Oral history interview with Linus C. Pauling
- 1987-Apr-06
Oral history interview with Linus C. Pauling
- 1987-Apr-06
Linus Pauling begins this interview by describing his early interest in science. While growing up in Portland, Oregon, he collected laboratory equipment and carried out chemistry experiments in his home. He also worked in the chemistry laboratory of his high school. Pauling supported himself through his undergraduate years at Oregon State Agricultural College by working in the chemistry department stockroom and assisting an engineering professor. During graduate school at Caltech, he learned x-ray crystallography from Roscoe Dickinson and published his first paper. Pauling continued to use crystallography to attack more complex chemical problems. In 1926, Pauling was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship to study in Europe. In Zurich, he carried out research on the interaction of two helium atoms which later led him to develop the theory of the three-electron bond. Pauling concludes this interview with his return to Caltech as assistant professor of chemistry.
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About the Interviewer
Jeffrey L. Sturchio is president and CEO of the Global Health Council. Previously he served as vice president of corporate responsibility at Merck & Co., president of the Merck Company Foundation, and chairman of the U.S. Corporate Council on Africa. Sturchio is currently a visiting scholar at the Institute for Applied Economics and the Study of Business Enterprise at Johns Hopkins University and a member of the Global Agenda Council on the Healthy Next Generation of the World Economic Forum. He received an AB in history from Princeton University and a PhD in the history and sociology of science from the University of Pennsylvania.
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| Oral history number | 0067 |
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Interviewee biographical information
| Born |
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| Died |
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Education
| Year | Institution | Degree | Discipline |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1922 | Oregon State College | BS | Chemical Engineering |
| 1925 | California Institute of Technology | PhD | Physical Chemistry and Mathematical Physics |
Professional Experience
California Institute of Technology
- 1922 to 1925Teaching Fellow
- 1923 to 1927Research Associate
- 1927 to 1929Assistant Professor
- 1929 to 1931Associate Professor
- 1931 to 1964Professor
- 1936 to 1958Chairman, Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering
- 1936 to 1958Director, Gates and Crellin Chemical Laboratories
- 1945 to 1948Member, Executive Committee, Board of Trustees
- 1963 to 1967Research Professor, Center for Study of Democratic Institutions
National Research Council (U.S.)
- 1925 to 1926Fellow
Universität München
- 1926 to 1927Guggenheim Fellow, Universities of Munich, Zurich, and Copenhagen
University of California, San Diego
- 1967 to 1969Professor of Chemistry
Stanford University
- 1969 to 1974Professor of Chemistry
- 1974 to 1988Professor Emeritus
Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine
- 1973 to 1975President
- 1973 to 1988Research Professor
- 1978 to 1979President
Honors
| Year(s) | Award |
|---|---|
| 1931 | Langmuir Prize, American Chemical Society |
| 1941 | Nichols Medal, New York Section, American Chemical Society |
| 1947 | Davy Medal, Royal Society |
| 1948 | United States Presidential Medal for Merit |
| 1952 | Pasteur Medal, Biochemical Society of France |
| 1954 | Nobel Prize, Chemistry |
| 1955 | Addis Medal, National Nephrosis Foundation |
| 1955 | Phillips Memorial Award, American College of Physicians |
| 1956 | Avogadro Medal, Italian Academy of Science |
| 1957 | Paul Sabatier Medal |
| 1957 | Pierre Fermat Medal in Mathematics |
| 1957 | International Grotius Medal |
| 1963 | Nobel Peace Prize |
| 1965 | Order of Merit, Republic of Italy |
| 1965 | Medal, Academy of the Rumanian People's Republic |
| 1966 | Linus Pauling Medal |
| 1966 | Silver Medal, Institute of France |
| 1966 | Supreme Peace Sponsor, World Fellowship of Religion |
| 1972 | United States National Medal of Science |
| 1972 | International Lenin Peace Prize |
| 1978 | Lomonosov Medal, USSR Academy of Science |
| 1979 | Medal for Chemical Sciences, National Academy of Science |
| 1984 | Priestley Medal, American Chemical Society |
| 1984 | Award for Chemistry, Arthur M. Sackler Foundation |
| 1987 | Award in Chemical Education, American Chemical Society |
| 1989 | Vannevar Bush Award, National Science Board |
| 1990 | Richard C. Tolman Medal, Southern California, Section, American Chemical Society |
Cite as
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Growing up in Portland, Oregon. Collects laboratory equipment and carries out first chemistry experiments. Sisters and brothers. Takes high school chemistry and works in the lab after school.
Begins with STURCHIO: You have written a number of articles on your early career and there certainly have been plenty of articles about you...
KeywordsBirthplaces•California Institute of Technology (Caltech)•Childhood•Corvallis, Oregon•Early interest in science•Elements of Greek•Emmett, Paul•Fathers•Gale, Henry•Grandparents•Green, William V.•Harvard University•High school•Hydrochloric acid•Jeffress, Lloyd Alexander•Millikan, Robert•Mothers•Nitric acid•North Pacific Dental College•Oregon State Agricultural College•Oswego, Oregon•Portland, Oregon•Potassium cyanide•Potassium permanganate•Reed College•Sisters•Smith, George M.•Stephenson, Mervyn•Sulfuric acid•University of Washington•Washington High School•Willamette Valley, Oregon
Chemistry textbooks, classes and independent study. Supports self through college. Applies to several graduate schools and accepts appointment at Caltech.
Begins with STURCHIO: Do you recall the other texts you were using when you got to college?
KeywordsAllen, Frederick J.•Beckman, Arnold O.•California Institute of Technology (Caltech)•Chemical Principles•Columbia University•Delta Upsilon fraternity•Differential and Integral Calculus•Eastman Kodak Company•Eli Lilly and Company•Emmett, Paul•Fulton, John•General Chemistry (A. Smith)•Graduate school•Graf, Samuel H.•Granville, William•Harvard University•Helmer, Oscar M.•Journal of Chemical Education•Journal of the American Chemical Society•Kendall, James•Lamb, Arthur B.•Langmuir, Irving•Lewis, Gilbert N.•MgAl2•MgCu2•Millard, Earl•Mothers•National Research Council•Noyes, Arthur A.•Oregon State Agricultural College•Purdue University•Richards, Theodore W.•Robertson, Alfred•Rowland, Floyd E.•Slip interference theory•Smith, Alexander•Stamford, Connecticut•Tuley, William F.•Undergraduate education•University of California, Berkeley•University of Illinois•Xenon difluoride•Xenon fluoride•Yost, Don
Learns x-ray crystallography from Roscoe Dickinson. Publishes first paper. Studies physical science with Richard C. Tolman. Mathematics. Personal interaction with faculty and students. Publishes series of papers with Dickinson. Studies quantum mechanics.
Begins with STURCHIO: You mentioned in one of your autobiographical articles...
KeywordsAnderson, Carl•Arroyo Seco, California•Atombau und Spektrallinien•Atomic Structure and Spectral Lines•Bateman, Henry•Bateman, Mrs.•Bell, E. T.•Benzene•Bohr theory•Born, Max•Brookite•Burdick, C. Lalor•CaHgBr4•California Institute of Technology (Caltech)•Chemische Krystallographie•Coachella Valley, California•Dickinson, Roscoe•Emmett, Paul•Europe•Ewald, Paul•Ewing, Fred•Fifty Years of X-Ray Diffraction•Graduate education•Guggenheim Fellowship•Hedirck, Raymond H.•Heisenberg, Werner K.•Jordan, P.•Journal of the American Chemical Society (JACS)•K2Ni2(SO4)3•Lewis, Gilbert N.•Lucas, Howard•Matrix mechanics•McMillan, Edwin•Mg2SN•Millikan, Robert•Modern Analysis•Mohler, F. L.•Molybdenite•Munich, Germany•NACd2•Naphthalene•National Academy of Sciences•National Research Council (NRC)•Nickel sulfate hexahydrate•Noyes, Arthur A.•Orange County, California•Origin of Spectra•Owen, E. A.•Owens Camp, California•Palm Springs, California•Paradowski, Bob•Pasadena, California•Pauli, Wolfgang•Pitzer, Kenneth S.•Potassium sulfate•Quantum mechanics•Robertson, Howard P.•Sommerfeld, Arnold•Sturdivant, Holmes•Tolman, Richard, C.•University of California, Berkeley•Walker, A. G.•Ward, Morgan•Watson, George N.•Whittaker, Edmund T.•Wiener, Norbert•Wives•Wulf, Oliver•Wyckoff, Ralph•X-ray crystallogrphy
Münich. Expands Gregor Wentzel's method to calculate properties of atoms and ions. Zürich. Works on problem of helium atom interaction. Studies wave mechanics. American friends.
