Talk:Mudaliar
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REGARDING KAIKKOLAR AND MUDALISIt may be noted here that the terms above refer to only positions and not to caste. the word kaikkolar means one belonging to a regiment. any one can belong to a regiment . similarly mudali means an supervisor or an official. this again does mot indicate caste. Thre by it is proven beyond doubt that the hordes of "mudaliyar" ,"pillai" came to existence after 16th century and are obscure in origin(probably stemmed from jains/buddists). they certainly do not point to caste amd a vedic one at that. hohe of the inscriptions of ancient dynasty describe these castes.
There is another good story behind the origin of these races. During last phases of dwapara age sage ugrasarvas explains to pandavas that in the age of kali many demons will be born in earth as human beings. They will be born into different human castes like brahmins, vaisyas,kshatriyas, sudras etc and colonize different parts of the world. They create confusion and wreak havoc by spreading lies far and wide. They indulge in all kinds of wicked activities to ensure maximum assault on truth. Thereby in the age of kali o bharatas !adherence to one's duty alone can bring one closer to salvation.
—Precedingunsigned comment added by122.162.175.45 (talk)12:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
by Donald F Lach, Edwin J Van Kley - History - 1998 - 662 pagesSnippet view:[1]: Clearly describes the status of Kaikolars.
The Kaikolars are described in great detail in the following research articles and their identity has been clearly proven as the same terinja-Kaikolar Padai of the Chola empire. There is absolutely no question of any ambiguity. You can only deny in vain. Pathetic.
(proves that kaikolan musicians = devadasis)snippet view:[5]link 2:http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2
This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar"[6]
This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king".link2:[7]
This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433).
snippet view: link2:[8]
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411[9]—Precedingunsigned comment added by85.214.25.228 (talk)03:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the bookSome Marriage Customs in Southern India: Deformity and Mutilation, Uralis ... - Page 141 By Thurston. E., the authorEdgar Thurston describes the devadasi custom of Kaikolars(weavers) as follows:
Quoted from book[10]:A custom prevails among the Kaikolars (weavers) by which one woman in each family becomes a prostitute, while retaining her caste. The girl chosen is taken to the temple where a sword is placed beside her with a tali (marriage badge) under it. The tali is then tied round her neck by any woman present and she returns to her own house where she is permitted to carry on any amours she chooses. She gets her share of the family property just as as if no such ceremony had taken place.—Precedingunsigned comment added by65.97.250.141 (talk)04:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pls cite a reference that shows Vallal Sadayapa was a Kongu Vellala gounder.ShivNarayanan (talk)02:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Etymology and definition of words Mudali and Mudaliar.Glosssary section:Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner
ShivNarayanan (talk)02:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Karaiyar, a fishing community also uses Mudali title
Ref:Caste, Nationalism and Ethnicity By Jacob Pandian
JSTOR: Political Emblems of Caste Identity--Sureshmaran (talk)06:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the Book "Rural Society in Southeast India" By Kathleen Gough, it is shown that mudaliar was atitle[11]
Again it is shown clearly the difference between the caste and the title in the book "Uproot Hindutva "By Thirumaavalavan, Meena Kandasamy[12][13]Caste meant a profession and mudali was just a title again
Rajah of Cochin was also awarded this title. It is shown in the book "Jews in India" By Thomas A. Timberg[14]
It can't denote a particular caste as shown in the references --Sureshmaran (talk)14:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner.ShivNarayanan (talk)16:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the list of Backward classes, there is not a single caste mentioned as Mudaliar. It's a caste title of about six or more castes. They may intermarry among them. But the benefits such as reservation comes only under their caste name and not under Mudaliar making it clearly a title--Sureshmaran (talk)00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nowadays Mudaliar is more a community, with some specific castes using this title than a caste. It is not right to call it a caste. It is a community of castes such as Arcot thuluva Vellalars, Sengunthars, Vellalars and its sub-divisions--Sureshmaran (talk)03:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A citation from the book-"Castes-Webster's Quotation,facts and phrases"[15]--Sureshmaran (talk)03:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The following source says the castes cited in the above reference as separate castes in the backward classes list in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu
[16]-This clearly shows that these castes are different but making a Mudaliar community altogether--Sureshmaran (talk)04:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest one image for a field for the images in infobox. Any other suggestions are welcomed--Sureshmaran (talk)04:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to make this section make more sense, as, I assume, did the editor before me, but it needs a dedicated re-write.—Precedingunsigned comment added byChamberlian (talk •contribs)18:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wanted to know if A.R. Rahman should be under the History Section?
@Xenani: you seem to have been responsible for most of the significant changes in the last year but you do not explain what was wrong with the sources that existed before your involvement - you just "rewrote" it. Isn't there an issue withWP:NPOV here? -Sitush (talk)15:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clearcut understanding of the title for viewersKavin Mudaliar (talk)17:50, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Respectable persons, i need to edit as,
The title used by"Senguntha kaikolar, Thondaimandala Vaelalar, Agamudayar(i.e., thuluva vaelalar and arcot mudaliar).
