This is a problem we have to face repeatedly with the ancient Greeks and the Punics for example because they only had one name, no family name and these names tended to be repeatedly used or were taken from some kind of deity. I suggest some clear rules for disambiguation.
nicknames in case they exist. for example Hannibal the Bald, Hasdrubal the Fair - OK
profession in case this made him relevant and there is no chance of someone else with the same name and profession. for example Polybius the historian - OK, Hannibal the general - not OK, there more than three of them
Dynastic names (can be disputed and is not clear because this habit was not in use in ancient times- leading to our problem). See Hamilcar Barca, Hannibal Barca, Hasdrubal Barca, Mago Barca they all were family members and there side is commonly called the Barcids. On the other hand Hasdrubal the Fair's son and Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago's nephew Hanno was equally treated by them, although he is not refered to as a "Barca", but he is a member of Hamilcar's family and a Barcid.
Place of origin or ethnic group is a common disambiguation used by ancient sources. for example Lysimachus the Celt
dates, preferably the lifespan, but the time someone held an important office could be used alternatively.
I recall that there were some interesting naming conventions adopted for the ancient Romans that might be useful here; but I can't remember where they are. :-\Kirill Lokshin17:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, now I would appreciate some input. For example we have two Punic Hannibal of equal rank, one in the First the other in the Second Punic War and both of them played a very important role. The one from the Second Punic War is more widely known, but can we establish fame as a criteria?Wandalstouring20:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been thinking about some rules for all these Greeks, Punics and the like.
If we they have any additional names [Soter], a universally accepted ranking [I, II, III, ...] or epithets [Barca, the Bald, the Fair, from Naxos, the Celt, the Samnite, of Sparta, from Alexandria] that make them unique these are to be used. [For exmaplePtolemy andPtolemy I Soter andPtolemy II Philadelphus orHamilcar andHamilcar Barca]
If such a disambiguation is not possible the next step can be to use in parentheses behind the name the modern name for the dynasty[Mago (Magonid)] this also applies to non-royal families like the Barcids ord Gisco [Sophonosbe (Gisco) or Hamilcar (Gisco) or Hasdrubal (Gisco)] and may be extended to relatives of such a house if they were closely involved in the dynastic policy [Hanno (Barcid) or Bomilcar (Barcid)]. In the very rare case there are more bearers of the same name within a dynasty, but they are not contemporaries and there is no established ranking, it is possible to disambiguate them [as Mago (I Magonid) the later as Mago (II Magonid)].
The next step is looking at the biography. The lifespan can be used [Bostar (200 BC - 140 BC)] or in case the lifespan is not known, what is often the case for Punic nobles, the known office and the time it was held can be used [Hanno (Rab 210 BC - 190 BC) or Hanno (strategus 200 BC) or Hanno (Punic naval commander ~200/201 BC)].
In case these rules can not be applied, the profession, the homecountry [Hanno (trader from Carthage)], the husband [Sophonosbe (wife of the Numidian king Syphax)] or an important close realtive [Julius (illegal son of Hannibal (Barcid))] can be listed. Naturally the disambiguation has to be used in case the name itself wouldn't be clear.Wandalstouring23:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Copyedited draft, per request:
Where a single name is shared by multiple individuals, one of four options (given in order of priority) may be used to disambiguate them:
If the individuals have commonly-accepted additional names, epiphets, or numerical designations, these should be added directly to the name. For example,Ptolemy I Soter,Ptolemy II Philadelphus orHamilcar Barca.
If the individuals are part of a dynasty or family with a known name, that name may be added in parentheses after theirs. For example,Hamilcar (Gesco) orHanno (Barcid).
If the birth and death dates of the individual, or the dates in which he held some particular office, are known, they may be added in parentheses after the name. For example,Bostar (200 BC-140 BC) orHanno (strategus 200 BC).
So, any further comments on this? It seems to reflect current practice, more or less; should we just adopt it as a convention for Punic (and Greek?) names?Kirill Lokshin01:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies.
The article has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content.
The article is free from major grammatical errors.
The article contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams.
