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"Jewish secularism comprises thoseJewish people who are secular and the body of work produced bysecular Jews."
Repetitive, circular, and confusing with regards meaning IMHO. Patently obvious also if one knows what a secular Jew is. If a reader is forced to click on anysecular link so early on then it breaks the read. Many people know the word's meaning as "separation of religion from state" but it becomes awkward when it is the religious contingent itself that is "secular". I suggest we parenthesise "(not radically religious)" or something to that effect after the second mention of "secular" and I believe this will improve the coherence of the text. --Coldtrack (talk)20:21, 14 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Coldtrack:, indeed. The article was a "nomenclatural chaos", as aptly put by the source I just added. It mixes (and in its defence, so does the common discourse) the influence ofsecularization upon Jews, which is universal; somewhat-secularized Jews, who are 90% of all worldwide; and generalsecularism among Jews, which may be espoused by American rabbis in favour of the establishment clause. All these are distinct fromJewish secularism, which refers to stuff likeCultural Zionism, theYiddishist movement orHumanistic Judaism.AddMore-III (talk)08:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Unbelievable how long it's been! Over three years and I had forgotten about this. I'm not what you call a nostalgic for my own older contributions! :))))) I am glad you can see that I was making some sense. The best way is always to clarify on the article. I don't doubt the sources and the points raised, only the way it was being told so early on. Thanks for the source you added. --Coldtrack (talk)17:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it appropriate to label Secularism as itsown distinct Jewish movement? Secularism could be seen as a branch of Orthodox or Reform Judasim. Like within Orthodoxy, you have the Ultra-Orthodox and Modern Orthodox. But Secularism can also be associated as a type of Orthodox, being labeled as Secular Orthodox. Let's say a Secular Jew attends a synagogue service once a year, or once every ten years. When they attend a service, a sizable number will attend an Orthodox Synagogue where men and women are seated separately, and where only men are designated as rabbis and cantors. The article doesn't distinguish whether Secular Jews are associated with Orthodox Judaism or perhaps another Jewish movement like Reform. In Israel as an example, the vast majority of Secular Jews identify with Orthodox ideals. Less than 10% of Israeli Jews are Reform. Thoughts anyone?RFKjunior22 (talk)20:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Hebrew article from which parts of this article seem to be taken, is really about Jewish secular nationalism and Zionism. This article, so far is a somewhat good essay on the thinking ofAchad Haam about Judaism and about the Jewish people. ButAchad Haam, even though a harsh critic of the nascent national movement that called itself Zionism, never completely removed himself from it. He was always more concerned with the Jewish people and the Jewish tradition and Jewish culture than with the nascent Jewish state. For him, peoplehood and the people's culture were always more important than statehood. But he did not altogether deny the validity of the aspirations toward statehood. He did not remove himself from theYishuv that would eventually be the basis of the state that emerged.
One of the most important followers ofAchad Haam's thinking, Mordecai M. Kaplan, who is also extensively quoted in the Hebrew article, also joined the state for the final years of his life. The inter-relationship and the thin boundaries separating "Jewish secularism" from Jewish nationalism and Zionism still have to be thought through in the article as it is developing here.warshy(¥¥)23:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
warshy, in case you haven't noticed, there's a large "This article may be expanded with text translated from the corresponding article in Hebrew" template at the top. The article over there, which I occassionally translate from, was written by none other than myself. I do not understand why you reverted a random edit, rather than merely deleting everything, but whatever. Write the article yourself or stop interrupting me.AddMore-III (talk)19:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
AddMore-III I had looked at the article over there before writing my comments above. I don't edit a lot over there, so I am not completely familiar with the guidances and procedures over there, but here, on English WP, text that is added must be backed up by references to reliable sources. Everything you added here is unsourced and unreferenced. I will mark all these paragraphs as such, and we will proceed from here. Thank you,warshy(¥¥)20:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If there are, and I don't remember since I did not spend a lot of time then on the issue, they will eventually need to be transferred to here too. In any case, time permitting I will start editing more seriosly here. دYou are mistaken in your note aboutHaskalah below. There is a direct link between Haskalah and Jewish Secularism. Ahad Haam, who was the first serious proponent of Jewish Secularism was to begin with aMaskil. He combined what he had learned from Haskalah with the nascent Jewish Nationalism he saw around. But everthing I eventually do put here will be sourced. Thank you,warshy(¥¥)22:05, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article in its current version does not mention theHaskalah at all, as really the origin of secular ideas in Judaism. I am not adding this myself at the moment because I want these mentions to be based inWP:RS, but I don't have time at the moment to select the best sources for these connections. Thank you,warshy(¥¥)21:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TheHaskalah is mentioned, and you're wrong in your claim. It mainly anticipated religious reform (which is itself a form of secularisation). Secularism proper was mainly a product of the Renaissance era, nationalism and the like.AddMore-III (talk)21:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is currently no mention at all of the wordHaskalah. And withoutHaskalah there would not have been Jewish Secularism and Jewish Nationalism, which are also directly related. All this will need to be fixed, but I will have to select the sources first. It is a worthy project, but it is also a lot of time. So we'll have to see how much time I can devote to it. Thank you,warshy(¥¥)22:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Much of the text sounds critical or condescendent towards Jewish secularism, with a clear affection for religious Judaism. This is unappropriate for any encyclopedic article.
A connected observation: W/o going through the art. history, it seems that there was one (or a few) main contributor/s, who wrote a well-structured and high-level material, but possibly introduced this POV, or maybe it was the work of an equally erudite editor who reworked it. This single, well-versed "old hand" aspect seems visible also in the lack of inline sources, less accepted lately. Maybe the article is even based on an external one, written by professional scholars?
The redirectSecular Jewish culture has been listed atredirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets theredirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect atWikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 4 § Secular Jewish culture until a consensus is reached.Place Clichy (talk)21:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
