The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such asthis nomination's talk page,the article's talk page orWikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was:promoted bySonOfYoutubers talk 05:10, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

• ... thatKlaus König, who appeared as Wagner'sTannhäuser internationally, performed the tenor solo in Beethoven'sNinth Symphony conducted byLeonard Bernstein after theFall of the Berlin Wall?Source: several
  • Reviewed:Audrey Hawthorn

Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2025 (UTC).

• The article meets DYK requirements: it is new enough, long enough, and adequately sourced. It is free from close paraphrasing, and a QPQ has been done. The article appeared on Recent deaths so it remains DYK eligible.

There are, however, multiple issues with the hook as currently written. The first is that it is hard to understand: the mention of "after the Fall of the Berlin Wall" is vague. Is it referring to a performance during the actual destruction of the Berlin Wall, immediately after the wall's fall, or is it referring to a time period? Second, the hook is very complex: it is hard to see the point here. What is the relation between him performing Tannhäuser and performing the Ninth Symphony? One doesn't lead to another, and it is unclear what is even the main hook fact. Even the mention of Bernstein seems irrelevant to the hook, if the intention is to focus on König. The hook as written is not only hard to understand, but it isin dire need of a trimming.

The third, and perhaps the biggest issue, is hook interest. As currently written, the hook fails DYKINT: it is unlikely to be perceived as interesting to a non-specialist reader. The layperson reader would not find it interesting that an opera performer performed Tannhäuser or Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. This is what the regulars at WT:DYK would call a "boring" hook, and it would be very unlikely to survive scrutiny at WT:DYK. I have struck the hook due to these issues: please propose a new one (do not unstrike, as unstriking does not resolve any of the three concerns I have raised), and ideally a completely different direction.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 11:41, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

We could split the hook in two only: DYK has only one sentence for him. We could end at that he was the tenor called to portray Tannhäuser at some of the greatest opera houses in the world. But then we'd miss that not only was he great in concert, but he took part in this truly legendary performance right after the border between the Germanies was opened (where for the first time the word "Freude" was replaced by "Freiheit" (Freedom}, which was done again in a Soladarity concert for Ukraine in Frankfurt in April 2022}. Some people may remember, and remember better when Bernstein is mentioned who stood for that. To say only that would leave him a concert singer while he was one of the few heldentenors in opera at the time, but of the Tannhäuser type, not the Siegfried type, - the roles are given to distinguish, like you wouldn't only say about a sports person that they played with balls, but say if tennis or baseball. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

The issue here Gerda is that the context you are giving is simply not information that the average reader knows. The average reader is not going to know about how big of a deal Tannhäuser is, or what a heldentenor is. You are an expert on classical music and opera, but the average person will know almost nothing if not nothing about it. If anything, your explanation only further shows why the hook does not meet DYKINT. If you want something simple, maybe a hook about his background as a house painter and decorator would work. At the very least, it would require less knowledge from the average reader.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 14:13, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

No. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Given the lack of a suitable hook, I am marking this for closure. If you want the nomination to continue, instead of asking for a second opinion or reverting this edit, please propose a new hook instead.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 14:23, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No. I don' want something simple. I want to get as close as what wasspecial about this unique person as I can. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:26, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

4meter4: do you have an idea? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:28, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Nothing hooky stands out. The article lacks a compelling biographical narrative and is a bit tooWP:RESUME like at the moment. It's hard to come up with something hooky when all you have is a bunch of repertoire/venue lists and reviews that lack anything particularly striking. It's the personalization of content that makes a biography hook stand out, and at the moment the article doesn't really capture what makes Klaus König different from other operatic tenors of a similar stature. You don't get the sense of who he is as human being or what made him unique as a singer, although you can tell what kind of tenor he was if you know opera. But knowing someone'sfach/repertoire isn't really all that interesting. The problem is honestly in the content. You'll need to dig around to find a fact that is compelling and add it to the article, because currently there is nothing there suitable for DYK.4meter4 (talk) 22:09, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

