Talk:Instinct
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Does anyone know how an instinct is passed on from generation to generation? What is the physiological mechanism for this to occur?
We know that certain traits are passed on genetically. Are instincts also passed on this way, through the DNA?
For example, how do babies know to look for and suck on the nipple of their mothers? Obviously no one taught them that. Then how do they know?
Have humans found this out yet or not?
Thanks.202.165.255.1817:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There is enormous debate, it seems, between established science and psychologists as to whether instinct in humans actually exists. I am trying to research the subject for an up-and-coming book and need to find some good examples of true human instincts that have survived the passage of time, but which now have little or no real bearing in modern life. If anyone can help with this I will be very grateful, particularly if the theory is backed up with credible research references or published science papers.
That book's from 1906! Surely instincts must bear some relation to the definition of what defines an organism: nutrition, excretion, respiration, reproduction, growth, movement, sensitivity (=response to stimuli).I'm not a psychologist, but I do recognise that it's not purely opinion like in history or art criticism; researchers may have prejudices, but experiments still have to be objective even if results are used to support a particular premiss.
What I think the danger is, is that people regard instinct as an emotional thing. It's probably more useful to regard organisms, whether bacteria or human, as agglomerations of chemicals in a physical universe that act and react in unison.We don't expect an atom, or for that matter a protein, to have any particular motivation to sustain itself or reproduce; so for me, I would expect instinct to be based on some irresistable, involuntary reaction (knowing, as I do, that chemical reactions are large scale physical reactions of electrons and other particles).So I propose that instinct may be a chain reaction at a sub-molecular level, that, at a higher level seems like an involuntary response: like swallowing, coughing, sneezing, shivering, breathing, sweating (or farting, in my case!).
The brain is extremely complex so it is no surprise that there is debate. But to deny instinct outright seems absurd. Fear is tied in with instinct. The instinct to run away, hesitate or to kill. The fact that we can override our instincts or that they can even be tied into our higher brain functions complicates matters immensely. For example, we have a survival instinct and it has been confirmed that some people for one biological reason or another have an absent or reduced sense of danger. Yet our sense of danger can be both learnt and apparently innate (common phobias). You can learn what are sharp objects and to fear them. Your brain can even work out to trigger a fear response in a novel situation.
I just found this source. It appears to be of use. I'm just walking out the door, but I plan on working on the article upon my return. Figured I'd provide you all with this source, since the article is now COTW.
-Cobra Ky
(talk,contribs)21:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
(talk,contribs)21:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]Friedrich Nietzsche and his philosophy of the"will to power" may deserve minor inclusion as well. -Cobra Ky (talk,contribs)21:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
My interest in instinct lies not with how academics would prefer to categorize certain human behaviors, such as recoiling from a snake, but rather with the poorly explained behavioral predispositions that many animals possess (including a select few human tendencies, such as a documented, innate fear of falling/heights). I cannot do much in the way of improvements myself, but I feel this article is SOREly lacking in breadth.
I also deem the first question of this discussion to be most provocative, as I've been trying to find a way to reconcile Darwin and Larmarck, Baldwin for a while now. I haven't found a comprehensive answer to any of the lingering questions regarding the behavioral tendiencies of an organism that are not learned but seemingly can't possibly have been transferred via genetic material not affected by direct influence of the parent's experience. The teat-suckling may be a poor example of this. A better one may be the rats that become generationally better at solving a maze, a universal fear of predatory species, or certain simians' talents for using tools to obtain food. Studies of a culture of lactose-intolerant E Coli that quickly adapted so as to tolerate lactose may not be completely germane, but are worth note.
The genetic component of the behaviour becomes very clear in the nesting behaviour of hybrids, which is a totally erratic non functional mixture of the parent species behaviours.
The pathway between DNA and these elaborate behavior patterns is one of the big challenges for science, at least for me it is not easy to conceive such a direct relation with proteins produced in certain braincells and the subsequent subtle changes in behaviour.Viridiflavus (talk)21:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm (instintively!) not really very happy with this sentence...
Instinct provides a response to external stimuli, which moves an organism to action,unless overridden by intelligence, which is creative and more versatile
I just think there's a presupposition that intelligence is superior to instinct, and I'd like to see this statement qualified in some way, because it sounds subjective to me.
My question is, is it possible for instinct to over-ride intelligence; or is intelligence driven subliminally by instincts?
For example: Does a human suppress their urge to act upon the instinct to mate or attack; or are there are spectrum of instincts at play, such as the instinct to form a group and not to compromise the values of the group so as to be ostracised (i.e. as a sex pest, or violent criminal)?
I'm personally trying to find credible sources to put the case that there are several instincts in a hierarchy, but interlinked.The instinct to survive must be the top one, then you may have sub-instincts such as: competition, territorialism, procreation, QoL-seeking, learning, and group-forming; and they all interact to check each other, essentiall ensuring that the top ones of survival and reproduction are not compromised. It might then make sense to say that behaviour that conflicts with instincts are maladaptive, rather than advanced and overriding.