There is also Karaiyar mudali, senai mudali, melakkara mudali, nanjil mudali, kerala mudali, jaina mudali in samall rangesKavin Mudaliar (talk)11:42, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please search google in arcot mudaliars. We dont miss it. Because arcot mudaliars are dubashis, educationalists, rich persons in british empire rhey are subsect of thuluva vaelalar called them selves arcot mudali. (See tn forward caste list)It is surprise to you donot know them they are very prosperous and unavoidable. Plrase serch arcort narainasamy mudaliar, ramasamy mudaliar. Thuluva vaelalar called themselves agamudaya mudaliar. I am not agamudayar but i wish to notice clearly of mudaliar page so. Similarly kerala mudali nanjil mudali(please see tn bc list), senai mudali(search senaithalaivar ) melakkara r(isaivaelalar ) some jains in tanjore. They are small but significant. We donot neglect them.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)06:52, 28 December 2019 (UTC) karaiyars are mudali but mostly known as pattanavar[reply]
No castes used it as tool for social upliftment. In tamilnadu govt backward caste list you will see kerala mudali, nanjil mudali. All the casres are traditional users. Please show error picture in the mi d of wiki viewers. Karaiyars donot use it primarily.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)02:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
References
{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link){{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link){{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)No castes used it to represented themselves superior. Ochan, gadaba, panisava, vanniyars are now donot use mudali title. So we donot mentioned the line. Because we show exact and smart picture of mudaliar in viewers mind.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)03:25, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually all vellalar donot use it. Only saivavellalar, thuluva vellalar use it. Other vellalars use pillai, gounder titles predominantly than mudaliar. Only thondaimandalam saiva, thuluva vellalar use it. I need to mentioned it.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)08:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In tamilnadu karaiyar known as one sect of pattanavan which is fishermen community. Also the citation said they 'adopted 'it. Aldo they donot known as mudaliar in tamil country. They known as pattanavan not mudaliar. It is my view to give clear idea to the viewers of wikipedia. it is unnecessary to mingle them into mudaliar.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)08:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is wrong to mentioned as other communities use it for need high status from actually held. Now no communities use like it. You said communities are ovachar, gadaba, panisiva, palli, jain. They donot use and donot known as mudaliar. Then why do hurt them. No other wiki pages like pillai, gounder, chettiar, are donot do it. So it is unnecessaryKavin Mudaliar (talk)08:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the sourcefor agamudayar. Then why you mentioned them in first. Also all agamudayar donot use it.Kavin Mudaliar (talk)04:26, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Karaiyar comeunder ceylonese mudaliar. In tamilnadu pattanavan 's one sect karaiyar. This karaiyar is different from thqt karaiyar. They are ceylonese mudaliar. Tamilnadu karaiyar are pattanavan not mudaliar. Also the citations said they ADOPTED it. So thwy come under other communities. OkKavin Mudaliar (talk)04:29, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agamudaya Mudaliar reference and link to Agamudayar page is wrong. Agamudaya Mudaliar is the Title used by the caste Tuluva Vellala; not Agamudayar of south TN.Periyarist (talk)18:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, looks like a random split was made atMudaali. It did use this source:[1] which I don't know if it is suitable/used or whatever. The rest of the info is already on this page. Best Wishes,Lee Vilenski(talk •contribs)14:57, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We are not using Raj-era sources like these in Wiki articles as it is a caste based article. It is better to remove the same.Outlander07@talk15:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
References
HelloPikachu 9988,I recently made an edit to the section discussing the historical and social status of theSengundhars andVellalars. The edit was aimed at addressing a contradiction in the sourced material regarding the Sengundhars' status. The source[1] suggests that the Sengundhars were of high rank and rivaled the Vellalars in status, but on pages 16 and 40, the same source indicates that they were treated as untouchables by the Vellalars and were once considered a low-ranking caste.I removed some content that seemed contradictory, but my edit was undone with the note that sourced content should not be removed. I agree that sourced content should generally be retained, but in this case, the contradiction within the source itself needs to be clarified or resolved with additional reliable sources.Additionally, I noticed that theKondaikatti Vellalar andArcot Vellalar (a section within the Thuluva Vellalar) are still listed in the OC (Other Castes) category,[2] which is consistent with their classification asForward Castes. According to a report by Daily Thanthi[3], these groups are recognized as Forward Castes and are eligible for the 10%Economically Weaker Sections (EWS) quota. The EWS quota is specifically meant for individuals from Forward Castes or Other Castes (OC) who are not covered under existing reservation categories (like SC, ST, or OBC). This inclusion in the EWS list further confirms their status as Forward Castes.