Based on the discussion so far, the first four seem to have broader support than the last one. In any case, what do people think of these? Can we agree on some subset of these criteria as a minimum benchmark for B-Class? Do people have any other suggestions that haven't been mentioned yet?Kirill Lokshin17:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a good place to start - if there are major problems once we get started, we can re-evaluate.Carom20:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Has my vote, with a review after some experience. Two suggestions: somewhere permanent to comment on the criteria (to give a basis for further discussion/ praise) and a check list of the satisfied criteria as a hidden list for each article. This last may be "ott", but it would give editors a guide on what needs to be done. Perhaps some experienced editors apply the criteria to some existing start and B articles, as a kick-off?Folks at 13722:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Further discussion would presumably take place at theassessment department, since that's where the criteria would be listed. As far as a checklist, I'll see what might be possible; but I'm not sure how feasible it would be from a technical standpoint.Kirill Lokshin23:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, technically feasible it is: seeUser talk:Kirill Lokshin/Sandbox/Template. The "checklist" is controlled by a series of parameters named "B-Class-1", "B-Class-2", etc., matching up with how the criteria are numbered; these can each be set to "yes", "no", or left blank, to indicate whether the article meets or fails that criterion. At the moment, the parameters only display on the talk page; I'll try to add some code that will automatically create categories for (a) B-Class articles that don't pass all five and (b) pre-B-Class articles that do, so that checking for reassessment can be more easily done.
(And the categorization code is done. The template can now recognize both cases and put the page into a category for review accordingly.)Kirill Lokshin03:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Umph. There's definitely some benefit to haing a visible checklist of what, exactly, needs improving in an article, but I wonder if a) it might not be a little too technical, and b) if B-class would even be the right place to introduce this kind of checklist. In some sense, it seems like the kind of thing that would be most useful pre-A or pre-FA.Carom14:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Trying to boil down A/FA stuff to a checklist might be more trouble than it's worth; and, since those levels go through formal reviews anyways, the checklist wouldn't necessarily tell us as much in terms of whether the article could be moved to the next level or not. (Not that wecouldn't add checklists for those, of course; but they'd be even more complicated than this one, and would largely be redundant to more thorough things like actual peer review.)
The overly technical part is a valid concern. I'm not sure how complicated we can make it before it starts to frustrate people; we've dealt with complicated parameter schemes before (e.g. the infoboxes), but I don't know how comfortable anyone besides myself would be with having five extra parameters to fiddle with here.Kirill Lokshin14:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
And I thought all my concerns were valid, Kirill! ; )
Personally, I don't mind fiddling with the extra parameters, but I think it probably puts the B-class review in the hands of a relavtively small number of editors, and the goal is, ultimately, to allow virtually anyone to perform this level of assessment. One solution might be to make the checklist optional (sort of an "on request" type thing).Carom14:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It would be optional—in the sense that it wouldn't be required to actually change assessment—in any case. My intent was for something that would allow, as Folks at 137 suggested, a convenient way to indicate which criteria were met and which weren't (particularly in the case of an article failing to be promoted to B-Class over several attempts); obviously, there wouldn't be any requirement to use the checklist todetermine promotion (although I expect that we'll eventually get most of them filled in as the housekeeping catches up).Kirill Lokshin15:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess we can try it out and see how it works...In the long run, it might be more useful for a slightly more in-depth version of the assessment statistics than it will be as a tool in the B-class assessment.Carom17:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I will throw my vote in for this as well. Good guideline to get people pointed in the right direction but still vague enough to allow some flexibility.--Looper592023:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Any other comments regarding either the criteria or the checklist? If there are no objections, we can probably implement both in the next day or two.Kirill Lokshin12:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I still think that supporting materials are more impt than extensive citations towards making an article look nice, and making it useful, but as always I am perfectly happy to go with the flow.LordAmeth13:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've put the new criteria up onthe assessment page and enabled all of the checklist code in{{WPMILHIST}}; let's see how this goes! :-)
(As an initial matter to work on, we need to find a good example of a B-Class article for the "Example" column in the quality level table. ;-)Kirill Lokshin01:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I would say that it's a little skimpy to fulfill #2. Although I cannot point to the precise information that is missing, the sections seem a little underdeveloped to me. However, I believe it fufills the other criteria.Carom22:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Germany or Nazi Germany?