ALT1 ... that German operatic tenorKlaus König trained as a house painter and decorator before starting his music career?@4meter4: How does this sound? This seems to be the only thing in the article that seemed hooky to me.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 07:38, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd rather withdraw. He had attention when among the Recent deaths. The chance that DYK potentially offers is to say somethingdefining about him. I wouldn't be surprised if that memorable concertto liberty was among his proudest moment, and doubt that the training as a housepainter was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt No Gerda. Please readWP:DYKHOOKSTYLE. DYK's purpose is not to say something defining but somethingsurprising orattention grabbing. The Symphony No. 9 concert was important and it is interesting but it takes more than a paragraph to really explain its significance. There's not really a way to distill what made that concert special into a single sentence. You have to remember that many readers who were not alive during the Cold War may not be familiar with the division of Berlin or the Berlin Wall, and Symphony No. 9 concert was unique because of it's deliberate bringing together of international artists from across political divides to perform instead of an "ode to joy" an "ode to freedom". The article itself doesn't really do a good job at contextualizing the concert and its significance either. Regardless, that fact isn't really about König but more about the concert. König was only one of hundreds of musicians who participated. The best biographical hooks are centered on the individual, and are about them.4meter4 (talk) 15:52, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

The readers not alive might learn a bit, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5 andGerda Arendt I added a quote from one of the magazine sources which asserts importance which I think could work as a hook. See below.4meter4 (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

• Alt 2 ... that opera singerKlaus König has been described as "one of the most important tenors of his generation, especially in theheroic tenor repertoire"?

  ALT2 is acceptable. I'd like it better without the initial "opera singer", - we can't help that the quote is repetitious (tenor). It's also not clear how much authority the unnamed source has to declare such a thing. I believe that most readers knowing what a heroic tenor is will expect some Siegfried, not Tannhäuser (the by far more interesting character). But acceptable, thank you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt You have to remember that the majority of English speakers, particularly in the United States, are fairly ignorant about opera. Most have never been to an opera performance, and are not familiar with the terminology used invoice type/fach classification. Most readers won't know what a "heroic tenor" is and won't automatically associate the word "tenor" with an opera singer. Americans will think of school or church choirs and the tenor section when they hear the term. Opera literacy is not imbedded within the American consciousness as a whole and Wagnerian opera is staged for the most part only in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, and Houston. It rarely gets performed outside of those cities because the company's don't have the resources. Americans make up the largest percentage of readers and editors on the English wiki, so we do need to consider what is "specialized knowledge" in relation to the general public on the English wiki.4meter4 (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I am aware of this. Only, If they know "tenor" from choir singing they know enough to understand the hook without "opera singer", and "heroic" invites to investigate further. Those who don't may not know "opera" either, or be not interested at that early point.

ALT3: ... thatKlaus König made his debut at theMetropolitan Opera, as Erik in Wagner'sDer fliegende Holländer, at age 59?

ALT4: ... thatKlaus König portrayed Wagner'sTannhäuser inDresden, for his American debut, and at theTeatro Massimo Bellini at age 60? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think this is going anywhere, so I am approving only ALT2. ALT3 and ALT4 do not resolve 4meter4's concerns regarding readers' familiarity with opera roles; in fact, they are only doubling down on the issues he raised about how niche opera is among the general public. ALT2 is cited inline and verified in the source. It is admittedly not the most spectacular hook, but I can't approve ALT1 myself since I proposed it, so ALT2 it is.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 05:29, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Those who don't may not know "opera" either, or be not interested at that early point. That isexactly what we are trying to avoid with DYK hooks. If a DYK hook is explicitly only targeted to those who may be interested in the hook, no matter how small that group is, that goes against DYKHOOKSTYLE/DYKINT. ALT3 and ALT4 are rejected.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 05:31, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't think you understood what I tried to say.