Regardless of whether I do find credible sources that do support this thought, there needs to be more referenced and qualified material in this piece, so that there isn't the whiff of a-priori supposition.
It takes one to know one19:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Promsan[reply]
In the introduction, one can read:
In the "overview" section on the other hand, it is written that:
Could someone fix this? Is sex drive an instinct or not? Also, it seems to me that the article could do with a lot more sources, especially in the intro and the overview (which also states that "humans as a matter of speaking have no instincts past the early stages of infancy" without providing a reference).IronChris |(talk)21:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060728103827.htm
(Too many pyschologists spout on this subject without being aware of the neurochemistry and physical processes that go on, never mind philosophers!)it takes one to know one87.112.85.221:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Does the term "habit" ONLY apply to instinctive behavior or can it apply to repeated, learned behavior that is characteristic of on individual, but not another? I am trying to clarify some articles in WP and Wiktionary.DCDuring02:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Habit refers not to instinct but to learned behaviour, if not always, then mostly. please read a basic experimental psychology textbook before you go around writing articles for public consumption. -unsigned—Precedingunsigned comment added by131.111.190.182 (talk)17:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Innate emotions, which can be expressed in more flexible ways and learned patterns of responses, not instincts, form a basis for majority of responses to external stimuli inevolutionary higher species, while in case ofhighest evolved species both of them are overridden by actions based on cognitive processes with more or less intelligence and creativity or even trans-intellectual intuition."
1, any discussion about "higher" and "lower" species doesn't really make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint. it implies that evolution moves towards increased complexity as an overarching goal in itself. this is, of course, hogwash. and what is a "trans-intellectual intuition" and how do "innate emotions" differ from instinctual predisposition?
2, is there a good basis to the claim that learned behaviour forms the basis for a majority of responses in complex animals? the little I've read on the issue seems to suggest that the distinction between learned behaviour and instinctual behaviour is blurred at best.
the part of the article under Definitions deals primarily with one very strict definition of the term, which is good, but any working definition isn't made clear in this sentence. I am removing it until someone can provide sources that justify keeping it.Neebe (talk)15:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the article looks a lot better to me now, though I don't really know enough about the topic to comment on the finer aspects of it. at least there's little in the opening that stands out to me as being obviously wrong or confused now.Neebe (talk)23:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just did some minor copy editing and added some links, but this page needs a lot of work. The entire section on human behavior looks like original research, and is completing lacking in citations. It looks like a lot of the discussion here has centered on definitions and opinions around instinct instead of finding useful sources on instinct. Does anyone have any books or articles on the subject? That would probably go a long way toward clearing up a lot of the issues. --Aaron.t.phillips (talk)21:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This argument as used by sociologists is false when it is used to exclude humans from having instincts, because a goose busy with rolling an egg back in the nest will probably fly off if the scientist suddenly runs towards the nest.Viridiflavus (talk)02:21, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here the article is quite inconsistent, because we have moved away from the definition of instinct in the first part of the article, (released fixed action patterns). I would consider it better to name things as aggression during riots or the human courtship rituals with the accompanying fixed action patterns etc. I think "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris gives great examples of that. Especialy when we use a defitition that is a little broader, the innate ability and disposition to imitate language that causes little children in a sensitive period to pick up and imitate the sounds around them are not different from a bird picking up a song.Viridiflavus (talk)02:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An innate behabiour is not necesary an instict, and a reflex is definitely not an instict. English is not my primary language, can someone check that out? Look forKonrad Lorenz.
--Lmalena (talk)13:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The picture of the turtle needs a caption. I'd add it myself, but I don't know how.Omc (talk)20:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to rewrite the "Sociobiology" section, because it appears to be slightly misinformed, ignorant of current literature, and completely uncited. However, is a separate section for sociobiology even necessary here? If anything, the biology section could be expanded slightly to encompass whatever relevant information might otherwise be put under sociobiology. Any thoughts?
Ringtail Jack 02:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)— Precedingunsigned comment added byRingtail Jack (talk •contribs)
I have removed this passage:"other efforts at self destruction such as tobacco consumption and the self abusive consumption of unhealthy foods."
These behaviours (efforts) might result in an early death, but not one that precedes the typical time required to breed and raise children. In such cases dying early may in fact be beneficial, to free resources for offspring. Basically, it isn't certain that they threaten genetic survival at all or in any significant way.
Additionally, it could be argued that the reason people engage in those particular behaviours is a result of their instincts making false positives. For example, people eat unhealthy food not because they decide to eat unhealthy food but because their sensory system mistakes it for healthy food and their survival instinct compels them to eat more of it. In that sense it does not only mean that survival instinct is being overridden or is absent. A third possibility is that instincts are fallible.
Back on point, the reason that tobacco and unhealthy food consumption do not contradict survival instinct is because survival instinct is not an instinct to live forever or as long as is possible. It is an instinct or drive to live long enough to successfully reproduce. Anything beyond that is a random aberration.
A careful eye must be kept out in future for such biases, inserted by people wishing to subtly promote an agenda.