Begins with STURCHIO: That showed you had continued to think about those questions that you mentioned earlier today...
KeywordsAbraham, Max•California Institute of Technology (Caltech)•Condon, Edward U.•Dayton, Ohio•Debye-Huckel theory•Dennison, David•Dickinson, Roscoe•Dielectric constants•Europe•Fajans, Kasimir•Franck, James•Guillemin, Ernst•Guillemin, Victor•Havighurst, Robert•Heitler, Walter•Helium•Langmuir, Irving•Lewis, Gilbert N.•London, Fritz•Munich, Germany•Noyes, Arthur A.•One-electron bond theory•Oppenheimer, Robert•Pasadena, California•Shrodinger, Erwin•Soddy, Frederick•Sommerfeld, Arnold•Three-electron bond theory•Tolman, Richard, C.•Van Vleck, John H.•Wentzel, Gregor•Wright Aeronautics Laboratory•X-ray crystallogrphy•Zeitschrift fur Physik•Zurich, Switzerland
Influence of A. A. Noyes. Becomes assistant professor of chemistry. Berkeley.
Begins with PAULING: Well, it was really a great experience, and A. A. Noyes engineered the whole thing.
KeywordsAydelotte, Frank•California Institute of Technology (Caltech)•Guggenheim Fellowship•Guggenheim Foundation•Lewis, Gilbert N.•Munich, Germany•National Research Council•Noyes, Arthur A.•Paradowski, Bob•Pasadena, California•Tolman, Richard, C.•University of California, Berkeley
00:00:00STURCHIO: You have written a number of articles on your early career and therecertainly have been plenty of articles about you, so from that we know some ofthe details of your early interest in science. [1] I know00:01:00you were born in Portland, Oregon on 28 February 1901, and that you went toOregon State Agricultural College, but I wonder if you would talk a little moreabout the origins of your interest in science. Why did you decide to studyscience at that age?
PAULING: Well, my father was a druggist, and I used to hang around the store. Hedied when I was nine years old, so he can't have had a very great effect on me.When I was eleven, I started collecting insects. So far as I can remember thiswas spontaneous, in that there was no one who suggested to me that I do it. Ithink I ran across a book about insects which interested me. And there were many00:02:00insects that one could find in the Willamette Valley. So I made a considerablecollection. I think it was left in the basement of the house when my mother diedand I was in Europe when my two sisters sold the house. The next year I becameinterested in rocks and minerals, mainly minerals. I got books on mineralogyfrom the library and copied tables out of the books before returning them. Aboutthe only minerals I could collect were agates. I did not know enough to findzeolites and didn't have instruments to permit me to identify small crystals. Soit was mainly reading about minerals and thinking about them that engrossed my00:03:00attention for a year. That was when I was twelve, my first year in high school.
Then when I was thirteen, my second year, Lloyd Alexander Jeffress, my age, andI, were walking home from Washington High School, when he asked if I would liketo come to his room and see some chemical experiments. So we went up to thesecond floor of his house which was at about 28th street. My house was on 40thstreet, so this was about halfway. And he carried out some experiments which Ifound extremely interesting. I think I hadn't thought about the fact that00:04:00substances can be converted into other substances. Combustion, the burning ofwood in the stove, I just accepted as part of the world. I hadn't thought aboutthe general phenomenon of conversion of one substance to another substance. (Thescience writer in the London Times has a rather vague idea about this also. Lastweek in London I read about a new substance that had surprising magneticproperties and the science writer described it by saying it was called Bipo, andit was made by taking a yellow substance which exploded to form a black powder.00:05:00That was it. That was all the chemical information that was given.) So, I begancarrying out experiments starting with a chemistry book that my father had.
STURCHIO: Do you know what book that was?
PAULING: I think Williams, but it got lost, left I guess when my mother died. Iam not sure about it. I can remember the book but not the title page.
STURCHIO: Were you using your friend's equipment, or did you start to get yourown equipment at that time?
PAULING: I started getting my own equipment, such as flasks and beakers. Therewas a druggist who had been a friend of my father's in Portland who gave me00:06:00chemicals. When I was eleven he gave me some potassium cyanide and some plasterof Paris. I had read about making a killing bottle. He gave me perhaps thirtygrams of potassium cyanide. I went home and got a mason jar and went out on theback porch because I knew it was poisonous. I put the potassium cyanide in thejar, and put some water on the plaster of Paris, and put that in on top of itand made my killing bottle. So he gave me chemicals and some pieces ofapparatus. A man living next door had been a photographer and a guide on MountHood and was retired. He was working as the stockroom keeper at North Pacific00:07:00Dental College. He brought home many pieces of glassware for me. They had beenchipped so that they would have been discarded, and he brought them for me.
My grandfather was a night watchman in the foundry in Oswego. I would go theseven miles to Oswego on the train. It was usually every week, going Saturday tosee my grandparents and coming back Sunday. I could go down with him or withouthim. Actually, I went to the smelter, which was abandoned, and was about aquarter mile away from the foundry. The smelter was a wooden structure that wasfalling down. The roof of the laboratory had fallen in. There were hundreds of00:08:00bottles of ore samples and bottles of chemicals. So I would take a suitcase andfill the suitcase with bottles of chemicals, get on the train, take them back toPortland, get on the street car, and go up two miles to my home. For example,there was a two and half liter bottle of sulfuric acid and similar bottles ofnitric acid and hydrochloric acid. The sulfuric acid was black. I suppose it hadbeen opened and a little organic material had fallen in and been dehydrated.There was a big bottle of potassium permanganate. It was really great to havethese chemicals.
STURCHIO: Were other friends of yours interested in science at that time?
PAULING: Well, I saw a good bit of Lloyd Jeffress, but we didn't do any more00:09:00chemical experiments together. We were together at his country home which wasclose by, or at my grandmother's house. He became professor of psychology at theUniversity of Texas and died a few years ago. He was a psychologist all right.When we were about fifteen, and he was with me at my grandmother's home, mygrandmother said, "Linus, what are you going to be when you grow up?" I said, "Iam going to be a chemical engineer." And Lloyd said, "No, he isn't. He is goingto be a professor." I had no expectation of being a professor. I thought I wouldbe a chemical engineer.
STURCHIO: You mention in one of your articles that at that time you thought thata chemical engineer was the profession somebody interested in chemistryfollowed. [1] Why was that?
00:10:00PAULING: I didn't have much knowledge about professions. I did know aboutengineering and chemical engineering, because I had a cousin, Mervyn Stephenson,who was studying highway engineering at Oregon Agricultural College, and I knewthat they taught chemical engineering. So I thought that was the profession.
STURCHIO: Did you have brothers and sisters?
PAULING: Two sisters. One is a year and a half younger, the other three yearsyounger than I. They're both alive. [The younger one died in 1992.]
STURCHIO: Were they interested in science at all?
PAULING: No. The elder later in life married Paul Emmett. So I think she had00:11:00much more contact with Paul Emmett than she had with me. After I went to collegeat age sixteen I didn't see my sisters very much.
STURCHIO: Basically she had a secondary interest in science. So the fact thatyour cousin Mervyn Stephenson was at Oregon Agricultural College studyingengineering is probably an important factor that led you in that direction.
PAULING: Yes. Well, we didn't have any money. Oregon Agricultural College wasthe only place I could have gone, I think. I drove on my bicycle two milesacross the east side of Portland to Reed College a few months before I went toCorvallis. I knew about Reed College and was sort of interested in it. I drove00:12:00around the campus, but that was all. I didn't go in, and I didn't see anybody orspeak to anybody. But I probably couldn't have gone to Reed because of thetuition, even though I could have lived at home then. But I just didn't knowthat at the University of Oregon I could have majored in chemistry, or that Icould have majored in chemistry at Reed College. But it wasn't too bad to go toOregon Agricultural College.
The main way in which I suffered scientifically, I suppose, is that for fouryears I had no courses in mathematics. I took all the mathematics in my freshmanyear. I had had four years of mathematics in high school. So I could take00:13:00sophomore mathematics in my freshman year and then they didn't teach any moremath courses. And I taught full time for one year, which is why I say for fouryears. When I got to CIT [California Institute of Technology] of course I signedup for many mathematics courses. For a while I thought, because of faultymemory, that I had a minor in mathematics as well as a minor in physics at CIT.But in fact, I found my diploma which says physical chemistry and mathematicalphysics. They made it mathematical physics.