Several boxes, eghere have had "Germany" changed to "Nazi Germany". There's a brief argumenthere and there have been reverts (not yet a war). My own opinion is that "Germany" suffices and is correct. Any views before I sharpen my blue pencil?Folks at 13723:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that Nazi should be added in front of Germany. Nazi Germany is more to me like a time period or a political party. I think that it is like putting Kingdom of France in front of France or Classical Greece in front of Greece.Kyriakos23:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
"Germany" seems more correct, as we're not disambiguating here, and it's not a differentstate from pre-Nazi Germany; there's no more need to label it as "Nazi Germany" than there would be to have "Fascist Italy". (I suspect, however, that such questions of usage may be treated differently in non-English historiography. Russian works, for example, tend to use "Reich" or "Fascist" as adjectives where English works would use "German" or "Nazi".)
I think just "Germany" is preferable; where disambiguation is necessary (i.e. in the armed forces) it's probably best to use things like "Bundeswehr," "Wehrmact," etc. (there was a related discussion in that big, long section on the new naming convention at the top of the page, but good luck finding it).Carom23:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
If you use Nazi you should add Germany because the GermanNationalsozialisten did have similar and supporting parties all over Europe and many of them joined during WWII with a swastika in the flag. Germany might be more appropriate as we likewise do not disambiguate Cromwell-England or NapoleonIII-France(Second French Empire) and also in the cases of Kuomintang and Maoists we use the official designations or China. Germans do in many cases prefer a rather different term then Germany(Deutschland) for the state ruled by the Nazis, but that's not encyclopedic.Wandalstouring01:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It's also not the name of the country; we don't do "Republican United States" or "Communist Vietnam", either. ;-)
(More seriously: there's no need to bemore specific here, as there's no other "Germany" that we need to prevent confusion with.)Kirill Lokshin03:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
IMHO just "Germany" should be used as text, however if a flag icon is to be used then the NSDAP flag would be the one of choice. (Speaking of which, is there a [[Template:###]] for that flag? I was working on the Operators section of theFieseler Fi 156 article andTemplate:GER was the only thing I could find to use.) -AerobirdTarget locked -Fox One!02:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a note, the problem is that in thatBattle of the Bulge edit the wikilink was also changed. I only have minor problems with changeing the name itself from Nazi Germany to Germany, but it should still link to the articleNazi Germany. As a side note, Germany of the 20th century is generally divided into four to five phases. 1)TheGerman Empire, 2) theRepublic of Weimar, 3) theThird Reich, 4)FRG andGDR and 5) United Germany (Vereinigtes Deutschland (technically still the FRG but rarelly if ever called that). This is similar to the French numbering of Monarchies/Republics/Empires (I think it's the fifth Republic now).--Caranorn12:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Purpose: To show a faction, especially a combatant or other territorial claimant as less than a "nation" but to distinguish its organization as more than just a "political party" (Template:Infobox_Political_party).
Different conflicts might need their own versions. Clan/tribe was definitely something used regarding indigenous ethnic conflict. Others might use "ethnicity" or "sect."
Not bad. It may be worthwhile to develop it into some sort of generalized template for factions, though; I doubt that there would be any benefit to having a separate one for each war.Kirill Lokshin04:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. If someone else is more of a wizard at template whacking than I am, feel free to snarf this. Just leave a link here as to where your more genericized work is located. --Petercorless05:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Peter, Kirill, nice work. I can't be positive how or when I'll make use of this, but it's excellent for helping to describe non-state actors, and I'm surprised we never thought of it before. Might work well for samurai clans and such, though as families they're not quite the same as factions formed to fight a particular ideological/political/military conflict... might work, might not. But for the modern stuff, like the Somalia conflict, very useful I'm sure.LordAmeth21:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Not sure what you're excited about. The Vanuatu Mobile Force is a small organisation that serves as the paramilitary arm of the Vanuatu Police. Just another small military/paramilitary, like the Civil Guard ofCosta Rica (4,400, 7 paramilitary urban companies, Spec Ops unit, 6 provincial units (IISS Military Balance 2006)) or one of the Caribbean island states.Buckshot0604:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yep. It would probably be better off merged to the police article, though; a 300-man auxiliary isn't really going to provide enough material for a good article of its own, I suspect.Kirill Lokshin04:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The article contains almost no information and no references. I'm not sure why either that it's a separate article from the mainVanuatu article. I've just taken some action to hopefully clean-it up.Cla6804:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the "Military of Vanuatu" even called the military? The last time I heard they didn't even have armed forces, only police. --Ineffable300004:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we can merge all these defence troops in the pacific into one article as all these nations are allied and do ccoperate in education, defense and police work + Australia.Wandalstouring15:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Militaries of Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia? In any case, some sort of merging would probably be a good idea, regardless of where this particular AFD winds up going; most of these groups simply don't have enough written about them to sustain reasonably-sized articles.
(It's not a big deal either way, though; given how many stubs we have, at this point, a few more or less won't really make a difference.)Kirill Lokshin20:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Military of Antarctica
This discussion contains material which is kept because it is consideredhumorous. It isnot intended, nor should it be used, for any research or serious use (unless the research is aboutWikipedia itself).
The Special Forces of Antarctica
I have thought very hard and I decided that theMilitary of Antarctica needs an article. Antarctica has one of the biggest militaries in the world and I am surprised that it doesn't have an article. I have so many references about the Military of Antarctica so that I can write a featured article about it in a few hours (or even in less than an hour). Everyone knows a lot about the Military of Antarctica but hasn't yet written an article.
I am also thinking about writing an article about theWars of Antarctica. Here are some pages I am also thinking about creating:
Come on Ineffable3000 here we are trying to have a complex discussion on the Military of Antarctica and you bring up something silly likeAntarctican Jungle War in the 9th century. As you and everyone else knows during the 9th Century Antarctica was made out of chocolate fudge and was a very peaceful place, it was not until the 11th century that it was militarised. Lets try to keep these conversations serious.Hossen2706:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Alright, alright. This has just got silly. The section before this was a little funny, but this is just silly. Let's have a proper section now...Carom06:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of being a bit serious,Military activity in Antarctica would be a great topic for a very interesting article. Many national armed forces have carried out very sophisticated and interesting activities in support of scientific expeditions and, if I remember correctly, Argentina and Chile have rattled sabres at each other in the Antarctic. --Nick Dowling07:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that a Military activity in Antarctica is a great idea. If their are enough dedicated editors intrested I think as Ineffable3000 said earlier the article could became a FA in good time.Kyriakos07:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting to see that some people are apparently of the opinion that we should keep perma-stubs around just so we can tag them with categories.Kirill Lokshin20:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The game was fun, but let's disambiguate.
the parody has been nice but went boring and absurd
there isreal military concerned with these regions so covering military presence in the Antarctica and military presence in the Arctica(+ old expeditions) with two sister articles would be feasable.
Vanuatu&co are often quite proud of their forces and it is not their fault that they are few and poor. at least some of these Pacific nations are US allies in an ongoing conflict and do contribute large parts of their armed forces.Wandalstouring15:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
So I guess I can stop working on that article about Admiral Byrd's capture of the Nazis' Base 211 under 'Operation Highjump' in 1946-1947?[1][2] I guess the truth willnever get out ... sigh!Askari Mark(Talk)03:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Jup. I'm really astonished you found that stuff. About 7 years ago I read this during a school work on jet engines and afterwards i never found it again. But if you are interested in such stuff I have a book about ancient Egyptian and Maya flight engines etc. with construction plans. The guy who wrote this built them, and works on patents for his engines.Wandalstouring03:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I have long been curious about German WWII secret aircraft programs (since declassifying some captured original research documents as a young co-op student). Study something long enough and eventually you run all kinds of "stuff". I ran into this nonsense years ago ... and was surprised myself that a Google search turned up a few sources. Fun reading, though, with a little popcorn and a cold beer. ;) Now, tearing apartThe Da Vinci Code —there's man's work (meat, potatoes, and a good stout port)!Askari Mark(Talk)05:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
My 'serious' comment wasn't actually serious. Would the nasty penguins overcome the cute fluffy polar bear cubs? If (when) the Arctic ice cap melts, will they transport polar bears to the Antarctic to ensure their survival?Carcharoth12:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
500
Good news everyone, we have 500 members. As was said in a discussion when the project got 400 members we should have a mini how do you describe it cyber party. Lets hope to continue the great work and continue to have new members join.Kyriakos05:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
500active members; if we include the inactive list, we've had 500 for quite some time. (But I haven't gone through the lists for some time now, so the numbers are probably a bit off anyways. ;-)Kirill Lokshin05:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Many people sign up for WikiProjects and never work with them. I was like that when I first joined Wikipedia. Then I left a bunch of Wikiprojects and began focusing on two. --Ineffable300018:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Upcoming coordinator elections
Just to keep everyone in the loop...
