Talk:Johan Cruyff
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Cruijfism are brilliant and pure logic eh? ;-) Well, I can't tell for sure if that's sarcasm or not, but I'm not sure how else you could call them (else I'd edit) . Definately strange :-)Kim Bruning 21:52, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Also: Full name would be Hendrik Johannes Cruijff. Why "Johan" became the commonly-used name, and why some write Cruijff and other write Cruyff, and both seem legally correct?
Originally, his family name used to be Cruijff, but outside the Netherlands Cruyff is much easier to pronounce.217.68.50.10
Johan (and Jan) are short for Johannes
I'd like to see a bit more on what positions he played and what he was good at. Was he an exponent of total football as a player, or just later on as a coach? The article doesn't mention where he played except off on the right and it would be nice to see more about his style of play / what made him so exceptional.Sapoguapo22:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
that's a pretty horrible photo of him—The precedingunsigned comment was added by74.65.173.130 (talk •contribs) 06:16, 7 July 2006.
The article says that Cruyff is "typically dubbed as one of the four football "Legends" along with Diego Maradona, Alfredo di Stéfano, Pelé and Zidane" despite the fact that clearly makes five legends (i.e. Cruyff, Maradona, di Stefano, Pele and Zidane)91.108.95.181 (talk)21:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"On loan from Barcelona to 10,000,000 francs, it was unfortunately booed by the Parc des Princes in its output when the defeat of the french club against Valencia. "
This, for instance, is not English.—Precedingunsigned comment added by79.97.217.134 (talk)22:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 'Back in the Netherlands' section appears to have been butchered as theres clearly text missing. I have no idea what should go there but if you read the section, its pretty obvious (KC)—Precedingunsigned comment added by178.167.140.150 (talk)06:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the English Wikipedia users are not assumed to be able to speak any language than other English and quotes are generally only given in English. SeeDel_piero#Quotes orMessi#Quotes for precedents. Everyone is assumed to be able to speak English on enWP so the Dutch text is redundant even for Dutch readers. --Zoz(t)15:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article states that Cruyff didn't play the 1978 world cup because of the new regime in Argentina. That's just not true. Cruyff made the decision already in 1974, the night before the WC final. He stated to the press that it was his wifes wish that the didn't play any more world cups. There was a scandal involving some of the dutch players the night before the semi final against brazil, the pool incident. The players had a pool party with german women and a german news paper printed it. No-one realy knows who took part in it, all of the players wifes says that the party did take place but their husband didn't participate :) Cruyff had to talk to his wife Dani for hours the night before the final and promise that he wouldn't go to Argentina in 1978.
Cruyff played for Barclelona in Spain at that time, the Franco-led fascist country, so refusing to go to Argentina of that reason makes no sense (sometimes Cruyff made no sense at all but that's a different story).
Source: What i remember from the book "Brilliant orange" by david winner --Krautex
Is there a reason why the article itself does not useCruijff consistently, but sometimeCruyff?ChKa20:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could anybody clarify on his height.He seems to be 6"4'Syddharth13:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Johan Cruijff didn't even reached 6ft, he looks much taller because of his long legs, but Cruijff is of Average Height. (Luis, Spain)—Precedingunsigned comment added by72.50.81.81 (talk) 12:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC) He isn't even 5'11", more of 5'10" (or even slightly shorter).—Precedingunsigned comment added byZapspace (talk •contribs)16:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The neutrality of this article is somewhat biased, as it continually references Johan Cruijff as one of the "greatest footballers of all time". This hardly complies with the NPOV policy.Tim.bounceback -TaLk12:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything wrong with this article, Johan Cruijff was one of the Greatest Footballers the world has ever seen. Only Diego Armando Maradona and Alfredo di Stefano can challenge Johan Cruijff's Playmaking abilties. There's no point in questioning Johan Cruijff's Legacy; This was the player who won 3 European Cups (today known as the Champions League) for Ajax (Cruijff created Ajax's Legacy), this player reached a World Cup Final and was the player of the Tournament in 1974 (wich was his one and only World Cup), and Cruijff was also the one who inspired Barcelona FC to their first La Liga Title. There's just no point at all in questioning Johan Cruijff's Status, he is unquestionably one of the Top 3 Best Players of All-Time. If that doesn't "complies" with the NPOV policy - then this means that the NPOV policy is flawed - because there's plenty of Trophies, video footage, and stats to prove it. (Luis, Spain)
When Johan Cruijff played for Barcelona FC, Barcelona FC wasn't a particularly great team, it wasn't something like Di Stefano's Real Madrid which was filled with world class players. Or when Ronaldinho played for Barcelona, which again by that time Barcelona was a star-studded team.