STURCHIO: I wanted to ask you a little more about the atmosphere you found when00:14:00you got to Caltech in 1922. But first, do you recall the textbook you used whenyou taught quantitative analysis back in Oregon about 1919?
PAULING: It was written by George M. Smith in the Midwest who then became aprofessor at the University of Washington in Seattle. [2]I wrote a letter to him complaining about a statement that I said I thought wasnot true or misleading. He wrote back.
STURCHIO: Was he an analytical chemist?
PAULING: That was quantitative analysis.
00:15:00STURCHIO: By the time you got to college in Oregon you already had a fairly goodbackground in traditional methods of chemistry, just from your own investigations.
PAULING: Well, my junior year in high school I took chemistry from William V.Green, who I think had a master's degree from Harvard. He was a very goodteacher. He had me stay after school hours (I think 2:30 is when my schoolstopped) and help him to run bomb calorimeter measurements of the heat value of00:16:00oil and coal that was bought by the Portland school district. I think it wasprobably largely as a way of giving me a little extra instruction. And when Igot my high school transcript I had an extra year, I believe (or perhaps only asemester) of high school chemistry. After finishing the one year he allowed meto come in the laboratory and he gave me problems. There were some organicpreparations that I carried out using Remson. [3] Ispilled some sulfuric acid on the book, and I think I still have it with pageseaten away by acid.
And there was analytical chemistry, qualitative analysis. I remember this00:17:00because he gave me an unknown and said that I should remember the words "hoiholoi strategoi" and tell him when I reported to him. I hadn't started studyingGreek yet. About that time, I did decide to study Greek and got a Greek book andlearned some Greek from it. It was [John] White's Elements of Greek. [4] So I learned later "hoi holoi strategoi" meant "allthe soldiers". He had put all of the metals into the sample.
STURCHIO: You were very lucky to come across somebody with that kind of abackground in high school.
00:18:00PAULING: Yes. I had a one semester course in physics with a very good physicsteacher too. He was a smart fellow. We used [Robert] Millikan and [Henry] Galeas the textbook for high school physics. [5]
STURCHIO: Do you recall the other texts you were using when you got to college?
PAULING: There was [William] Granville's Differential and IntegralCalculus. [6] At some stage I used Alexander Smith'sGeneral Chemistry. [7] Maybe it was Smith and Kendall.[James] Kendall was at Columbia for a while, where Alexander Smith was, and then00:19:00went back to Scotland. I liked Alexander Smith's big book. I am not sure I everhad it as a textbook in chemistry. It may be that somebody gave me a copy. FromAlexander Smith's freshman chemistry text I got the word "stochastic." In mypapers I quoted several sentences from Alexander Smith's General Chemistry. Iused it when I said that the method that I am using to find the crystal00:20:00structure of a substance is the stochastic method, from the Greek"stochastikos", apt to divine the truth by conjecture. And Alexander Smith wenton to say that you make this stochastic hypothesis, (for example, that asubstance is a hexahydrate) and then you can immediately test the hypothesis bycarrying out an analysis. In this case you had to remove the water to find howmuch water was present. He may have given a better example than that, but Ithink I am now confabulating.
STURCHIO: While you were in college was there much contact in the curriculumwith physical and theoretical chemistry? You mentioned in some of your earlierpapers how you stumbled across [Gilbert N.] Lewis and [Irving] Langmuir in thejournals while you were studying. [1] Was that entirely extracurricular?
00:21:00PAULING: Yes. I had one year of very simple organic chemistry. That is all Ihad. I've forgotten the writer of the textbook that we used. I had a year ofphysical chemistry with [Earl] Millard as the text. I am not sure that is right,but he was at MIT. [8] [Arthur A.] Noyes had a very pooropinion of the book, so he sent to me and Paul Emmett, in the beginning of thesummer of 1922, proof sheets of the first nine chapters of Noyes and [Miles]00:22:00Sherrill's Chemical Principles, which was then available in the printed form inthe fall/ [9] He asked us to work the problems from allnine chapters during the summer, in order to make up for the deficiency in ourphysical chemistry.
The physical chemistry book that we had used was essentially a cookbook thatwould give equations without saying clearly where they came from, and you justsubstituted in numbers. It was taught by Frederick J. Allen, who later got hisPh.D. at Purdue. He has said that this course was the only course in physicalchemistry that he ever gave, and it was hardly his field. He got his Ph.D. at00:23:00Purdue and remained there all his life and taught chemistry to footballstudents. He said that it was the football student's course in chemistry that hewas in charge of. When my general chemistry text came out he used it as thetextbook. [10] They wouldn't use it in the other coursebecause they thought it was too hard. But he used it with the football players!
They have all the correspondence between Fred and me over the years there atPurdue. Some of the letters have been published in the Journal of ChemicalEducation/ [11] There was correspondence about my idea00:24:00that we could make xenon fluoride. Freddy sent me 200 milliliters of gaseousxenon for the experiment. I wasn't the experimenter. I got Don Yost to try tomake it, and he reported that he didn't succeed. He had a nickel apparatus, andhe couldn't see inside it. The man who later made the xenon compounds in oneexperiment was shown in a photograph holding a Pyrex flask with crystals ofxenon difluoride. He said he was sure that Yost had made xenon difluoride, but00:25:00had failed to recognize that he had. I think he may have been measuring thechange in pressure but I don't remember just how the experiment was carried out.So Yost reported in a paper that you couldn't make xenon fluoride. [12]
STURCHIO: That's not the only example of that kind of report.
PAULING: Someone at CIT said that he thought this was about the mostunenthusiastic investigator who ever carried out an investigation. I judge thatDon did this just because I asked him to, but perhaps he was convinced that itwould be a failure.
STURCHIO: He missed a big discovery. I was interested in how you fixed on going00:26:00to Caltech. Was it just by Noyes's reputation, or did Allen suggest it?
PAULING: No, I don't remember discussing this matter with Allen. He perhaps hadgot a master's degree already at Purdue. He was about at that stage, a few yearsolder than I. When I was teaching quant full time, the head of the chemistrydepartment, John Fulton, showed me a little placard sent out from CIT offeringfellowships in chemistry to graduate students. He said that perhaps in two years00:27:00I ought to go there. I then thought that I perhaps ought to go next year for myjunior and senior years. So I wrote to A. A. Noyes, including a statement that Iwould have to make my own living. My mother did not have any money, and I wasgiving her the money I earned that year and other summers too. She had a hardtime after my father died. I got a letter back from Stuart Bates, saying that A.A. Noyes was not there. He pointed out that he thought it would be impossible00:28:00for me to attend CIT (it had just taken the name CIT in 1918, I think) and tosupport myself at the same time.
Well, I did it at Oregon State. When I was a freshman I worked at odd jobs inthe kitchen of the girls' dormitory, chopping wood for the wood stoves andcutting the sides of beef into steaks and roasts. When I was a sophomore thechemistry department gave me a job in the stockroom so I got enough money tolive on. In my freshman year I had a hard time. Then when I was a junior, the00:29:00professor of engineering, Sam [Samuel H.] Graf, gave me a job. I took the coursein metallography from him, and he may have given me the job during that firstsemester of my junior year. It seems to me I worked for two years for him andgot $25 dollars a month or 25 cents an hour for a hundred hours a month. Icorrected papers in the statics and dynamics course, bridge structure, strengthof materials, and helped him in the laboratory.
I took the course in metallography and enjoyed it and began thinking about00:30:00metals. I am pretty sure I still have the textbook we used, but I don't rememberits name. In this book they discussed the slip interference theory of hardening.The grain boundaries provide the slip interference. Little crystals of amagnesium-aluminum compound, MgAl2, or MgCu2 form and interfere with the slip inthe aluminum grains.
00:31:00So Johnny Fulton, who also loaned me some money, which I paid back after I gotto graduate school, suggested that I go to CIT. Well of course I was interestedin Berkeley, because of Lewis and the nature of the chemical bond. I applied toBerkeley, CIT, Illinois, and Harvard. There was a professor of chemicalengineering who had got his Ph.D. at Illinois named Floyd E. Rowland. He was anenthusiast about graduate work. He was one of the few people on the faculty atOregon Agricultural College who had a doctor's degree.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 1]
00:32:00PAULING: There were about twelve graduates in chemical engineering in the classof 1922. Because of his influence, largely, seven of them went on to graduatework. I think perhaps six of them got Ph.D. degrees.
