami is not always there (which would be weird for an ending), does dictionary mention whenever it's there? How do we know when it's there?Sławobóg (talk)17:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think just deal with it like locs - default to -mi, add a parameter for either just 1) -ami or 2) both -mi and -ami.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

But how do you know when to use it?Sławobóg (talk)17:37, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

According to this 1997 Serbian dictionary, you don't. Maybe it's written down somewhere in a Rusyn grammar book that I can't afford to get shipped to me. Bottom line, the default ending for these -ec- and -at- nouns is -mi, but -ami and -jami could exist for some such nouns as well. Either way, don't worry about this for now, honestly. I don't know of any examples of this outside ofкольчатами(kolʹčatami) which they gave.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:41, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also new thing to fix - neuter nouns ending in-є(-je), but NOT following palatalizable consonants. In Pannonian Rusyn, the soft signь(ʹ) only follows-д-(-d-),-т-(-t-),-н-(-n-) or-л-(-l-). For the rest,-й-(-j-) should be used for "palatalization". So the genitive plural ofпобрежє(pobrežje) isпобрежйох(pobrežjox) rather than*побрежьох(*pobrežʹox). Same principle asморйо(morjo) really.
Edit:жридло(žridlo) should giveжридлє(žridlje) for locs=e, not*жридле(*žridle).
Edit 2:чоло(čolo) should giveчолє(čolje) for locs=e.*лье(*lʹe) doesn't exist.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Fixed.Sławobóg (talk)18:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Oops, you forgot to fix the instrumental singular forпобрежє(pobrežje).Insaneguy1083 (talk)18:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Done.Sławobóg (talk)18:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Let me know when you get around to -stvo (and -ctvo and a few other variants likeдружтво(družtvo)) and singulare/pluralia tantum, but no rush, no pressure.

And could you also fix rsk-decl-noun-f to accommodate for nouns ending in-ия(-ija) or-їя(-jija)? Thanks in advance. You can refer toпростория(prostorija) for how the endings are supposed to look. And likeморйо(morjo), an automatic version forзаря(zarja) and other nouns that end in hard consonant +-я(-ja) would be cool as well.Insaneguy1083 (talk)18:55, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Could list all -stvo variants? For feminine, could you tell me which consonants excatly use this declensions? Also I would need all declension types for masculine, since book is not having everything I guess. Is animacy only about accusative?Sławobóg (talk)15:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

For -stvo, I did a quick search through the 2010 dictionary. There exist-ство, -цтво, -жтво, -зтво, -штво(-stvo, -ctvo, -žtvo, -ztvo, -štvo), but only one of each were found for the latter three (in Pannonian Rusyn at least;-штво /-štvo seems quite common in Serbo-Croatian).

For feminine nouns, basically, like I mentioned withпобрежє(pobrežje), the soft signь(ʹ) only follows D, L, N, and T. Forall other consonants +-я(-ja), likeзаря(zarja),-й-(-j-) is used instead, soзарйох(zarjox) instead of*зарьох(*zarʹox). But for the-ня(-nja) ending for example, you get-ньох(-nʹox) rather than-нйох(-njox) in the plural genitive.

Masculine declension is complicated. I'm barely able to do it manually right now. My biggest issue is determining whether a noun has singular genitive in -a or -u, and determining whether an -e form exists in the singular locative. If a noun is too obscure, I can't even look up the inflected forms. I'd say just leave it be for the time being.Insaneguy1083 (talk)15:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

According to grammar book:

• -a/-ja is used for 1. living beings, 2. objects, 3. units of measure, 4. terms of foreign origin (both -а and -у are possible in the spoken language)
• -u/-ju is used for 1. materials, 2. abstracts, 3. areal nouns
• others use both

.Sławobóg (talk)16:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I started{{rsk-decl-noun-m}}.Sławobóg (talk)22:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Well, good luck with that. I might also suggest example tests for

• Names/surnames/random nouns ending in -o (e.g.тато(tato),Янко(Janko))
• Names and surnames ending in -i or -ji (e.g.Силадї(Siladji))
• Reducible-stem nouns (e.g.палєц(paljec),квиток(kvitok),хрибет(xribet))
• Optionally reducible-stem nouns (e.g.километер(kilometer))
• Reducible-stem nouns where you probably need to specify the exact reduced root (e.g.тидзень(tidzenʹ),цеснок(cesnok),оцец(ocec))
• Hungarian words with intrusive -k- in oblique forms (e.g.бачи(bači),Дюри(Djuri))
• Nouns ending in -i that change into -ij in oblique forms because Serbo-Croatian (e.g.Мали(Mali), genitiveМалия(Malija))

Then we have the -e vocative ending for some words likeчловек(človek),пан(pan) andПетро(Petro).