If there's any questions of Johan Cruijff ability, please do consider that he won 3 Champions Leagues with Ajax. When was the last time a Dutch Club won a European Cup??
In the 1974 Final, that Final was a "fixed" contest, Germany won the Final with clear help from the Referee. The Referee for some reason never noticed that cruijff was butchered by Berti Vogts. They say "Berti" gave a remarkable performance, when in Reality all he did was kick Cruijff out of the game.
Any decent defender can do that if the referee allows it. Johan Cruijff was blatantly kicked and shoved for the entire 90 minutes, the referee did nothing about it, it is impossible to run with a ball when a defender is kicking you every single time you touch the ball. Which is precisely what Berti Vogts did.
- (Amateur, España)—Precedingunsigned comment added by72.50.82.237 (talk)08:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The quotations section should be moved toWikiquote.aLii13:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Twice. With full edit summaries. Sorry for the misunderstanding. RememberWP:CIVIL. More and better communication before making a major change like this will help avoid such incidents in the future. --Guinnog00:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Umm... one of the areas of notability that I think should be mentioned in the article is that his various quotes (of which we could give examples) are famous and they give rise to the reasonably widely used term Cruyffism/ Cruijffiaans- I mean, I use it in conversation with football fans and they know what I'm talking about, and the google searches show that it's hardly a neologism. How many other players give rise to this kind of word coinage? I understand the article shouldn't turn into a list of quotes, but please don't overlook this area of notability.Robotforaday01:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When Johan Cruijff played for Barcelona FC, Barcelona FC wasn't a particularly great team, it wasn't something like Di Stefano's Real Madrid which was filled with world class players. Or when Ronaldinho played for Barcelona, which again by that time Barcelona was a star-studded team.
If there's any questions of Johan Cruijff ability, please do consider that he won 3 Champions Leagues with Ajax. When was the last time a Dutch Club won a European Cup??
In the 1974 Final, that Final was a "fixed" contest, Germany won the Final with clear help from the Referee. The Referee for some reason never noticed that cruijff was butchered by Berti Vogts. They say "Berti" gave a remarkable performance, when in Reality all he did was kick Cruijff out of the game.
Any decent defender can do that if the referee allows it. Johan Cruijff was blatantly kicked and shoved for the entire 90 minutes, the referee did nothing about it, it is impossible to run with a ball when a defender is kicking you every single time you touch the ball. Which is precisely what Berti Vogts did.
If for some reason this doesn't complies with "wikipedia". It doesn't matters, because it doesn't changes the fact that for the most qualified Football Experts and Professionals -- the Greatest Football players of all time are; Diego Maradona, Pele, Johan Cruijff, and Di Stefano.
