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The Kingdom of Judea was not renamed to Syria-Palaestina by the Roman Empire until the 2nd century. It is therefore historically incorrect to refer to "Palestinian Judaism". This can be easily verified by referring to the Wikipedia page or any history textbook about the region. As it stands, there is no source to support the claim of 1st century "Palestinian Judaism".Ausgothika (talk)22:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The ancient Romans pinned the name on the Land of Israel. In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea’s second insurrection, the Romans renamed the province Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y’hudim and in Latin Judaei) and the province (the Hebrew name of which was Y’hudah). “Palaestina” referred to the Philistines, whose home base had been on the Mediterranean coast." -https://www.hudson.org/node/44363
"In 132 the emperor Hadrian decided to build a Roman colony, Aelia Capitolina, on the site of Jerusalem. The announcement of his plan, as well as his ban on circumcision (revoked later, but only for the Jews), provoked a much more serious uprising, the Second Jewish Revolt, led by Bar Kokhba. It was ruthlessly repressed by Julius Severus; according to certain accounts, almost 1,000 villages were destroyed and more than half a million people killed. In Judaea proper the Jews seem to have been virtually exterminated, but they survived in Galilee, which, like Samaria, appears to have held aloof from the revolt. Tiberias in Galilee became the seat of the Jewish patriarchs. The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina), and, according to Eusebius of Caeseria (Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 6), no Jew was thenceforth allowed to set foot in Jerusalem or the surrounding district." -https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Roman-Palestine
"As early as 300 BCE, the term Judaea [Judea] appears, most likely to describe the area where the population was predominantly Jewish. It was distinguished from Palestine and Syria. Coins with the word Judaea or something similar were produced at the time of the first Jewish revolt (66-70 CE). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were conquered, and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel." -https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/origin-of-quot-palestine-quot123.243.94.178 (talk)23:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Despite multiple sources being provided to support the claim that the region was not renamed "Palestine" until the 2nd century, the edit continues to be reverted with absolutely no citation for "Palestinian Judaism". Requesting that those who wish to revert it to "Palestinian Judaism" please cite this.Ausgothika (talk)00:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you miss is that your edit is displayed to Wikipedians, but not to the usual reader of Wikipedia. So no, nobody has approved your edit. A Wikipedian in good standing would have to approve it in order to get displayed to the usual reader.
I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm not even anti-Zionistic. It a simple matter that mainstream Bible scholars write "Palestine", so Wikipedia also writes "Palestine".tgeorgescu (talk)02:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But when mainstream Bible scholars refer to Palestine, they're talking about the region.
For example, and to your point, Wikipedia has an article about the historical demographics of the region of Palestine that goes back at least to the first century CE.
They're not talking about every single culture, country, or people that has been there.
For example and to Ausgothika's point, we wouldn't say theBar Kokhba Revolt was a Palestinian revolt, or that it was a Jewish revolt in Palestine.
The reason for not calling it "first-century Palestinian Judaism" is that Judaism can commonly be said to have had a "first-century" version. But it isn't commonly said to have a "Palestinian" version, "first-century" or otherwise.
No matter what you call the place, that's not a known version of Judaism. Phrasing it this way is liable to confuse and/or mislead readers.Oakling (talk)08:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having trawled through Google results for the phrase, I'll add a cautious correction. There IS a thing called "Palestinian Judaism": but it's a rather niche synonym for what's commonly called Rabbinic Judaism.
The phrase "Palestinian Judaism" is sometimes used in Christian theological and historical studies, when examining the differences between Pauline Christianity and first-century Judaism.
For instance, the book Paul and Palestinian Judaism uses the two terms interchangeably, and also sometimes uses "Palestinian (Rabbinic) Judaism."
I realized, in the process, that not only does the citation seem to be for the sentence which ends the paragraph, not for the rather vague one about "Palestinian Judaism," but also it's for a book in German that I don't have access to.
Okay. The academic consensus seems to be that the idea of Lucifer as fallen angel did come from Jewish works of the time, but from pseudepigraphic Jewish texts (particularly theVita Adae et Evae) rather than from mainstream Judaism.
Having determined this, I came back to this article and noticed that it actually says exactly that, two sections earlier:
"An association of Isaiah 14:12–18 with a personification of evil, called the devil, developed outside of mainstream Rabbinic Judaism in pseudepigrapha, and later in Christian writings, particularly with the apocalypses."
In the section between the two, it says:
"The metaphor of the morning star that Isaiah 14:12 applied to a king of Babylon gave rise to the general use of the Latin word for "morning star", capitalized, as the original name of the devil before his fall from grace, linking Isaiah 14:12 with Luke 10 ("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven") and interpreting the passage in Isaiah as an allegory of Satan's fall from heaven."