1. regarding ALT2: I can see people not interested in opera, who would not read ALT2 to the end because the term "opera singer" drives them away.
2. I wrote ALT3 especiallyfor everybody: about a person with a stamina to make whatever debut at age 59, but find it only fair to say precisely what that debut was. CriticTim Page found him "vital and credible" in the role (of a lover loosing his girl to someone more attractive), which could be added for extra quirkiness. I think to say exactly that he sang a supporting role at the Met at that age gives him a much more precise (not vague and exaggerated) position than any "has been described" stamp. What do you think,4meter4? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I do not think you understood what 4meter4 said about people's ignorance about opera. The hooks you proposed still require being at least knowledgeable about opera, which probably 90% of Wikipedia's readership are not. The average reader will not know who or what Erik, Der fliegende Holländer, Tannhäuser, or the Teatro Massimo Bellini are. That does not mean that we cannot have hooks about things readers are unfamiliar with, but it does mean that a hook has to be easily understood or appreciated by someone unfamiliar with the topic. The point has to be easy to get even if a reader does not know the names involved. A hook about the subject being important because he performed at the Teatro Massimo Bellini, a place that maybe over 95% Wikipedia readers have never heard of, let alone know the significance of, is exactly the kind of hook that DYKINT discourages.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 09:18, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Basically Gerda, a goodrule of thumb is this: if a hook's interestingness requires the nominator explaining why the hook fact is interesting on the nomination page, then that hook does not meet DYKINT. You having to explain ALT4 here, instead of letting the hook speak for itself, shows exactly why it is not a suitable hook.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 10:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Basically, if a hook says that someone made his debut at age 59, that is comprehensible for everybody, and even somewhat quirky. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

ALT2a: ... thatKlaus König has been described as "one of the most important tenors of his generation, especially in theheroic tenor repertoire"?

ALT3a: ... thatTim Page described the debut ofKlaus König at age 59 as "vital" and "credible"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Normally I might be okay with ALT3a, but review quote hooks have done poorly in the past, so it might be better to move on from it. Gerda, I think you need to be more open to hook wordings that aren't specifically your own wordings, because in many cases, the wordings you propose are not the best option. You have to accept that, sometimes, reviewers and promoters will prefer wordings by other editors and not your own, and that's okay.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 12:40, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd prefer ALT3a because 1) ALT2 is also a reviewer hook, 2) it's vague and exaggerated (as said before), 3) it's not credited to someone or an organization while Tim Page is a person with an article whom you can trust more, 4) it misses the quirkyness of vitality for a debut at age 59. Please try to look objectively at hooks, disregarding where they come from.

What do you think af ALT2a, in the name of "trim"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

This has been a recurring thing of yours for years where you are hesitant to allow or accept hook wordings that you did not write yourself, even if the ideas came from other editors. It has to be specifically your wording, and if other editors reword or modify them, you object.

Anyway, ALT3a as written is unsuitable for multiple reasons: it is wrong (he did not debut as a performer at the age of 59, but rather as Erik). It does not even mention Erik; even if the hook was modified to an ALT3b that did mention Erik, unless a reader is familiar with the role (and to parallel what4meter4 mentioned above, probably over 95% of our readers do not know Erik), it is not clear as to why it is a big deal that he debuted at such a role at that age. ALT2 may also be a reviewer hook, but at least it does not require the reader to be familiar with opera roles. ALT2a is not ideal because it is not clear in the hook that he is an opera singer: as 4meter4 said, even the word "tenor" is not limited to opera. Personally though, I still think that ALT1 is the best option given how it does not require any knowledge of opera to understand.