- (Amateur, España)
I've made a start at translating the Dutch wikipedia page (see the Ajax section), but as I'm only usingbabelfish translation there are limits to what I can do. If there are any native Dutch speakers around it'd be great if you could help out :)aLii00:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First off, let me congratulate aLii for the recent improvements to the article. I have already expressed my slight disquiet about the low level of debate here prior to such major changes. But, having seen the work that aLii has done, I think the improvement is real. If you look at the diffhere, you will see what I mean. I suggest we keep aLii's improvements and continue to discuss the improvement of the article. Comments? --Guinnog18:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Style of Play Section is very helpful, it gives insight to people who have no idea of How Johan Cruijff played, in my opinion it is a must. And by the way if it doesn't complies with a Policy - How is that?? There is plenty of video footage from Cruijff, even in "youtube" you can find plenty Complete Matches of Johan Cruijff with the Netherlands. And yes, by watching video footage or complete matches of Johan Cruijff you can clearly see that Cruijff indeed shifted to the wings with devastating effect, and left bemused defenders behind. (Luis, Spain)—Precedingunsigned comment added by72.50.81.81 (talk)12:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I support everything that Brasileiro1969 has written in this page - aLii is not cut out to comment on Football Players, let alone to edit articles about Football. It is extremely clear by reading aLii's comments - that aLii simply does not understand the nature of Football and Football players. Yes, the Style of Play Section is of great importance for any player with "All-Time Greatest Status" - that is players such as Maradona, Pele, Cruijff, Di Stefano, Baggio, Zidane, Platini, Romario, Valderrama, and many others. I apologise if I offend aLii, but I have to say that it's just laughable the way he wants to generalise on one of the Greatest Footballers of all-times. (Luis, Spain)
First of all. aLii, some of the structure changes you implemented look like some form of improvement (new sub headers etc); removing all quotes is a mixed blessing I think, but I do agree there were very many of them, perhaps too many. And there are a few more things which I will not focus on right now.
I will focus on your editing style in general. Cleansing an article from adjectives, applying wholesale changes, whilst proudly waving selective sections of the "Wiki Policy Manual" (NPOV, POV, RS and what have you) at other members does not necessarily classify as good article encyclopedic writing or civil editing. In my opinion a good article excels in a weighted combination of facts and a good, concise, elegant well flowing narrative that captures and highlights all relevant facts and puts them into a relevant context. Now the latter requires adjectives and a certain 'style' and that is the tricky part as it inevitably subject to POV. That is the most difficult part and also the beautiful challenge - the adjective cleansing is the easy part and tends to strip an article almost to database level. Overdoing it will reduce the article to near database level and actually brings the least added value one is looking for if you want to read up about a great person (writer, poet or footballer) whom you do not know. Naturally, use of any adjectives etc need to be balanced and must be supported by facts from a variety of sources and must also be weighted against its peers.
Now aLii, what I object to is your almost religous fundamentalist editing style coupled with no debate. It took a long time and many many blanket edits for you to find this page and discuss the fundamentalist changes you seem to be so eager to implement. However judging from the quality and quantity of your edits, I argue that you know too little about Cruyff and the time he played in to intelligently remove/alter/improve adjectives and sections where appropriate only. That is a POV yes, but one that can be supported with facts from variety of sources and broad documented general consensus - am exclusively not talking about "wiki consensus" amongst 2 or 3 (Irish?) members.
Now more focused on the article. Yes, style of play is crucial as Cruyff was the embodiement of Total Football; he excuted and led this revolution on the pitch, as it was thought out by managers like Rinus Michels. And he excuted it in a way and with leadership in a seemingly unsurpassable way. Cruyff style of play was that he nominally played as a centre forward, but in practice that he roamed the field playing in every position possible. Leading and starting attacks from wherever he was whilst directing his teammates in making the necessary position changes at the right time. That was his gift to football - a shift in thinking. Something that goes beyond mere facts because simple facts cannot capture that. So. Style of Play is crucial in my view.
"Tempestuous" he had a tempestuous relationship with many people (was outvoted as Ajax captain in 1973 and immediately left for Barcelona) and institutions (Dutch FA, refused to play in WC 1978, refused to play in Adidas kit etc). Sometimes this worked against him sometimes it didnt.
Every era has its greatest player. Pele 60s Cruyff 70s Maradona 80s etc etc
Now I am not going into your Style of Play example in detail as I have to go. I just note how you adjective strip it with an almost religious fundamentalism and have removed sections without doing some balanced research and then act semi surprised there is hardly anything left.
The Cruyff turn is part of his style of play and he tended to use it when he would "suddenly move to the wing with devastating effect" Not sure whether devastating is the best adjective in the toolbox for this but he did tore defences apart.
Going now.. more tomorrow.
PS. oh yes, aLii. Pls stop associating me in this discussion with these other users on that accusation page from stubacca. may i note that you show an unhealthy interest in that. even leaving snipe comments on that page. 1. it has nothing to do with you or this discussion 2. it shows your frustration in this matter and your keenness to discredit and incriminate other editors when you get a bit of pushback.