STURCHIO: Did they go into chemistry as well, or into chemical engineering?
PAULING: They were all in chemistry. Well, one of them, I think, got a master'sdegree at Harvard, perhaps in metallurgy, and got a job with an iron and steelcompany. So perhaps he was more of a metallurgical engineer. I am not sure. I00:33:00think I saw him once many years later in Pittsburgh. Paul Emmett was one ofthem. Alfred Robertson had a National Research Council fellowship after gettinghis Ph.D. at Wisconsin. He worked most of his life for Eastman Kodak inindustrial chemistry. I don't know what he was doing in the photographicbusiness. Bill [William F.] Tuley got a Ph.D. at Illinois and worked for achemical company in Stamford, Connecticut. Oz [Oscar M.] Helmer worked in00:34:00medicinal chemistry at Eli Lilly after getting his Ph.D. I think there may havebeen one or two others. Well, chemical engineers were the smartest students inOregon Agricultural College.
STURCHIO: That's a remarkable record for 1922 to have that many.
PAULING: There were seven out of twelve chemical engineers from a small cowcollege who got a Ph.D. in chemistry.
When I gave some general university lectures at Berkeley about four years agothree members of the chemistry department came up to me to tell the same story,which I had never heard before. I think it is apocryphal. See, I didn't get a00:35:00reply to my application to Berkeley. Harvard offered me a half timeinstructorship and said it would take six years to get a Ph.D. So I turned it down.
STURCHIO: Was that from [Theodore W.] Richards? Did he write to you at that time?
PAULING: No. The editor of JACS [Journal of the American Chemical Society],Arthur B. Lamb, wrote to me. He was professor and director of the chemicallaboratories. I turned that down. And Noyes said that I should reply00:36:00immediately. In a few years there was much complaint about that sort of action.The chemistry departments decided that they should say that this offer is openuntil the first of April, so they could all have a chance. Well, I wrote toBerkeley saying that I had accepted the CIT appointment. The story is that G. N.Lewis was looking over the applications in the spring of 1922 and there weren'tvery many, perhaps twenty five. Departments were small, as I pointed out in mytalk today. So he came to one and looked at it, the story goes, and said, "LinusPauling, Oregon Agricultural College. I have never heard of that place." Anddown it went in the discard file.
00:37:00STURCHIO: It does sound apocryphal to me.
PAULING: I think it is apocryphal. Here I'd been around Berkeley for fifty yearsbefore I'd heard that story, so I'd surely have heard it earlier on.
STURCHIO: What did Illinois say? Did you go through with that application or didyou just withdraw it?
PAULING: I think I hadn't heard from them when I accepted the CIT offer. WellNoyes was pretty clever, I think, to pick Paul Emmett and me from OregonAgricultural College to offer fellowships to.
STURCHIO: It is interesting to note that had you gone to Illinois Arnold Beckmanwould have also been there.
00:38:00PAULING: I believe he came to CIT two years later, in 1924. But we arefraternity brothers in that he was in Delta Upsilon fraternity at Illinois and Iwas in Delta Upsilon fraternity at Oregon State, one of the founding members ofthe chapter. I said to him last year that I had decided that hisspectrophotometer was named DU because of his being a member of the DUfraternity. He said that wasn't so, that DU meant something but I don't remembernow what it is.
00:39:00STURCHIO: It was his fourth prototype model in ultraviolet. Of course itcertainly is an assumption that it was for Delta Upsilon. I wanted to ask you alittle later about some Arnold Beckman connections, but incidentally, he had avery similar introduction to chemistry. He had a high school teacher who had himdo analyses on the side of similar kinds of industrial applications, and he tooka course in metallography while he was still in high school, and then went on tostudy at Illinois. It is very interesting how you in Oregon and he in Illinoishad similar backgrounds at the time in chemistry.
Well, Caltech must have been a completely different environment from the OregonAgricultural College in Corvallis.
PAULING: Yes, indeed.
STURCHIO: You mentioned in one of your autobiographicalarticles, [1] about working the problems in Noyes and00:40:00Sherrill [9] over the summer and reading the Braggs' bookon X-rays and crystal structure. [13] Did that help bringyou up to speed when you got to Pasadena in the fall?
PAULING: Well, I suppose so. I don't remember very clearly. It didn't take mevery long to learn. Within three months I had been taught the technique ofdetermining the structure of crystals as it had been developed up to that time.In fact, I had studied fourteen crystals by the first of November or fifteenth00:41:00of November, which I had made in the laboratory. I looked up cubic crystals,since Roscoe Dickinson told me that cubic crystals were the ones that can beanalyzed, or hexagonal crystals or tetragonal, but mainly cubic. So I huntedthrough the crystallographic literature, [Paul] Groth's ChemischeKrystallographie, five volumes, page by page, looking for cubic crystals. [14]
One that I made was CaHgBr4. As I made each of these I subjected it topreliminary X-ray examination to determine the size of the unit and the numberof atoms in the unit cell. CaHgBr4 turned out to contain 32 calcium atoms, 3200:42:00mercury atoms, and 128 bromine atoms. This was just an impossible problem. Idehydrated nickel sulfate hexahydrate to get nickel sulfate and mixed it withpotassium sulfate. I built an electric furnace, melted them together, and letthe melt cool slowly. I got crystals of K2Ni2(SO4)3 and determined the unit celland space group for it. I found the structure depended on 19 parameters.00:43:00Dickinson was working on a structure that depended on five parameters, and hesucceeded, but most successful structure determinations involved zero or one ortwo parameters.
STURCHIO: Nineteen would have been biting off a little more than anyone can chew.
PAULING: Yes. The structure was determined twenty-five years later by somebody.
So then I made Mg2Sn by melting magnesium and tin together and letting it coolslowly. It was brittle, so I just broke the pellet, which was about an inchdiameter, with a hammer and got cleavage fragments which were well suited toX-ray study. And I melted sodium and dissolved cadmium in it and let it cool00:44:00slowly. I put the product into absolute ethanol, which dissolves the sodium anddoesn't attack sodium dicadmide, and got very nice octahedral sodium dicadmidecrystals. The Mg2Sn, of course, I determined, and it was a no-parameterstructure. It was the first intermetallic compound reported in the literature tohave its structure determined. [15] I mentioned NaCd2 inthe same paper, but not in the title, as having a very large unit structure, atleast a thousand atoms in the unit cube. Roscoe Dickinson then got some samplesof molybdenite from the stock room, just molybdenum disulfide water-worn00:45:00pebbles, but they were single crystals. You could cleave these pebbles and getcleavage sheets, which gave good X-ray photographs. So that was my first paper. [16]
STURCHIO: And you wrote in [Paul] Ewald's book Fifty Years of X- Ray Diffractionthat looking back on it you still found that a pleasing structure, finding thesurprising result that it was a trigonal prism rather than the structure people expected. [1]
PAULING: Yes. X-ray crystallography was a lot of fun.
I began attacking more difficult problems by this stochastic method. I was00:46:00getting to the point where, by 1927, after I got back from Europe, I had enoughknowledge, perhaps vague sometimes, about the principles of the structure ofcrystals, so that I could say ahead of time what I thought the structure wouldbe. And then I could check the proposed structure, by the X-ray diffractionpattern, and if it agreed I would say this is the structure, and of course itcould even be refined to give better agreement, although that wasn't done verymuch because it involved too much calculation.
Or I could build a model and measure the model. That's what we did with00:47:00Brookite, with one of my first graduate students, HolmesSturdivant. [17] I remember going for an automobile ridewith Roscoe in 1928 near the Institute, just at the corner of Hill and SanPasquale streets, where Roscoe said that he thought it was fine that I was doingthese structures that I was doing, but it was something that he could never do.I've mentioned this several times in interviews----he taught me to be rigorous,to know at every stage in whatever I was working on, whatever I was thinkingabout, what conclusions I'd reached that could be supported rigorously, and whatconclusions involved an assumption somewhere along the line.
00:48:00I was fortunate to have [Richard C.] Tolman teaching there. He was enthusiasticabout teaching science. He gave a course my first semester on the principles ofphysical science. It was not like any other course that I have ever heard about.He discussed dimensional analysis, for example, and he even brought in theprinciple of relativity of size, which is something that he had formulated. He00:49:00had asked, what restraints are there on physics, on our understanding of thephysical world, if we make the assumption that the dimensional scale of theuniverse could be changed, a millionfold say, without changing the nature ofphysics, without changing the values of the dimensionless physical constants,such as the fine structure constant or others. And he tried to draw conclusionsfrom that. He wasn't successful enough for it to have remained a part of physics.