Gerda, your hooks have been questioned oninterest grounds for years, so please follow the guidelines on interestingness and propose a hook that is accessible to a broad audience, or at least agree to a hook that does not require the deep expertise on opera that you have.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 13:20, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Another suggestion: if you want to avoid another long discussion (this discussion is already longer than the article itself), a sensible option would be to agree to ALT2 and wait for a promoter to promote it. Once the article has its run on the main page, that's it. You already said earlier in the discussion that you were fine with ALT2, so if you can just agree to it instead of continuing to object and prolonging the discussion, then König will be featured on DYK sooner rather than later.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 13:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I said earlier in the discussion that ALT2 isacceptable, which is a lot because many are not. However, it is a vague and exaggerated claim, and said so at the same time. ALT3a doesn't claim it was his debut as performer, and it wasn't as Erik (that was much earlier) but at the Met, but aren't we requested to not tell it all? Can't readers find out which debut, raising curiosity? He made some debut at 59 and was regarded as vital, that's much funnier than the general praise that says about nothing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:16, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I think alt3a is misleading. The term debut is usually interpreted to mean the first professional performance by an artist in their career. It could end up atWP:ERRORS. I'm scratching it. A "house debut" is qualified through context, and a hook doesn't have space to do that.4meter4 (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5 I suggest leaving it up to the promoter to choose between ALT2 and ALT2a. They both have the same fact and are clearly verified. It's now just a matter ofWP:DYKHOOKSTYLE preference, and we can trust the promoter to make a good decision.4meter4 (talk) 17:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd support anything that would just bring this to promotion.@4meter4: Is ALT1 really not a suitable alternative to ALT2/ALT2a?Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 22:47, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

no - I don't see how saying someone trained as a housepainter is interestingat all. If it was astronaut, or philosopher. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I find ALT1 really good at generating interest, and while I might not be on the same side as Narutolovehinata5 all the time, I really like their hook.Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt:, can you either give your approval for ALT1 to run, or withdraw the nomination. Thanks,~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:01, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I said it before: I'd rather withdraw than run ALT1. Can someone please tell me howanybody would be interested in a person who trained as a housepainter? I'd accept ALT2, or better shorter ALT2a. We talk about a person who recently died. To say no word about what made him one of the greatest, but spend characters on something he left behind early in life, seems not to do justice to him, sorry. His article had c. 5k views while on the Main page (sadly not for long). You can help him to a few more by accepting ALT2. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Note: I don't find ALT2 or ALT2 interesting; as DYK slots are currently under high demand, I won't be promoting them. Other promoters may disagree.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you please tell me what you find interesting in ALT1, because I can't understand. Viriditas, AJ, N.? And perhaps also why you'd find it more interesting than a "vital" house debut at age 59?

ALT3b: ... that whenKlaus König made his house debut at theMetropolitan Opera at age 59,Tim Page described it as "vital" and "credible"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:57, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Because it is a wonderful story. A blue collar house decorator who took evening classes when already thirty years old, and fifteen years after that became an internationally renowned performer for twenty years, while still maintaining his decorating business (not that you'd know that last bit from the article—of course he couldn't have been "proud" of something like that). As for "vital" and "credible", so meaningless I've removed it from the article.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:45, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

If I were writing this nomination, it would be something likeALT4: ... thatKlaus König, who worked as a painter for over thirty years, played lead operatic roles at major venues in Vienna, London, Milan, Paris, and New York? (Paris not in the article but easily added.)~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:56, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Good idea, thank you, but a long list of capital cities is too much quantity for my taste, and painter might be misunderstood as another Van Gogh. Better something specific perhaps?

ALT4a: ... thattenorKlaus König, who worked as a house painter for over thirty years, made his house debut at theMetropolitan Opera [in New York City] at age 59?

ALT4b: ... thatKlaus König, who worked as a house painter for over thirty years, made his debut at theRoyal Opera House [in London] as Wagner'sTannhäuser in 1984.

Others possible. I'd prefer ALT4b because it's a lead role, an interesting complex character, and Royal sounds good to some. By naming the role, you not only define the voice type (tenors can be so different) but also get access to an interesting story, and there's no requirement to know any of it before if reader is curious enough to explore. Will get the duration of his shop (he was the boss, - not sure that he did much painting in the 30th year) to the article. I am aware that - having to deal withAlfred Brendel (a giant) and Gorai (emotionally tough) - I neglected him a bit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

"Made his debut" will typically be interpreted as "gave his first performance overall, not just at one place"; if that is what "made his house debut" is intended to address, no-one will get that.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

ALT4c: ... thatKlaus König, who worked as a house painter for over thirty years, first appeared at theRoyal Opera House [in London] as Wagner'sTannhäuser in 1984.