I request you to withdraw/delete these insinuations from your comments on this talk page and resume the discussion fair and square. Thank you.—The precedingunsigned comment was added byBrasileiro1969 (talk •contribs)20:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]
RESPONSE II TO ALIIFirstly, my comments are merely aimed at your editing style not you as a person. Please do not act oversensitive. I believe you are ok, but it is to your editing style and lack of finesse with that I object. However, it is you who engages in personal attacks by linking my role in this discussion to false allegations of another member who got cautioned for his editing/revert style in a similar pushy style that you used at the outset. It is noted that you seem to display in an unhealthy interest in this allegation by leaving comments about it and using insinuations that aim to discredit wherever you can. I classify that as suspect and hostile behaviour that doesnt show 'good faith' so please refrain from those comments as 1. you have nothing to do with that case. it was a dispute that did not involve you 2. you are not a judge nor jury but a mere member of the editing public. It therefore amazes that engage in discrediting other editors and 'cry wolf' when they give you pushback with pointed comments aimed at the behaviour you display. Again, do not act surprised if people react to your actions in a pointed manner if it is you who has been hostile in an inappropriate way first.
Your 'la la' comment is a very poor one in my view. Because never I said that style guides should be thrown aside. However, I did suggest that style guides are there to GUIDE rather than to PRESCRIBE - your fundamentalist tack to things. Secondly it is very poor because you do not offer a proper and intelligent response, quite possibly because you don't have one.
Now one of your concerns seems to be that you don't want the article to sound if written by a fan. Now fans tend to use disproportionate praise for the person they idolize. Again (see also my first reaction) so rather than simply descend into adjective stripping of the article try and assess, based on facts/widespread and documented views/etc., on the particular skill or what have you that the adjective or description is trying to give context to. Reducing an article to an incoherent rubble of facts is a poor form of editing. Therefore.. aLii can you please indicate where and how in the article, in your view, disproportionate praise is heaped on Cruyff.
Not sure why you attach so much value to clarifying Total Football in this article before it is mentioned. Isn't the beauty of the Internet and also Wikipedia that you have hyperlinks that, in a flash, transport you to a place where clarification and background is offered?
Cruyff 'refered to' as the Total Footballer is marginally better wording although what you technically say in the rest of the sentence is incorrect. However, it is nice to see that you seem really pleased with that achievement. Even talking about an educational experience for me. Thank you for that. It brough a smile on my face.
So.. my zealot friend, I will let your changes to the article rest during the weekend so they have a fair chance to grow on me, but will come back after the weekend with some suggestions from my end. Have a good one.
Ok, so I suspect the bit about him chain-sucking Chupa Chupas may be vandalism, but, in the spirit of truth being stranger than fiction, and not actually knowing anything about this guy outside of this article, I thought I'd mention it here instead of changing it myself.Random Pipings (talk)02:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Random Pipings[reply]
The article claims Cruyff was referred as "El Salvador" in el Camp Nou. Sorry to say this is made up, I've never seen that nickname in the Nou Camp or any catalan or spanish magazine, radio or TV program since he started coaching Barça in 1988, and I was (and am) living in Barcelona and following football. No one called him like that. If it's going to be included, it has to be backed up with some link (a valid one if possible).—Precedingunsigned comment added by83.60.62.67 (talk)11:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Following previous decisions, I propose theDirk Kuyt/Kuijt solution. Namely that: we move the page toJohan Cruyff and begin the article "Johan Cruijff, commonly known as Johan Cruyff...". A large majority of English speaking sources use this nomenclature, here are some brief examples:
A quick google news scan shows that6000 use Cruijff (largely non-Anglophone sources) while33,000 use Cruyff (which includes a large portion of the major news outlets). So...should we move it? I say yay. Who says nay?Sillyfolkboy (talk)13:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the reference to Cruijff having turned out for Airdrie, seeTalk:Airdrieonians F.C.#Johan Cruijff for rationale.