And then there's also the plural forms. Expected is -i, but you have

• -ove sometimes (e.g.тато(tato),бачи(bači),Дїтко(Djitko))
• some -ak nouns become -aci in plural (e.g.гудак(hudak))
• and some suffixes/endings take -e: -(j)ar, -(j)ač, -aš, -oš, -tel', -(j)an('), -or, -er, -ir, and also just some random nouns for no reason, likeюгас(juhas).

So I would suggest here a "nompl" or whatever you want to call the nominative plural param, which AFAIK also applies to the vocative plural in all cases.

And like with the baby neuter nouns, there's also a handful of -mi instrumental plurals rather than -ami, likeпенєж(penjež) andдзвери(dzveri).

Don't worry aboutрадио(radio), I don't think there's another noun like it in declension. Table is fine for that one, although could be nice to add singulare tantum for the table template as well.

Like I said, it's a lot. Good luck.Insaneguy1083 (talk)23:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think feminine is working.Sławobóg (talk)18:21, 26 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

I made{{rsk-decl-adj}}.Sławobóg (talk)15:43, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Looking at the edit history of a template is not that hard. I was never on board creating the individual templates, as I thought keeping the general{{rsk-decl-noun-table}} would be best until we get a module.Thadh (talk)20:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Probably good to start a separate thread for this. Anyways, @Sławobóg, I didn't expect to see this on a random Monday evening, but it's definitely greatly appreciated. I feel like we could merge "personal/animal" into just animate. Also, does the plural operate on virile vs non-virile? I had always operated on the assumption that it was the same thing, animate vs inanimate. Problem is, the 1997 dictionary that I have doesn't really go into the scenarios where you use the nominative or the genitive as the accusative form. Also, this might be a bit weird, but I reckon we can swap the places of neuter and feminine singular, since neuter shares a lot of oblique forms with masculine singular. We could then merge some of the boxes.

As to the -ov/-ovi paradigm with regards to the plural form, my 1997 dictionary says this:

For now, I would say add a parameter that removes the -i form in plural nominative/vocative, for things like macerin and školjarov. Otherwise it feels too complicated for me to discern whether to use -o or -i.

One final thing for now: reduced forms. There'sрад(rad) which only has the nominative forms (and alsoрадей(radej) in genitive singular forone fixed phrase), as well asгодзен(hodzen) whose root isгодн-(hodn-) in oblique forms, and the plural isгодни(hodni). There also existsдлужен(dlužen). Andєден(jeden) and its derivatives of course. Also,шицок(šicok), withшицк-(šick-) in oblique forms, sorta similar toPolishwszystek.

You can also do a pronoun template based off of this, forмой(moj),твой(tvoj) etc.. Just remember that the plural nominative isмойо(mojo) and not*мої(*moji);нашо(našo) and not*наши(*naši). Also, the demonstrative pronouns as well:тот(tot),гевтот(hevtot) andтамтот(tamtot).

Otherwise, great work. I can start adding these to actual adjective entries now.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:45, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

цикави(cikavi) shouldn't haveцикаво(cikavo) as a neuter form, onlyцикаве(cikave). Same issue stands withщешлїви(ščešljivi) as well. Maybe have a parameter for neuter nominative, where the default is -e, but you could have settings for -o or both -e and -o.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:56, 27 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sławobóg tagging you again in this, in case you missed it. The -in type possessive adjectives aren't working yet.Insaneguy1083 (talk)19:39, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 Sorry, I forgot, it should be working now, I added parameterrel for -ov(i) and -n relative adjectives.Sławobóg (talk)21:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, but I think the plural nominative might be -ino rather than -ini. I found an entryженїно pl(ženjino) in the 2010 dictionary.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sławobóg I checked the 1997 dictionary. I think for possessive -ov and -in adjectives, the ONLY plural nominative ending is -o, so -ovo and -ino.