The sources, though, use "made his debut at ...". - I foundthis with a lot of detail, but a blog (however educated). They cite a 1994 magazine entry that I can't find online. It could be referenced offline. What do you think. The business seems to have beenLackiererei, for cars. Not my vocabulary. Deepl suggests "car paint shop". ? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:48, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: Rather than listing a list of opera houses or places he performed, why not just simplify it and say that he was also an opera performer for several years? I do not think that any specific mentions of particular opera houses, places, or roles are necessary: just say that he was an opera performer, as I think that being an opera performer and a house decorator at the same time is already eye-catching as it is. Of course, this would require the part about him working both as an opera performer and as a house painter at the same time being at the article. I'm sorry, but I see ALT4a/b/c as too technical or specialist, and I agree that the original ALT4 is too complicated. The thing is: the interesting part here is that he was also a house decorator, so that has to be the focus of the hook and not whatever role he played or where he performed. We just need a simplified version of ALT4 based on above suggestion. For now, I've struck all of the current proposals as none of them seem to be viable.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 00:21, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5 was the rambling monologue intended to go anywhere, or just be unhelpful? After all, with how much you hound them, you should probably be added as a co-nominator on all of Gerda's nominations.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry if the above seemed like rambling. I actually liked ALT4's direction (i.e. the mentioning of both the house painter and his opera career), it's just that the wordings proposed were perhaps a bit too complex. The point was that the best option was probably just to say that he was both a house decorator and an opera performer, without mentioning specific roles or venues.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 07:46, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I am sorry, but no, it isn't. Opera careers are different, and singing a top role (and which) at a top house (and which) is precise facts that illustrate the kind ofthis specific career and the voice. We could go further and add La Scala and the Paris Opera with the same role and the same year, and that's outstanding and not just "an opera career". How about you leave this nom at this point, or rather before striking what others may like? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

• This has been stuck for several weeks now, so proposing some alternative wordings. How do these sound?

ALT2a ... that the magazinePlace de l'Opera calledKlaus König one of the most important tenors of his generation?

ALT4d ... that operatic tenorKlaus König, who performed for over 30 years, also worked as ahouse painter and decorator?

ALT4e ... thatKlaus König continued to run ahouse painting and decorating workshop even after gaining renown as an operatic tenor?

ALT4f ... that opera singerKlaus König, once described as one of the most important tenors of his generation, also ran ahouse painting and decorating workshop?

Adding exact roles and performance venues would probably make the hook more complicated than necessary, but I do like the idea of mentioning both his workshop and operatic careers. The above proposals are straight to the point as well. The article does not directly say that he was a house decorator for over 30 years, so it's probably more accurate to just say he was also one without specifying for how long.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 08:49, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Forgive me but all these hooks need many characters for the house painting aspect (and "house" isn't even clear, seems more for cars), and miss completely the aspect of "heroic tenor" orheldentenor of which he was one ofvery few in the world (while there are thousands of tenors). We don't need to waste characters on the no-name magazine. Replace "most important" by "heldentenor", please, - it's not much longer, and much much more specific. Or be more specific, giving an idea of how "immportant" he was (and don't tell me that's "doing his job", no, that's a job for which he (and no other) was in demand then:

ALT4g: ... thatKlaus König, who kept running apainting shop during his singing career, appeared at theRoyal Opera House andLa Scala as Wagner'sTannhäuser in 1984?

ALT4h: ... thatKlaus König, who kept running apainting shop during his singing career, appeared as Wagner'sTannhäuser in 1984 at both theRoyal Opera House andLa Scala?