Is his name not pronounced similarly to Kuyt as inDirk Kuyt? People always say Croif when it should be like Crowf.Spiderone (talk)07:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is, and for one reason: Dirk Kuyt's name is by-and-large pronounced incorrectly by English-speakers. Dirk Kuyt's name should be pronounced roughly Dairk Koiyt, with a softly rolled 'r'.Rockman999 (talk)22:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An anecdote from WM 1974 - feel free to remove it.
Journalist to different people: Who was the best player of the tournament?
- Cruyff
- Crojf
- Crayff
- Cröyf
- Crejf
- Crüyff
- BeckenbauerKiujm (talk)10:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the section that talks about his life ? And how he got into football!? Come on people, just because wikipedia does not get paid for it's services doesn't mean we do crappy jobs!? Am I Right?—Precedingunsigned comment added by71.84.48.244 (talk)01:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know which is more correct. When Cruijff is his true surname and also some English sources name him as Cruijff, not Cruyff,but more Google points name him as Cruyff, ratherthan Cruijff. BTW I want to know --82.139.5.13 (talk)21:32, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Has it been concluded that there are no reliable career statistics for cruyff? It seems such a shame (and strange) that we have a full range of stats for other past greats of the game like Di Stefano, yet none for cruyff!— Precedingunsigned comment added byBuffalo mozzarella (talk •contribs)23:28, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
i'm nominating for GA since the revscore indicates FAhttps://ores.wmflabs.org/scores/enwiki/wp10/711726626/ --Duckduckstop (talk)17:48, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That quotation in a box should be removed. It is not from the King himself but from a spurious twitter account impersonating him.— Precedingunsigned comment added by145.53.116.217 (talk)17:57, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see it has been replaced by a genuine one now. Thanks for the correction.
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The FIFA website says that Cruyff died peacefully. Please add that.Uskor04 (talk)11:21, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please providereliable sources that support the change you want to be made.clpo13(talk)19:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]Cruijf was known for many quotes, not all can be traced though, so I do not know if these were originally by him, but he certainly made them famous:
Although Cruijff is almost a religious figure to soccer fans, he was certainly a character, and as I recollect, the first full time professional soccer player in the Netherlands.JHvW07:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Someone lock please.Lionel Kane (talk)03:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at thenomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk)00:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that substantial parts of the article, especially in the lead, are removed seemingly without a proper argument or discussion on this page. It is in my opinion quite weird that the article suddenly is almost half of what it previously was. What happened?P.C. Hooft (talk)18:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone provide a reliable citation for Cruyff's appointments as Knight and Officer of the Order of Orange-Nassau please?OGBC1992 (talk)09:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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His total number of goals scored at Barcelona is a lot more than “(48)”. Please updateChaunceytheguy (talk)09:14, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a"change X to Y" format and provide areliable source if appropriate.M.Bitton (talk)15:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] | Thisedit request has been answered. Set the|answered= parameter tono to reactivate your request. |
I need to add this photo of how he looked 6 years before he died.https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Johan_Cruijff_golfer_cropped.jpg#mw-jump-to-license200.68.173.80 (talk)19:23, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not done for now: please establish aconsensus for this alterationbefore using the{{Edit semi-protected}} template. Most biographical articles of deceased persons use a photo from their most notable time of their life, rather than the chronologically latest photo. That's not a hard and fast guideinle, but I think it should be discussed before simply making the change.PianoDan (talk)22:22, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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In the last sentence of the Personal life section, please change "their son Maxim Gullit plays for Cambuur" to "their son Maxim Gullit was a professional footballer who last played for Cambuur" as he retired almost two years ago. Sources:"Maxim Gullit Profile"."Maxim Gullit".~2025-33363-83 (talk)06:10, 30 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This article is a somewhat mixed bag. Partly Hagiography, partly very detailled, partly stub. All controversies in his life (leaving Ajax, Nunez, manifold squabbles with former friends, teammates and managers) completely left out. Although there are many reputable sources by acclaimed writers (Winner, Wilson, Kuper, Lowe, Bollen, among others) references are mainly Internet sources. To add on this, so much is written about his personal achievements, but the essentials are missing: His true impact on modern football (or soccer, if you are in the US). I will change this.Michael G. Lind (talk)12:40, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