00:50:00STURCHIO: It is interesting that that kind of speculation and abstractintellectual activity was going on at Caltech.
PAULING: Yes. Then we had a course that Tolman gave on atomic and molecularphysics, old quantum theory, using a book called The Origin of Spectra by [PaulD.] Foote and [F. L.] Mohler. [18] It was a very goodbook. I learned a lot of basic quantum physics from it. Then the next year00:51:00Tolman gave a course on Atombau und Spektrallinien using [Arnold] Sommerfelds'sbook in German. [19] It hadn't been translated yet duringthe first year. In the first quarter Noyes gave a course on chemicalthermodynamics, using the last four chapters of Noyes andSherrill. [9] I took this course, and it was the lastcourse that A. A. Noyes taught. Very soon, and I don't remember when, but Ithink the second semester in my freshman year, there was a course on chemicalthermodynamics using Lewis and [Merle] Randall. [20] So if00:52:00Lewis and Randall came out in time it was that year; if not, it may have beenthe following year. But my memory is, and I'm not sure about this, that I had acopy of Lewis and Randall along, when I went to Oregon to be married in 1923.That may be true. Then the following year, 1924, Tolman gave another course onatomic physics using the English edition of Atomic Structure and Spectral Lineswhich had come out in an English translation. [21] So youcan see how much emphasis there was on modern quantum science in the chemistry00:53:00department, to say nothing of the physics department.
STURCHIO: What kind of mathematics were you taking at that time? I noticed inyour first few papers that you were already very familiar with group theory andwere using all of the space group analyses that [Ralph W. G.] Wyckoff had comeup with.
PAULING: Yes. Dickinson taught me space group theory. That was hardly anythingthat I had done. It become routine to use group theory. The selection rules forspace groups had not been tabulated yet, so I had to tabulate these rules myselffor the space groups that I was interested in. If I make statements, my00:54:00biographer, Bob Paradowski, is apt to say that the documents showed that what Isaid isn't right. He has all this stuff.
STURCHIO: Yes, I would like to get in touch with him at some point and compare notes.
PAULING: The first year, I think, I had a course in advanced algebra using thebook by [Edouard] Goursat and [Raymond H.] Hedrick. [22]My first graduate year Harry Bateman, a great mathematician, gave a course invector analysis, and that was one of the most valuable courses I have ever had.00:55:00Later I studied mathematical analysis, using [Edmund T.] Whittaker and [GeorgeN.] Watson, Modern Analysis, which is pretty advanced classicalmathematics. [23] And I had a course in integral equationsfrom Harry Bateman. I had a very valuable course on Newtonian potential theorygiven by Harry Bateman. So very rapidly I built a pretty good mathematical background.
00:56:00STURCHIO: You've talked about Dickinson, and some of Tolman's courses, and Noyesgave you his last course. Could you talk a bit about personal interactions withthe faculty and your fellow graduate students in those first couple of years at Caltech?
PAULING: Well, the first year I wasn't married. I lived with Paul Emmett and hismother. His mother had come down to take care of Paul. He was sort of a mother'sboy, and I lived with them. Paul and I went to some of the same courses.Dickinson and his wife took me to the desert a couple of times. They liked goingout to the Colorado desert, the Palm Springs area, or Painted Canyon about fifty00:57:00miles beyond Palm Springs on the other side of the Coachella Valley. That wasnice. A couple of times, perhaps only once, I went with Paul and his mother andI don't know who else, on an automobile ride about fifty miles or more downtowards Orange County through the orange groves.
I went on a hiking trip with another graduate student, Prescott, in the MountWilson area and we got lost in the wilderness there, and wandered around with no00:58:00trails, finally ending up at Owens Camp after crawling through brush. Thistaught me a lesson about just following along with someone else. In fact, hecrawled out on a cliff, and I crawled out on this cliff too and then I realizedthis was a foolhardy thing to do. It was loose rock, not hard rock climbing, andhere he came from the east, from Yale. He didn't know anything about themountains. He might well have killed both of us, so I stopped and sort of frozeand said we'd have to go back, and with his encouragement I gradually worked myway back. There was a big drop of five hundred feet perhaps from this mountain,00:59:00but he might have killed himself. In fact, I guess he did kill himself someyears later in an explosion in his laboratory. I can still remember howfrightened I was when I realized what was going on. So we were stuck up therehiking our way out and nightfall was approaching. I remember that a fraternitybrother of mine lived up the canyon and we managed to find my fraternitybrother's mother in the Arroyo Seco, who put us up for the night and sent us onour way the next morning. There was a bus. We had gotten into a canyon, theArroyo Seco, where there was a bus line.
01:00:00So that was about the extent of my social contact during my freshman year. Iwrote a letter to my future wife every night and got a letter from her every dayand I worked in the laboratory until about eleven o'clock perhaps, and then camehome and went to bed. Paul delivered the morning paper in Portland, and he wasin the habit of getting up at four o'clock. We had contact at all three mealsthat we had in his mother's home there, but didn't have very much other contact.
01:01:00After I got married, of course, then we had a lot of contact with facultymembers and other students. Bob [Howard Percy] Robertson had come down my secondyear. I think he had arrived from Washington where he had been studyingmathematics with E. T. Bell. E. T. Bell arrived to be professor of mathematics.And Bob Robertson and I and his wife and my wife were together quite a lot then.He's the Robertson who had a student named [A. G.] Walker so that there's aRobertson-Walker universe. He became a cosmologist.
01:02:00[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]
PAULING: There's others. I studied mathematics also with a graduate student whobecame a professor of mathematics at CIT.
STURCHIO: Who was that?
PAULING: Professor Morgan Ward. He was an algebraist. His wife and I got alongwell. We got well acquainted, as well acquainted as one could get, I think, withHarry Bateman, mainly with his wife. He was always thinking about mathematics.01:03:00We went to see them once at their home in La Canada. And Mrs. Bateman called toHarry and he came out and shook hands with me, and shook hands with my wife, andthen shook hands with Mrs. Bateman. Still thinking about some differentialequation that he was working on.
STURCHIO: That reminds me of a story about Herman Schlesinger that I heard acouple of years ago at an ACS meeting. He used to be in the habit of taking hiskids out for a walk and bringing along a couple of issues of JACS and gettinglost thinking about chemistry. One day he came back from the walk and his wifesaid, "Where are the kids?" He had left them in the park.
PAULING: I'll tell you a story about [Norbert] Wiener at MIT who invented01:04:00cybernetics. They moved and he couldn't remember his new house so he stopped alittle kid on the street and said, "Do you know where Professor Wiener lives?"And the kid said, "Yes, that house, Papa." [laughter]
STURCHIO: Well, what you have been telling me is very interesting because itsounds as though you had a lot of contact with the mathematicians at Caltech.01:05:00You were obviously very comfortable with the sorts of things they were doing andyou were doing. Who were the people you would talk chemistry with all the time?Was it mainly Dickinson or were there fellow students in addition to Paul Emmett?
PAULING: Well, there was Oliver Wulf, who just died a month or two ago. His wifewas secretary to Dr. Noyes. Later, after he was posted to CIT by the WeatherBureau for a good number of years, she became my secretary. We saw a lot of the01:06:00Wulfs, and then in later years too in Washington, DC, of them and Paul Emmettand his wife. Tolman was twenty years older than I. G. N. Lewis was twenty-fiveyears older I think. Roscoe was seven years older.
Chemistry at CIT was mainly physical chemistry. Howard Lucas was there doinggood work in organic chemistry. He didn't have a Ph.D. A. A. Noyes didn't thinkmuch of him, but here he became a member of the National Academy of Sciences and01:07:00had outstanding students; he wrote a very good textbook.
Noyes asked me, perhaps in 1932 or 1933, if I would be willing to be professorof organic chemistry and build up the organic chemistry program. Well, thatshows he didn't know much about organic chemistry. I just rejected that idea.But that was because I was making contributions to the understanding of organicchemistry without knowing the art at all, the practical side.
STURCHIO: It's an interesting reflection of Noyes' attitude. Speaking of art,that was another thing I wanted to ask you about. I was intrigued in readingsome of the papers you wrote about the early days of X-ray crystallography that01:08:00C. Lalor Burdick had constructed the first two X-ray spectrometers in the U.S.after coming back from Bragg's laboratory. [1]
PAULING: Yes, yes.
STURCHIO: That must really have been a craft.
PAULING: Yes, and Noyes was responsible. Burdick was working for his Ph.D. inGermany when Noyes wrote to him. He got his Ph.D. in Switzerland, while WorldWar I was on. Noyes wrote to him and told he should go England to Bragg andlearn X-Ray spectrometry. So he did, and he and E. A. Owen, published a paper onthe structure of silicon carbide, carborundum. [24] This01:09:00is work done in England. Then he came to MIT and built an X-ray spectrometer,and then Noyes got him to come to Pasadena and he built another one. There wereparts of it around when I was a graduate student although we no longer used thatspectrometric technique.
STURCHIO: When you came down to Pasadena, did Dickinson put somebody in chargeof teaching you the technique?
PAULING: No, he did it. He was a National Research Council Fellow. He got hisPh.D. two years before, and perhaps he had this National Research CouncilFellowship for three years. I'm not sure. At any rate, I was his only graduate01:10:00student. He told me how to set up a crystal in front of the X-ray beam and howto develop the plate and the Laue photograph, and make the spectral photograph,measure them up and then how to plot, make a gnomonic projection of the Lauephotograph, just step by step. He taught me one after another the basicprinciples of space group theory and of crystallography, the planes and zones,the laws by means of which you can find what plane lies in two zones. I have afeeling that I was a good graduate student in that he probably never had to tell01:11:00me anything twice.
STURCHIO: You were certainly very productive in those early years. You publisheda whole series of papers, first with him and then by yourself. [25]
PAULING: Yes. And I read the literature, and I studied in my courses, which weremainly physics courses, except for these courses that Tolman gave that Imentioned, in chemistry, which was sort of mainly quantum chemistry, quantumphysics. There is no doubt, I am sure, about the statement I made that there isno place in the world where I could have gone at that time to get a bettereducation than I got there.
STURCHIO: It was quite a remarkable group of people that Noyes had brought together.
01:12:00PAULING: Noyes probably deserves most of the credit for the nature of theInstitute. [Robert A.] Millikan was sort of his front man, and Noyes determinedacademic policy. No women were admitted. That was a waste of time, in hisopinion, a waste of effort. He set up a junior travel prize, so that the bestjunior student was given money for six months in Europe, and given academiccredit for it, because he lost one term plus the summer. So one year, in 1926,there were two; they had trouble deciding between them. So they gave the junior01:13:00travel prize to both of them. My wife and I met them in Rome. They were CarlAnderson and Fred Ewing. Fred Ewing didn't have much of a career. He developedHuntington's Disease in middle life, and Carl Anderson, of course, discovered01:14:00the positron. The next year there was a class I'd taught of freshman where oneof them published his first paper with me for research done as a freshmanstudent the following summer. That was Edwin McMillan. [26]
STURCHIO: Yes, he was promising.
PAULING: There were eight out of the dozen members of section A, the honorssection, eight juniors who were selected for the junior travel prize. Dr. Noyesprobably put up the money for it. So the eight of them showed up in Europe. Wesaw Carl Anderson and Fred Ewing in Rome on Easter Day 1926. And we saw the01:15:00eight a year later when they came to Munich.
STURCHIO: I guess by having a small student body, Caltech could afford to reallyinvest that kind of time and resources.
PAULING: For example, Ken [Kenneth S.] Pitzer published a couple of papers withA. A. Noyes when he was a junior. [27] When he was asenior, he published a paper by himself for work done under my direction, acrystal structure job. [28] Then he went to Berkeley andgot his Ph.D. in two years and was made assistant professor. Caltech was anexcellent place. It has gotten pretty big now. They still have 76001:16:00undergraduates but they have 760 graduate students now.
STURCHIO: We're up to about 1925, the year before you went over to Europe as aGuggenheim Fellow. In addition to the crystal structure studies that you weredoing, I read a couple of the early papers you published on chemical structureand bonding while you were still at Caltech. One of the first was still usingthe old Bohr theory. [29]
PAULING: Yes.
STURCHIO: When were you beginning to become familiar with the new quantummechanics? Was that before you went over to Europe?
01:17:00PAULING: Well, the new quantum chemistry didn't exist yet. But before I went toEurope in March I had heard lectures by [Max] Born on quantum mechanics, in1925. In 1925 [Werner] Heisenberg discovered quantum mechanics, and publishedhis first paper. [30] Born and [P.] Jordan noticed thathis theory involved matrix mathematics, which was a well-developed field ofmathematics that Heisenberg didn't know about. They published papers on matrixmechanics. [31] Born, in December of 1925, gave some01:18:00lectures on matrix mechanics in Pasadena which I attended and took notes on andtried to use. But I gave up, because it was just too difficult. It was very hardto apply to the hydrogen atom. [Wolfgang] Pauli succeeded in treating thehydrogen atom with matrix mechanics. So, it was still with the old quantumtheory still that I was trying to understand chemistry, and not verysuccessfully. Other people were trying to develop the theory of the hydrogenmolecule, or even the hydrogen molecule ion. Pauli didn't succeed, nor didHeisenberg, when they tried to treat that problem. It took the Schrodinger waveequation to permit quantum chemistry to be born. My early effort, where I01:19:00assigned structures to benzene and naphthalene, was rather amateurish I wouldsay, though it perhaps showed some imagination. And this idea, I think, wasn'tany worse than some of the others that were being proposed.
STURCHIO: That showed you had continued to think about those questions that youmentioned earlier today, that had interested you when you first came acrossLewis and Langmuir's work in the journals. Your first European sojourn from 1926to 1927 I know you have discussed at some length in otherinterviews. [32] You mentioned a little while ago that01:20:00Caltech was a very stimulating environment when you got there. How did you findthings when you left for Europe?
PAULING: Well, I had provided my own stimulus pretty much. Sommerfeld suggesteda problem to me when I arrived in Munich, that I work on the anomalous G factorof the electron and check up on what Max Abraham had written around 1900. WhichI did. But it didn't really interest me, and it never came to anything. I hadapplied the old quantum theory to the problem of the dielectric constant of adipole gas in a magnetic field, and made some predictions, which were checked by01:21:00experiment and were found to be wrong about the time I went to Europe. Thephysics department carried out the experiment. So I attacked the problem as soonas Schrodinger published his papers. I attacked the problem of the dielectricconstant, the motion of a dipole molecule in crossed electrostatic and magneticfields, and solved it. [33] And I was trying to developthe quantum theory of electric and magnetic susceptibilities at the same time as[J. H.] Van Vleck was, and I had some results, but Van Vleck made a verythorough study of those problems.
So I attacked problems that Sommerfeld didn't know about or wasn't interested01:22:00in. They were essentially chemical problems. I found a paper by Gregor Wentzel,which was just published in Zeitschrift fur Physik. [34]He was Privatdozent to Sommerfeld. The paper was on the theoretical calculationof the X-ray doublet screening constants, by quantum mechanics, for atoms withmany electrons. He had used an idea of Schrodinger's of idealizing inner shellsas a spherical shell of negative electric charge with penetrating orbits.Schrodinger had published this about 1920. [35] And01:23:00Wentzel had put in quantum corrections, had changed the equations of old quantumtheory to the corresponding equations in quantum mechanics, and published theresults, which were that the experimental values, the observed values, didn'tagree with the theory. Well, this is just what I was hoping to get involved in.He treated atoms containing many electrons. And even though his theory didn'tagree with experiment, I thought maybe I could use it, with my interest in atomsthat have many electrons and in molecules. So, I read the paper. Instead of just01:24:00reading the paper I went from one equation to the next equation. Pretty soon Ifound that my equations were not the same as his equations. In fact, he had justmade a fundamental mistake. So I took this to Sommerfeld, who showed it toWentzel. My screening constants for these relativistic or magnetic X-raydoublets agreed with the experiment. So I wrote a paper and publishedit. [36] And then I went ahead to use the same method, a01:25:00correction and an expansion of what Wentzel had done, to calculate manyproperties of atoms and ions. I published several papers on that basis. [37]
Well, you see, I had plenty of problems and things I was interested in. One ofthem was sizes of ions, and these screening constants permitted me to derive myionic radii. That led to principles determining the structure of complex ioniccompounds, the silicates and many others, practically all oxygen compounds orcompounds of the halogens. I had mentioned that when I went to Zurich afterbeing for a month in Copenhagen, I was supposed to be working with Schrodinger,01:26:00but I didn't bother him with my presence. I just worked on my own problem, theinteraction of two helium atoms. A little later I published a paper on He2+, thethree-electron bond. [38] Later I developed the theory ofthe three-electron bond, as well as the one-electron bond. There were all sortsof problems in chemistry that could be attacked once the Schrodinger waveequation was formulated, and the general principles about perturbation theoryespecially had been discovered.
01:27:00STURCHIO: When you learned X-ray techniques from Dickinson, you worked directlywith him, and he sort of showed you the technique step by step. Was there asimilar kind of interaction when you were over in Europe working on quantummechanics, or was that pretty much a question of working through the material yourself?
PAULING: I was fortunate during the year that I was there. Sommerfeld gavelectures on wave mechanics. Schrodinger's papers were just coming out and soSommerfeld gave a course on wave mechanics while the papers were still beingpublished. I attended these lectures and read the papers. Sommerfeld had aseminar, too. I probably reported on something in the seminar, although I don't01:28:00remember doing so. I remember a seminar at which another American was supposedto present Schrodinger's paper on the Stark effect of the hydrogen atom and hestarted trying to talk in German. But he got mixed up and couldn't remember theGerman words, so Sommerfeld said he should present it in English. Unfortunatelyhe didn't understand the material well enough to present it in English. Thestudents at the seminar, twenty or twenty-five of them, were very impolite, ofcourse, the way Germans could be. I think they started laughing and making fun01:29:00of him. He left after a while. I don't know what happened to him.
STURCHIO: Who were some of the Americans you came across while you were in Europe?
PAULING: Our American friends in Munich were Ernst and Victor Guillemin. Theyboth took their Ph.D. while we were there. We helped them celebrate, just as wehelped Walter Heitler celebrate passing his doctoral examination. ErnstGuillemin and Victor were sons of an industrialist in Wisconsin, I believe. Theywere probably from Milwaukee, and they spoke German well. Probably the familyspoke German at home. But people thought they were Germans. Ernst became01:30:00professor of electrical engineering at MIT and wrote a very good textbook onelectrical circuits or some such subject. [39] I think histhesis was on electromagnetic waves, radio waves, transmission. Victor had athesis in molecular structure, methane. I saw Ernst once or twice after thenbefore his death. Victor I never saw after Germany. He was working as a01:31:00physicist at the Wright Aeronautics Laboratory in Dayton, Ohio. I wrote a letterto him and got an answer back from his son saying that Victor had died. We hadGerman friends. Especially Heitler and [Fritz] London. They were the two closest ones.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
PAULING: We met Americans from time to time who were passing through. [Robert]01:32:00Havighurst was one of them. David Dennison had just succeeded in explaining theheat capacity of hydrogen gas while he was in Europe. There was Ed [Edward U.]Condon. We met [Robert] Oppenheimer in Gottingen. [James] Franck took us todinner at his home in Gottingen. I had written a paper with Debye in the UnitedStates. [40] I had worked out a theory of interaction ofions that I thought was a refinement of the Debye-Huckel theory of electrolytes.01:33:00Noyes got Debye to come to Pasadena in 1924 so that I could present this to him.He didn't say anything. He just smoked his cigar. This was at a seminar attendedonly by Debye, Noyes and Tolman. I presented my arguments.
STURCHIO: Not a bad audience.
PAULING: No. Debye suggested that I work on a problem which I handled veryquickly, as I think he knew I would. So we published a paper in 1925 on theDebye-Huckel theory and the influence of the dielectric constant on it. Debyehad been in the United States and I knew him and his wife. When we were in01:34:00Zurich we saw a good bit of Debye when I was supposed to be working withSchrodinger. By that time I had so many problems of my own I didn't need to workon something someone else suggested.
STURCHIO: This might be a good time to stop, since you are about to come back to Caltech.
PAULING: Well, this was a great experience, being in Germany and Copenhagen andZurich that year and a half, meeting so many European scientists, mainlyphysicists, and some chemists. I had a good bit of contact with [Kasimir] Fajans01:35:00in Munich. I just wrote a statement about our interaction with Fajans and hiswife, for some Fajans symposium that's coming up. I am not going to repeat it,but I wrote a statement.
STURCHIO: I'd be interested in seeing that. Do you have plans to publish it?
PAULING: I don't know. I am not sure it has been sent in yet. I dictated itbefore I started on this trip.
STURCHIO: Perhaps I can write and ask for a copy when it is ready. He's someoneI've always been interested in. When I took chemistry in college the Fajan ruleswere mentioned and I was intrigued by that. He had an interesting career too.
01:36:00PAULING: It was on radioactive decomposition. He shares the credit with someoneelse on the rules of radioactive decomposition. [The English physicist Frederick Soddy.]
Well, it was really a great experience, and A. A. Noyes engineered the wholething. When I'd got my Ph.D. I had decided I should go to Berkeley. I appliedfor a National Research Council Fellowship, which I got. Noyes said I shouldn't01:37:00really go to Berkeley immediately. (Lloyd Jeffress was still a graduate studentin Berkeley.) But I was still eager to be associated with G. N. Lewis, or to bein his environment and learn more about chemical bonding. So Noyes said, "Theydon't have any X-ray apparatus." And it's true what I said, that CIT was aboutthe only place in the world where a chemistry department was strong in X-raydiffraction. Elsewhere it was mainly physics departments. So he said, "Theydon't have any X-ray apparatus, and you have a lot of work that hasn't beenwritten up for publication. You may want to make more X-ray photographs, so itwould be wise for you to stay here." So I just stayed on, despite the rule ofthe National Research Council that you had to move to another institution, and01:38:00I'd said that I was going to Berkeley.
After a while Noyes said that he wanted me to meet Frank Aydelotte of theGuggenheim Foundation, who was visiting Pasadena. They hadn't given anyGuggenheim Fellowships out yet. I met Aydelotte. Noyes had said, earlier in thefall of 1925, that I should apply for a Guggenheim Fellowship. He said, "Youreducation requires that you study in Europe." So I made an application for aGuggenheim Fellowship, and the decision would be made about the first orfifteenth of April, as to which people would have Guggenheim Fellowships for the01:39:00next year. Then Noyes came to me and said, "You should plan now to go to Europein February or March so as to get an earlier start. You can write to theNational Research Council and resign from your Fellowship." So I wrote, and Igot back an angry letter from the director saying that here I was keepingsomebody else from having a National Research Council Fellowship for the fullyear. I was, and perhaps still am, pretty unsophisticated. It took perhaps fortyyears before I understood what was going on.
01:40:00That was when I learned about another event. G. N. Lewis showed up in Pasadenabefore my European trip. He attended a seminar that somebody gave and just hungaround for a day and then went away. I didn't learn until many years later thathe had come to offer me a job in Berkeley. Noyes was sort of his teacher. Noyeshad argued him out of it and had arranged this business of my continuing to workin Pasadena instead of going to Berkeley, and then of having the Guggenheimfellowship and then of going six or eight months earlier than I could have gone.He said, "You're sure to get the Guggenheim fellowship and the Institute will01:41:00give you $1,500 for the period up to that time." So I just accepted all this.Noyes was determined that I would stay at CIT and not go to Berkeley.
STURCHIO: That is interesting. How did you finally discover that, or did youfigure it out yourself?
PAULING: Maybe Paradowski told me. I am not sure. I am not sure about G. N.Lewis coming down to offer me an assistant professorship at Berkeley, but Idon't know what I might have done if he had offered it to me.
STURCHIO: Well, you might not have had the chance to go to Europe in that case.
PAULING: Well, all of the young people at Berkeley went to Europe on National01:42:00Research Council, Rockefeller, or Guggenheim fellowships.
While I was in Munich, in the spring, I got a letter offering me an appointmentas assistant professor of physical chemistry and mathematical physics atCaltech. So I wrote accepting it. When I got back to Pasadena in September of1927, I found I was assistant professor of physical chemistry. The mathematicalphysics part had disappeared. I didn't ask about it. It just happened. But hereI think Noyes decided that I should be a chemist and not spend half my time inthe physics department, even though there was a very close relationship betweenthe two. Tolman was on a joint appointment in physics and chemistry.
01:43:00STURCHIO: But for a few years you did spend some part of the year at Berkeley.
PAULING: For five years I spent a month or two in Berkeley.
STURCHIO: Did it live up to expectations when you finally had a chance to spendsome time there?
PAULING: It was fine. I enjoyed meeting all of the people, getting moreintimately acquainted with them than I had been before. I had met some of thembefore, of course. I enjoyed that for five years, from the spring of 1929 to thespring of 1933.
Well, perhaps I should rest a little before going out for the evening. Although01:44:00I notice that my instructions say that I am not saying anything tonight.
STURCHIO: Well, thanks very much for your time.
01:45:00[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
1.See, for example: a) Linus Pauling, "Early Work on X-ray Diffraction in the California Institute of Technology," in P. P. Ewald, ed., Fifty Years of X-ray Diffraction (Utrecht: International Union of Crystallography, 1962); 623-628; b) Linus Pauling, "Problems of Inorganic Structures," in P. P. Ewald, ed., Fifty Years of X-ray Diffraction (Utrecht: International Union of Crystallography, 1962); 136-146; c) Linus Pauling, "Fifty Years of Physical Chemistry in the California Institute of Technology," Annual Review of Physical Chemistry, 16 (1965): 347-360; d) Linus Pauling, "Fifty Years of Progress in Structural Chemistry and Molecular Biology," Daedalus, 50 (1970): 988-1014; e)Linus Pauling, "Early Days of Molecular Biology in the California Institute of Technology," Annual Review of Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry, 15 (1986): 1-9.
2.George M. Smith, An Introductory Course in Quantitative Chemical Analysis (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1919; rev. ed. 1921).
3.Ira Remsen, Chemical Experiments Prepared to Accompany Remsen's 'Introduction to the Study of Chemistry' (New York: H. Holt and Company, 1906).
4.John Williams White, The First Greek Book (Boston: Ginn & Company, 1896); Series of First Lessons in Greek (Boston: Ginn & Company, 1886).
5.Robert A. Millikan and Henry G. Gale, A First Course in Physics (New York: Ginn & Company, 1913).
6.William A. Granville, Elements of the Differential and Integral Calculus (Boston: Ginn & Company, 1904; 2nd. ed. 1911).
7.Alexander Smith, Introduction to General Inorganic Chemistry (New York: The Century Company, 1906; rev. ed. 1914; 3rd ed. 1917); A Textbook of Elementary Chemistry rev. by James Kendall (New York: The Century Company, 1914).
8.Earl B. Millard, Physical Chemistry for Colleges (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1st ed. 1921).
9.Arthur A. Noyes and Miles S. Sherrill, A Course of Study in Chemical Principles (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1922).
10.Linus Pauling, General Chemistry (San Francisco: W. H. Freeman and Company, 1947; 2nd ed., 1953).
11.Derek A. Davenport, "Linus Pauling--Chemical Educator," Journal of Chemical Education, 57 (1980): 35-37.
12.Don M. Yost and Albert L. Kaye, "Attempt to Prepare a Chloride or Fluoride of Xenon," Journal of the American Chemical Society 55 (1933): 3890-2; Don M. Yost, "A New Epoch in Chemistry," in H. H. Hyman, ed., Noble Gas Compounds (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1963): 21-22.
13.W. H. and W. L. Bragg, X-rays and Crystal Structure (London: G. Bell & Sons Ltd., 1915; 2nd ed. 1916; 3rd ed. 1918).
14.Paul Groth, Chemische Krystallographie (Leipzig: W. Engelman, 1906-1919).
15.Linus Pauling, "The Crystal Structure of Magnesium Stannide," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 45 (1923): 2777-2780.
16.Roscoe G. Dickinson and Linus Pauling, "The Crystal Structure of Molybdenite," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 45 (1923) 1466-1471.
17.Linus Pauling and James H. Sturdivant, "The Crystal Structure of Brookite," Zeitschrift fur Kristallographie, Mineralogie, und Petrographie 68 (1928): 239-256.
18.P. D. Foote and F. L. Mohler, The Origin of Spectra (New York: Chemical Catalog Company, Inc., 1923).
19.Arnold Sommerfeld, Atombau und Spektrallinien (Braunschweig: F. Vieweg & Son, 1920; 2nd ed. 1923).
20.Gilbert N. Lewis and Merle Randall, Thermodynamics and the Free Energy of Chemical Substances (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1923).
21.Arnold Sommerfeld, Atomic Structure and Spectral Lines, translated by Henry L. Brose (London: Methuen & Company, 1923).
22.Edouard Goursat, A Course in Mathematical Analysis, translated by Earle Raymond Hedrick (Boston: Ginn & Company, 1904-1917).
23.E. T. Whittaker and G. N. Watson, A Course of Modern Analysis (Cambridge University Press, 2nd. ed. 1915, 3rd ed. 1920).
24.C. L. Burdick and E. A. Owen, "The Atomic Structure of Carborundum Determined by X-rays," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 40 (1918): 1749-1959.
25.See Gustave Albrecht, "Scientific Publications of Linus Pauling," in Alexander Rich and Norman Davidson, eds., Structural Chemistry and Molecular Biology, A Volume Dedicated to Linus Pauling by His Students, Colleagues, and Friends (San Francisco: W. H. Freeman Company, 1968): 887-904.
26.Edwin McMillan and Linus Pauling, "An X-ray Study of the Alloys of Lead and Thallium," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 49 (1927): 666-669. Anderson shared the 1936 Nobel Prize in physics. [McMillan shared the 1951 Nobel Prize with Glenn T. Seaborg.]
27.A. A. Noyes, J. L. Hoard, and K. S. Pitzer, "Argentic Salts in Acid Solution. I. Oxidation and reduction Reactions," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 57 (1935): 1221-1229; b) A. A. Noyes. K. S. Pitzer, and C. L. Dunn, "Argentic Salts in Acid Solution. II. Oxidation State of Argentic Salts," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 57 (1935): 1229-1237.
28.Kenneth S. Pitzer, "The Crystal Structure of Tetraamminocadmium Perrhenate," Zeitschrift fur Kristallographie, Mineralogie, und Petrographie, 92 (1935): 131-135 (in English).
29.Linus Pauling, "The Dynamic Model of the Chemical Bond and Its Application to the Structure of Benzene," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 48 (1926): 1132-1143.
30.W. Heisenberg, "Uber quantentheoretische Umdeutung kinematischer und mechanischer Beziehungen" (The Translation of Kinematical and Mechanical Relations into Terms of the Quantum Theory), Zeitschrift fur Physik, 33 (1925): 879-893.
31.M. Born and P. Jordan, "Zur Quantenmechanik (On Quantum Mechanics)," Zeitschrift fur Physik, 34 (1925): 858-888.
32.See, for example, David Ridgway, "Interview with Linus Pauling," Journal of Chemical Education, 53 (1976): 471-476.
33.Linus Pauling, "The Influence of a Magnetic Field on the Dielectric Constant of a Diatomic Dipole Gas," Physical Review, 29 (1927): 145-160.
34.Gregor Wentzel, "Eine Schwierigkeit fur die Theorie des Kreiselectrons (A Difficulty for the Theory of the Spinning Electron)," Zeitschrift fur Physik, 37 (1926): 911-914.
35.E. Schrodinger, "A Model to Explain the Terms of the Sharp Subordinate Series," Zeitschrift fur Physik, 4 (1921): 347-354.
36.Linus Pauling, "Die Abschirmungskonstanten der relativistischen oder magnetischen Rontgenstrahlendubletts" (The Screening Constants of the Relativistic or Magnetic Rontgen-ray Doublets), Zeitschrift fur Physik 40 (1926): 344-350.
37.See, for example, Linus Pauling, "The Theoretical Prediction of the Physical Properties of Many-Electron Atoms and Ions. Mole Refraction, Diamagnetic Susceptibility, and Extension in Space," Proceedings of the Royal Society (London), A 114 (1927): 181-211.
38.Linus Pauling, "The Nature of the Chemical Bond. II. The One-Electron Bond and the Three-Electron Bond," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 53 (1931): 3225-3227.
39.Ernst A. Guillemin, Communication Networks (New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 1931-1935.)
40.Peter Debye and Linus Pauling, "The Inter-Ionic Attraction Theory of Ionized Solutes. IV. The Influence of Variation of Dielectric Constant on the Limiting Law for Small Concentrations," Journal of the American Chemical Society, 47 (1925): 2129-2134.
Complete transcript of interview
The published version of the transcript may diverge from the interview audio due to edits to the transcript made by staff of the Center for Oral History, often at the request of the interviewee, during the transcript review process.