We could add Paris as well, but want to stay simple. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

If you want to stay simple, get straight to the point. No need to specify specific roles, they just make the hook more complicated. They also distract from the main point of him also working as a house decorator. Him being a house decorator is the point of interest here for readers, not that he played specific roles.A lot of people who submit hooks tend to overestimate the amount of information that is required, but the end result is a hook that has too much information and is difficult to process. In general, the shorter and punchier the hook, the more impact it has.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 09:13, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

As an additional question, given how you want to highlight him appearing as Tannhäuser, exactly what makeshis performance of that role different from the dozens to hundreds of opera performers who have played that role over the years? If you really want to highlight that particular role in the hook out of the several he played, there must be something special or unusual about that specific performance that warrants being highlighted, other than him performing it at La Scala and the Royal Opera House. I imagine he is far from the only one to have done that particular combination, let alone playing Tannhäuser at either La Scala or the Royal Opera House. As other opera-focused editors have stated in the past, simply playing a particular role is not special by itself especially when it's their job. There has to be something unusual or unique about that specific performance to warrant highlighting. Playing Tannhäuser at La Scala would probably be lost to many readers ignorant about opera. Playing Tannhäuser on the actor's wedding day or the role being reimagined in another way (such as reimagining Tannhäuser in a modern setting) would be more unusual and eye-catching.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 09:17, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

As a compromise, would you agree to the following option?

ALT4i ... that operatic tenorKlaus König, who performed at venues such as theRoyal Opera House andLa Scala, kept running apainting shop during his singing career?

If you really want, I do not think that highlighting Tannhäuser specifically is necessary, but perhaps just specifying some of the opera houses he performed could be a suitable compromise. I would still prefer ALT2a/ALT4d-ALT4f in not mentioning specific venues or roles, but if this is needed to get this nomination across the finish line. Unless Tannhäuser is a non-negotiable for you?Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 09:34, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

The main point isn't the paint shop, sorry. I think Tannhäuser standsbest (shortest and most precise) for what he was great in, better even than "heldentenor". (I don't want to highlight that he was a better Tannhäuser than others, - the fact that he was chosen at those houses implies that. I want it because he was best as Tannhäuser, vs, not Siegfried and Tristan. It describes his kind of voice.) Tannhäuser is short. It just wassuccessful on DYK. It's a great story. Why do you want to stay general? La Scala is more associated with Verdi than Wagner, - it's more interesting to inform that yes, they also play Wagner, and they wanted him for the role. - Trying an analogy: we can say a flower has a bright colour (tenor), or say that it is yellow (heldentenor), or say it's lemon yellow (Tannhäuser). I know what I prefer. In ALTs e and f, the year can be dropped if brevity is the goal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Matthew Wild hook did fine not because of him playing Tannhäuser specifically, but because said performance was unusual (it made Tannhäuser gay), which sort of goes back to my original concern. To answer your other question, saying that "La Scala is more associated with Verdi than Wagner" might not be relevant here as I imagine most of our readers don't even know about La Scala, and those that do probably only know it as a major opera venue without particularly associating it with Verdi. Your flower analogy does not work either because the context of why lemon yellow has to be highlighted is not clear.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 10:03, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

We have an article about him because there was a time when he was the Tannhäuser in demand at the greatest operas around the world, not because he ran a paint job.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:19, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

ps: readers were interested also inTannhäuser for the Wild hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Narutolovehinata5 thatTannhäuser is not a compelling opera to link and is not necessary. It also becomes overly burdensome/unfocused with too many facts. It makes it not hooky and I therefore struck them. The other hooks are usable.4meter4 (talk) 15:58, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

• Approving hooksALT2a, ALT4d, ALT4e, ALT4f, and ALT4i only. These all check out to the cited sources and are interesting enough to passWP:DYKCRIT. The promoter may select one of these at their discretion. Given the protracted conversation and with so many usable hooks, no more hook proposals will be considered out of respect for the DYK community and its volunteers.4meter4 (talk) 16:03, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

  If I had to mention a preference, it would be ALT4f as it seems to be a good summary of his career and how accomplished he was, without relying on mentioning specific venues or roles. ALT4i is my least preferred option largely on complexity and reliance-on-specialist-information grounds. Still, it would be best for the promoter to decide.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 22:37, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, upon giving this further thought, I have decided to withdraw ALT2a from consideration as I feel that the contrast between his opera career and house decorating career is stronger than just simply the claim.Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 22:46, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Fine by me. There are plenty of other good choices. I struck it from the approved.4meter4 (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

• When I die, please mention music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:56, 17 July 2025 (UTC)