Quote: Присвоjни придеви на -ов и -ин у средњем роду и у множини имаjу наставак -о:школяров „учениковˮ,школярова,школярово, мн.школярово;мацерин „маjчинˮ,мацерина,мацерино, мн.мацерино.

So there doesn't exist*мацерини(*macerini) for the nominative plural, nor*мацерине(*macerine) for the singular neuter nominative. Hope you can fix that soon.Insaneguy1083 (talk)17:41, 17 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sławobóg coming back to this to remind you to fix -ov and especially -in. Also, I think it would be good to add some parameter for the neuter nominative of -ov or -ovi class adjectives, since it honestly seems to depend on the specific case whether the neuter is -ovo or -ove or both. Searching in the 2010 dictionary:

• There are -ov adjectives in -ove only
• There are -ov adjectives in -ovo only
• There are -ov adjectives in -ovo / -ove
• There are -ovi adjectives in -ove only
• There are -ovi adjectives in -ovo only
• There are -ovi adjectives in -ovo / -ove
• There are -ov(i) adjectives in -ove only
• There are -ov(i) adjectives in -ovo only
• There are -ov(i) adjectives in -ovo / -ove

It's a bit less clear with the plural nominative, but at least I can follow the dictionary on what the neuter form is supposed to be like using this parameter. Something like "n=o", "n=e" and "n=oe". Thanks.

Also -ovo needs to be added for the nominative plural, even without rel=1. I've found that colour adjectives likeґестиньови(gestinʹovi) have -ove (but not -ovo) in neuter and -ovo / -ovi in the plural, although -ovo is more common.Insaneguy1083 (talk)16:26, 28 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I have a lot of stuff going on. I'll look into this ASAP.Sławobóg (talk)18:11, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083 I finished other stuff, I'll look into it today.Sławobóg (talk)16:01, 3 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

So does that mean that every -ov, -ovi, -in adjective on top of having plural -ovi/neuter -ove can have colloqial -ovo and/or -ove?Sławobóg (talk)20:23, 3 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sławobóg -in adjectivesonly have plural -ino, andpossessive -ov adjectives (e.g.оцов(ocov))only have plural -ovo. -ovo is often the standard plural form for -ov(i), regardless of whether rel=1 or not. I think it would be good to add a parameter to specify the neuter form, being -ovo, -ove, or both. Likewise, a parameter to specify -ovo, -ovi or both in the plural could be good as well. It's not really a matter of colloquial or not. Ultimately, I'm not really sure whether there actually exists a rule for this kind of thing, other than for possessive adjectives.Insaneguy1083 (talk)20:34, 3 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Something is not right, -ovi adjectives can have bookish plural -ovi. Can -in adjectives have -e in neuter?Sławobóg (talk)19:43, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's good now?Sławobóg (talk)20:19, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

No, -in adjectives go -in, -ina, -ino and -ino. As mentioned earlier in this conversation withмацерин(macerin).Insaneguy1083 (talk)22:51, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's what it is now.Sławobóg (talk)07:47, 6 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Can you respond tothis post that I made on your talk page?Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:23, 6 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Actually, one more small thing: can you make it so the adjectives that end in -vi but not -ovi are auto-filled with neuter in -e? Adjectives likeбелави(belavi) orганьблїви(hanʹbljivi) don't have neuter -o forms. Also, FYI, I changedeo tooe, because that's how it's listed in the dictionary, and generally -ovo does seem to be more common than -ove.Insaneguy1083 (talk)20:53, 6 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sławobóg hello, see above.Insaneguy1083 (talk)22:05, 9 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's done, check for errors.Sławobóg (talk)14:58, 10 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

What about the term "Judea" in the Pannonian Rusyn and Carpathian Rusyn languages?