As there haven't really been any complaints with how the previous election (in August) took place, the current plan it to basically repeat the same process for this upcoming one:
Two-week signup period (January 29 to February 11)
Two-week voting period (February 12 to February 25)
Simple approval voting
Seven open positions (One Lead and six Assistant)
In light of some feedback during the last elections, we'll also have two minor improvements to the procedure:
An explicit statement of which current coordinators are standing for re-election
An explicit pointer to where general commentary can be placed
If anyone has any last-minute suggestions, please feel free to make them; otherwise, we'll presumably start the signup period as planned on the 29th.Kirill Lokshin14:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
http://library.thinkquest.org/04apr/00281/romans/rome11.jpgshows a Roman soldier. The question is whether it is a member of the light infantry, calledvelites, or of the heavy infantry, that would beprincipes orhastati. I have a conflict with a member of this project who thinks it is a velites and keeps adding this information in theRoman-Spartan War. Naturally I can tell him what I want, he doesn't believe me, so we let more people add their opinions to solve it. A clear point to disambiguate both units would be whether or not he wears heavy chainmail (velites don't).Wandalstouring19:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Should we mention the fictional representation of future war in Antarctica,Payne Harrison's Thunder of Erebus, as a conceptualisation of what future resources wars down there might look like?Buckshot0601:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Aren't 'in fiction' sections generally frowned upon? A discussion of the potential militarisation of Antarctica and its probable consequences if the treaty system failed would fit in nicely though. --Nick Dowling02:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
As long as it is used to underline the importance of the treaty and is based on some serious sources, OK. Like space warfare where we talk about sats, lasers and missiles, but not Deathstars, not Klingons and not X-wings.Wandalstouring02:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason I mentioned Thunder of Erebus specifically is that it is pretty well researched in military terms, at least. All the military units are depicted reasonably accurately, but, even so, I don't think that the 6th Infantry Division from Alaska will actually turn up there anytime soon!! There must be some good discussion somewhere about resource induced threats to the Antarctic Treaty System. Actually, I've got a old book on various hypothetical conflicts and I'll take a look to add a little bit.Buckshot0618:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Done, and for good measureMilitary of Antarctica now also points to the new article. 'Miltiary activity' is a better title than 'military history' as there has never been any actual fighting in the Antarctic. Buckshot, sorry to dismiss your suggestion out of hand yesterday - I was unfamiliar with the book. I think that informed speculation on the nature of war in the Antarctic would be within the scope of the article - it will certainly highlight why no-one has tried it! --Nick Dowling22:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Thats a good idea for an article. The recent very odd dispute between Canada and Denmark over an island between Greenland and Canada could also be included, along with the related expansion in Canadian military activity in the arctic. --Nick Dowling06:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
No it can't. It's a diplomatic, not a military confrontation.
The Arctic convoys didn't go over the Arctic ice shelf, but rather through the northern parts of the Atlantic, so this topic is covered in the convoy articles. The difference to the other convoys was that they met German surface ships and had a military escort that occasionally was ordered to run away. What can be discussed is Svalbard, the submarines in Greenland and the bases in Alaska or Iceland. We will have more to say about the Arctic in the Cold War. A possibility for inclusion would be reported raids of the Inuits and other Arctic people and the Russian conquest of the Aleutian Islands.Wandalstouring08:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Defining the Arctic as the region within the Arctic Circle is helpful in some respects for a "history of the region", butArctic warfare, dealing with warfare outside mountains, but in cold temperatures, doesn't restrict itself to that definition. It includes Siberian and winter warfare (such asWinter War andOperation Barbarossa), and warfare in a region disputed between Pakistan and India (Siachen conflict). I think that last example goes too far myself, but I think that the training that Scandinavian, Canadian, US and Russian military recieve in cold weather warfare should be covered in theArctic warfare article. The countries surrounding the Arctic should probably also be included in a history of military activity in the Arctic.
Looking at the question of why the Arctic convoys were so-called, they didn't go as far north as the permanent Arctic sea ice, but they did go into the Arctic Circle.Battle of the Barents Sea took place in theBarents Sea, part of theArctic Ocean. If you look at the map in the Barents Sea article (the map should be added to the Arctic convoys article), you will see the convoys went from first Iceland, then Scotland, round the northern tip of Norway, to reachMurmansk. SeeImage:Barents Sea map.png andImage:World map with arctic circle.jpg (that last one is rubbish, but just good enough to see that the convoys did go inside the Arctic Circle).Carcharoth12:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget the U.S. (perhaps other NATO countries have done so as well) and Russian submarine missions beneath the Arctic ice cap.Cla6808:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The title isn't Arctic warfare but military activity in the Arctic, yes you can include the convoys and theBattle of Narvik and theWinter War if you draw the line along the arctic circle. iceland is south of it, but could be considered a possible candidate for inclusion.Wandalstouring16:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of interesting material inJames Bamfords book about the history of the NSA and the development of Sigint collection during the cold war.ALR12:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I haven't actually got the book at the moment, read it a year or so ago. And whilst my interests do include Int Ops, I'm wary of adding material on some topics for external reasons. SigInt ops in general is one I'm very careful of.ALR13:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Well it is available in books, but I don't know if it's been declassified or not. I suppose talking to the National Archive might be interesting, but it's still a topic I'm cautious of discussing.ALR14:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The most constructive course of action might be to ask the anonymous editor who made the edits for the source of their information.Carom22:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
That may be the case. You could, however, raise the question on the article talk page. It may not lead to a constructive conversation, but it would seem like a reasonable course of action to me.Carom22:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems with "drive-by" edits from anonyomous editors is that they don't often understand the Wikipedia culture way of doing things (discussion pages, talk pages, etc.). If he/she doesn't respond to a request for discussion on the IP's talk page, revert away. If he/she is serious about the edit, they'll investigate and learn the system.Cla6808:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Military exploration
The above stuff aboutAntarctica and theArctic got me thinking about the role of the military in the exploration of these, and other remote areas of the globe. From my knowledge of thehistory of exploration, and the Arctic in particular, there is a long history of military expeditions, ormilitary personnel, engaging in exploration.Captain Cook's expeditions were undertaken as part of theBritish Navy's history of exploration. I can also recall several military expeditions to places likeMount Everest, and there was that military expedition that got lost in a deep valley in (I think)Borneo. Is there any chance of a Wikipedia article, or overview, of the role of the military in the history of exploration? And what would be a suitable name?Carcharoth00:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Oops. Cook's expeditions were sponsored by theRoyal Society. Though theBritish Admiralty also seems to have been involved. But sadly, there doesn't seem to be a full history of exploration article.Exploration is not good enough, andAge of Discovery is the closest thing to what I was looking for. What I really want though is a history of exploration in the four centuries after that period is said to have ended (early 17th century). Am I missing an article somewhere?Carcharoth01:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
We need to disambiguate here. Was it an expedition with military objectives or was it an expeditions where some chaps in uniforms were taking part(Gagarin, Armstrong). If we include the later into military history expeditions we can make a very short list of non-military expeditions until the 20th century. Furthermore every time a space shuttle or Soyuz spacecraft lifts there is likely to be someone with a military background on board.Wandalstouring08:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
You are right. Disambiguation between military objectives and military personnel taking part in non-military expeditions is needed.Robert Peary was a navy officer when he reached the North Pole, and was promoted to Rear Admiral following that achievement. I'd be interested to learn how much the military funded and supported his efforts. His team was taken to the Arctic on a US Navy ship. Several strands of exploration history can probably be discerned here - first you have adventurers exploring to find new lands, often to claim them or discover wealth, or simply to explore the unknown. Then there are organised military expeditions to survey new lands. Then, with the rise of science organisations like theRoyal Society and theUSGS, you have those organisations commissioning or organising expeditions. I would be very interested in picking out military and non-military contributions to all this, plus of course the more straightforward expeditions of conquest to far-flung lands.Carcharoth12:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It is a text on a website with a specific title. You give the best link to the website or the text and the title of the article + when you retrieved it. Just like pubmed, etc.Wandalstouring09:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Best to cite them as though they were a printed journal article, and then add (accessed via JSTOR) or something similar at the end. They're not a website per se - citing the electronic source is conceptually a bit like citing a print article via the library I found it in...Shimgray |talk |00:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This, incidentally, is one of the reasons why flag icons are discouraged: the flags tend not to be the correct ones for the period in question. (Which isn'tthat big of a deal with US flags, but tends to be rather more noticeable in cases where the flags have undergone total redesigns.) ;-)Kirill Lokshin16:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