Taken in the context of the full article, it seems both redundant and slightly confusing to then say:
"The equation of Lucifer with the fallen angel probably occurred in 1st century Palestinian Judaism. The church fathers brought the fallen lightbringer Lucifer into connection with the Devil on the basis of a saying of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (10.18 EU): "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning.""
Given that:
1. The section immediately before "Interpretations" already made the Satan-lightning-Lucifer connection;
2. The rest of the article consistently uses the term "Rabbinic Judaism" instead of "Palestinian Judaism";
3. Not only does the article explain earlier that this concept came from Judaism, but it did it in more detail earlier,
I propose to just delete these two sentences from the article. And in fact it's 3am and I'm just going to do it; revert me if you must, but I think this is the best solution.Oakling (talk)10:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lucifers name dose not translated to devil Lucifer actually translates to bringer of light or light barer hence his full name lucifer morning star92.41.48.214 (talk)13:59, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lucifer is not the devil, and has nothing to do with hebrew. The name clearly stems from the same indo-european root as Lugh and Loki. The Germanic, celtic and italic branch all stem from the same corded ware migration that occured in bronze age. All share the same root and presumably a similar though by time differentiating role as lightbringers. The christian perspective as Lucifer as Satan (adversary to Yahwee) can have a smaller chapter but should not be the focus in this article if we want to retain some room for secular thought.2A02:1406:33:57B1:B8AB:3082:341D:CA15 (talk)20:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, the Biblical Lucifer does not mean the Devil, it originally meant a military adversary of Israel. It got conflated with speaking about the Devil, it is an easy mistake to make when reading the text casually.
Lucifer means lightbringer, according to whom? In a different mythology, e.g. Rosicrucianism. Now, Rosicrucianism is much moreWP:FRINGE than traditional Christian theology. So I get why Christian theology gets the lion's share.
I don't think that Lucifer is part of Germanic or Celtic mythology. Maybe they had over a lightbringer, but not over Lucifer.
What I think should be changed (format using{{textdiff}}):Lucifer is believed to be a fallen angel and the Devil in Christian theology. Lucifer is associated with the sin of pride and believed to have attempted a usurpation of God, whereafter being banished to hell.
Why it should be changed:1) Lucifer is not an Angel. This is an assumption of man and not based on biblical truth. From Genesis to Revelations God describes Lucifer as the Serpent and the Dragon. Man has always assumed God was speaking figuratively when in fact, God was speaking literally. Lucifer is clearly identified in the Holy Bible as the “anointed cherub: "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;” ~ Ezekiel 28:14
Also, in both Psalms 18:10 and 2 Samuel 22:11 King David spoke this about the Lord:“He rode upon a cherub and flew; And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.”Somehow, I can’t picture our Almighty God riding on the back of one of his angels, as mankind’s portrayal of Lucifer would have you believe. He was not a beautiful Angel but a beautiful Dragon. Cherubim are dragons – not angels and hardly made in the likeness of our Creator as we are! Man has always assumed that cherubim were angels or some type of rank/hierarchy of angels. This is a false assumption. Nowhere in biblical scripture Old or New Testament does it state or suggest that Lucifer was made in the likeness of God as man was. In Proverbs 3:5-6 (NKJV) reads: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths". Man has leaned on his own understanding about much of the bible but according to Job 41 the bible clearly identifies the King of Pride as a dragon or the Leviathan.We know that it was Lucifers pride that led to his fall: “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings ...” ~ Ezekial 28:18. Lucifer is not simply "associated with the sin of pride". According to scripture, he is the King of Pride (the Leviathan). "34 He beholds every high thing; He is king over all the children of pride.” ~ Job 41:34. Because of the disobedience of Adam & Eve, the children of pride are mankind. We are slaves to the one whom we obey (Romans 6:16) and Adam and Eve obeyed Lucifer, thus this is where our sin nature came from (John 8:44), resulting in death (Romans 6:23).Nowhere is scripture does it state that Lucifer has already been banished to hell, not yet. He and his demons will not be sent to "the pit" or Sheol until after God's 2nd Coming, which clearly has not happened yet. According to scripture, (Job 1:7) Lucifer is right here on this Earth. This world is his 'home' and Lucifer and all of his demons are very much present in our world today.
"7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “I have been wandering around the earth, going back and forth in it.” ~ Job 1:7
2 Corinthians 4:4 — King James Version ~ "4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
This verse in 2 Corinthians is talking about Lucifer as the "god" of this world. Again, we are slaves to the one whom we obey and this world does not know God. The best way to understand the Holy Bible is to allow the Good Book to interpret itself and in regard to the true identity of Lucifer, as I have attempted to show you, I believe it does.
References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):
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