Large parts of this article are unreadable. In particular the second paragraph of the “Overview” section looks unsalvageable. Besides the lack of any grammar, there are also no citations and the POV is far from neutral. My instinct (no pun intended) is to delete the entire paragraph, but as I'm new here I don't want to jump in feet first with a potentially controversial edit. So I've tagged the article as “multiple issues” hoping that someone more experienced will share their opinion.JRYon (talk)16:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to the aforementioned cleanups, the article does not provide what I have come to expect from a Wikipedia article of such a commonly used term. I came to this article hoping to be able to jump to the History section and find out when the term came into being, and instead found no dates outside the late 20th century. Judging from the introduction and the history, I suspect that this article has been written as some sort of joke by anti-Darwinists. The article has nothing to say about instinct itself, but rather chooses to purport every possible alternative to the subject. If I had the power to do so, I would delete the entire article. I am of the opinion that it is a sham.— Precedingunsigned comment added byTenacidteas (talk •contribs)18:51, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above comments that this article is difficult to follow. One thing that stood out to me was organization, as I am confused about why "In Animal Biology" and "In Humans" are in separate sections. I am thinking about changing the organization to be "Early Theorists" instead of history, with each of the mentioned psychologists getting a subsection (I also think any historical figure who is mentioned should be follow by an explanation as to why they are relevant to the topic of instinct. There are a lot of people talked about, so maybe the article can focus on a few in detail instead of having a bunch of different people). Then, maybe there could be a section which discusses more recent research about what is currently established with animal biology, followed by another section about human instincts. I am hoping that if these proposed sections are detailed enough, they will address the information in the sections "reflexes", "maturational", and "in evolution" so those topics do not have to stand alone.Classic Bee (talk)05:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I know that this isn't the place to debate the issues or raise questions but it is a place where judicial editing or comment can at least put things in one perspective or another. At present the opinions of some authors (eg Maslow) that instinct cannot be over-ridden or changed seem to be given the status of wide acceptance. Is this the case? Maslow's follow-on conclusion that humans therefore no longer have instincts seems outdated. Humans are animals; if animals have instincts why don't humans (presuming we're all on the science page rather than the faith page)? Instincts are presumably hard-wired responses to the environment that enable the organism to survive at a time before learning has had time to kick in (I know, not all instincts can be explained in this way but it does to be a reasonable case for instincts). It would seem as though Maslow and others are merely trying to reduce the idea to something very close to a reflex. Going away from Maslow, could it not be argued that humans can overcome instinct (this possibility would seem to be a biological advantage) which might bring items like the survival instinct back into play. In other words, our hard-coding is available for early survival but can be abandoned/over-ridden as needed.
Sorry. Probably not a discussion that should happen here.--174.7.56.10 (talk)22:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The last paragraph of the intro needs considerable work. This is a weird subject that does not really have an answer, but the last paragraph of the intro is a mess. It starts with elephants and ends up with zoo cats. I won't touch it because I have no expertise in the field, I was coming for some briefing and saw that paragraph and felt like this needed to be said, that is why it needs to be fixed.— Precedingunsigned comment added by71.196.150.48 (talk)19:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
and instincts are not really there— Precedingunsigned comment added by37.190.38.62 (talk)22:10, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In the "In Psychology" section, Abraham Maslow is quoted as saying two contradictory things:
humans no longer have instincts because we have the ability to override them in certain situations.andan instinct is something which cannot be overridden
How can humans override instincts if an instinct is something which cannot be overridden? Either Maslow has said this and missed the contradiction (which means maybe there should be a contrasting opinion shown) or this article has confused something. Maybe it's trying to imply that instincts are present in animals but humans have an extra ability to override them, but that doesn't mean thathumans no longer have instincts, it means that we're good at suppressing them sometimes. But it seems this is suggesting that suppressing instincts is a better, more evolved way of being. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this guy's opinion should be shown for what it is because I feel like the discussion of it is missing something.
It could be that the contradictory quotes are the sign that his whole argument is flawed from the moment he saidhumans no longer have instincts, but that's just my personal opinion.— Precedingunsigned comment added byMhbenn (talk •contribs)01:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I read the article. There is absolutely zero discussion about instincts in humans. Either the redirect should be deleted or information on human instincts should be put in. It's an improper redirect as it is.Xanikk999 (talk)—Precedingundated comment added23:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at thenomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk)16:36, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Chjoaygame: - Regarding your revert[1] -debate on it is found in the body of the article with citations.
- where exactly in the body of the article is this addressed?BecomeFree (talk)14:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How the fuck does this article not mention hunger as an instinct?
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between20 January 2022 and6 May 2022. Further details are availableon the course page. Student editor(s):Classic Bee (article contribs).
The first paragraph says: "Instinct [...] [contains] both innate (inborn) and learned elements".Then the second one says: "Any behaviour is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience (that is, in the absence of learning)".This is contradictory. If a behaviour must meet the condition of being unlearned to be calledinstinct, as the second paragraph says, then the first paragraph is wrong, and viceversa.2806:2F0:41A1:5D00:A8D1:E8B3:B02A:2F7B (talk)17:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