Thanks for hearing me out. --Apisite (talk)22:26, 21 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Pannonian by and large takes after Serbo-Croatian for place names, and it'sJudeja in Serbo-Croatian, so it'sЮдея(Judeja) in Pannonian. A quick search on the Carpathian dictionary reveals that Carpathian usesЮдея(Judeja) as well. Sorry if you were hoping for a more exciting answer. But right now Judea's not my focus in terms of entries to be added.Insaneguy1083 (talk)22:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, however long it may take to add at least the Pannonian Rusyn entry. --Apisite (talk)22:34, 21 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Your list of protologisms includes "populate", but the exact sense in which you're using "populate" is already quite old and well-known.TooManyFingers (talk)04:56, 8 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

That's fair enough. I assumed that the dictionary-writing community would have used some other verb for it, but I'm not super connected with said community in general. I'll probably keep using the word though.Insaneguy1083 (talk)06:27, 8 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

In the Pannonian Rusyn entry, isn't there supposed to be the term "тайфунов" as one of the noun-forms?

Thanks for reading. --Apisite (talk)06:03, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Nope, not at all. Pannonian Rusyn very famously(?) has merged the genitive plural and locative plural, so that for the vast majority of nouns, both of those declined forms end in-ох(-ox), and that is also why nouns ending in-ка(-ka) don't have-ок(-ok) for their genitive plural. Some feminine and neuter nouns retain a limited null ending for the genitive plural, such asоко(oko) andгодзина(hodzina), but even those are only used in limited situations. There's also the place nameПиньвиц(Pinʹvic) which I speculate might have come from a historical genitive plural ofпиньвица(pinʹvica), but that's just speculation.

Ironically, the only noun to have a declined form end in-ов(-ov) is a feminine noun, whereдрага(draha,“path; street; road”) has an associated fixed phraseисц свойов драгов(isc svojov drahov,“to go one's own way”), but*драгов(*drahov) isn't used anywhere else, and also I don't think it's considered a plural declined form either.

If there were to existтайфунов(tajfunov) in Pannonian Rusyn, it would be a relational or possessive adjective (see-ов(-ov)), so something meaning like "the typhoon's" or "typhoons's". Which, well, Rusyns aren't exactly writing about typhoons every day, so I doubt it's attested anywhere. But that's just a hypothetical based on what we know of the-ов(-ov) suffix.Insaneguy1083 (talk)08:42, 11 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks again for the prancūzas explanation. What was it like studying Lithuanian in Lithuania? That would be a dream for me!DenisHowe (talk)10:48, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I was able to understand concepts in Lithuanian more easily due to my knowledge of Slavic languages. Lithuanian isn't Slavic, of course, but they share a lot of the case declension and such things, even if much of the basic vocabulary is really quite different. I once heard Lithuanian described from the perspective of a Ukrainian speaker as "sounds like a Slavic language but you have no idea what they're saying". To be clear, I didn't specifically go to Vilnius to study Lithuanian, but I thought I might as well do it if I was gonna live there for 5 months for my exchange semester. A year on and I don't remember much from it, even though I absolutely aced the exam and was top of the class, but I do still know some of the very basic vocabulary and grammar. For a while I was one of the more prolific Lithuanian contributors on here, but seems that people more dedicated than I am have taken up that spot in my lieu.

Vilnius is really nice though, despite the very conspicuous lack of non-bus public transport and heavily car-centric infrastructure outside of the immediate city centre. You get a lot of the Western European modernities, but for the most part at an Eastern European price which is really nice. People also aren't too bothered about other folk being visibly non-European, like myself. I'd highly recommend visiting Vilnius and/or Riga, for much of the same reasons. Tallinn felt a bit different to me, but then again I was only there for a few days.Insaneguy1083 (talk)10:58, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Insaneguy1083, hi. I've addedUkrainian-шка(-ška). Possibly, you might want to reconsider ety ofPannonian Rusynзамешка(zameška), compare toUkrainianза́мішка(zámiška,Etymology 1). Thanks for attention.91.122.21.17910:26, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

But why would it beзаміша́ти(zamišáty) +‎-шка(-ška) as opposed toзаміша́ти(zamišáty) +‎-ка(-ka)?Insaneguy1083 (talk)11:08, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply