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This is thetalk page for discussing improvements to theJesus article.
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Obsolete subpages:Cited Authors Bios,Christian views in intro,Scribes Pharisees and Saducees,Dates of Birth and Death,Historicity Reference,Comments, PR, FA,Sockpuppets,Languages Spoken by Jesus,Historical Jesus,Related articles,Rewrite,2nd Paragraph Debate

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Section sizes
Section size forJesus (52 sections)
Section nameByte countProse size (words)
HeaderTotalHeaderTotal
(Top)17,72317,723571571
Name1,8013,847179307
Jesus Christ2,0462,046128128
Life and teachings in the New Testament15882,32905,693
Canonical gospels3,02314,055172936
Authorship, date, and reliability4,8014,801303303
Comparative structure and content6,2316,231461461
Genealogy and nativity8,1458,145369369
Early life, family, and profession6,5126,512408408
Baptism and temptation4,1064,106366366
Public ministry4,58823,0783011,315
Disciples and followers2,0822,082156156
Teachings and miracles13,30213,302714714
Proclamation as Christ and Transfiguration3,1063,106144144
Passion Week35920,826381,835
Activities in Jerusalem4,4224,422350350
Last Supper4,4034,403326326
Agony in the Garden, betrayal, and arrest2,0772,077208208
Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod, and Pilate6,2366,236531531
Crucifixion and entombment3,3293,329382382
Resurrection and ascension5,4495,449464464
Early Christianity5,2945,294266266
Historical views3,22259,5562584,183
Judea and Galilee in the 1st century4,4704,470423423
Sources8,5858,585587587
Chronology7,0137,013485485
Historicity of events1,34521,360291,769
Family8,0908,090484484
Baptism1,3331,333118118
Ministry in Galilee4,9604,960559559
Role2,2282,228224224
Passover and crucifixion in Jerusalem2,5952,595260260
After crucifixion8098099595
Portraits of Jesus3,3183,318278278
Language, ethnicity, and appearance8,1128,112237237
Christ myth theory3,4763,476146146
Religious perspectives3,52349,9631242,029
Christianity8,0288,028399399
Judaism6,4056,405265265
Manichaeism2,1132,1134242
Islam14,47914,917532572
Ahmadiyya4384384040
Druze1,9951,995108108
Baháʼí Faith4,1574,157112112
Other8,8258,825407407
Artistic depictions7,7577,757319319
Associated relics5,7595,759265265
See also54954900
Notes444400
References4425,36000
Sources25,31625,31600
External links2,5342,53400
Total260,715260,71513,63313,633
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Article milestones
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January 17, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
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August 3, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
November 2, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2005Articles for deletionKept
October 6, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
December 15, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
November 27, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
April 21, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 21, 2007WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
July 12, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
May 5, 2013Good article nomineeListed
May 28, 2013Guild of Copy EditorsCopyedited
August 15, 2013Featured article candidatePromoted
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Frequently asked questions

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This section is pinned and will not beautomatically archived.
Q1: What should this article be named?
A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it wasaccepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The titleChrist for Jesus is used byChristians, but not byJews andMuslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the ArabicIsa and HebrewYeshua are less general thanJesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article perWP:Commonname.
Q2: Why does this article use theBC/AD format for dates?
A2: The use ofAD,CE orAD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out withBC/AD but the combined formatAD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the2008 discussion, the2011 discussion and the2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formalrequest for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and theconsensus of the request for comment was to use theBC/AD format.
Q3: Did Jesus exist?
A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus's historicity can be found atHistoricity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found atChrist myth theory. Seethe policy on the issue for more information.
Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?
The issue was discussed on the talk page:
Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?
Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from thereliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents theacademic consensus.
Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?
The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books wasaddressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:
  • Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books wereself-published and failed theWP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g.Christopher Hitchens.
  • Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g.Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc.Israel Finkelstein andNeil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.
The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.
Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?
The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guidelineWP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".
Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?
A: Thiswas discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.
Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?
A4: No. According toBart D. Ehrman inHow Jesus Became God (2014,ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:
  • Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g.Amy-Jill Levine,Geza Vermes,Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 bookSoundings in the Religion of Jesus, byBruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, andJacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field,The Historical Jesus in Context, byAmy-Jill Levine,Dale C. Allison Jr., andJohn Dominic Crossan (2006,ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The MuslimReza Aslan wrote the number-one bestsellerZealot (2013).
  • Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover,G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that theQ source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 bookCan We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
  • It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will bebiblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured thehistorical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholarsMichael Ramsey,C. F. D. Moule andJames Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,[2]Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."[3][4]
  • Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.
Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?
A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:
  • Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus orhis crucifixion.
  • A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
  • More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.
As the article states,Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her wordsvery carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.
Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?
A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.
Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?
Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. AnRfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?
The question came up inthis discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.
Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?
A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the2006 discussion, theJune 2010 discussion, theNovember 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.
Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?
A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed byWP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article,as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.
Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?
A9: This article once used the apostrophe-only possessive:Jesus', notJesus's, as decided inthis discussion in 2014. Following changes to the MoS, it was decided in 2025 to fully move toJesus's. The article had already been changed most of the way. This was discussedhere. Do not change usage within quotes or the titles of works.
Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don'tall Christians believe this?
A10: Wikipedia requiresa neutral point of view written utilizingreliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such asUnitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including inthis discussion.

References

  1. ^R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
  2. ^Hick, John (2006).The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27.ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved5 January 2024.
  3. ^Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000)."Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins".Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum.29 (1):16–26.
  4. ^Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982)."Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance".Christian Century. p. 823. Archived fromthe original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved9 November 2012.

Add in legacy

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The legacy of Jesus Christ should be added, after all, it's done for Mohammed.JBurris123 (talk)19:07, 16 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image

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Should this image be used instead of the current one Filename: Christ with beard.jpg (see on Wikipedia commons)John George III (talk)18:04, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Christ with beard.jpg, 4th century
I assume you meanWP:LEADIMAGE. See recent discussion atTalk:Jesus/Archive_138#RfC:_new_image
This is a recurring discussion. My advice to those who wants to make a proper go at it, is tofirst start a "What pics should we look at in aWP:LEADIMAGE-rfc" discussion, and when that is done, start the leadimage rfc.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk)18:36, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Still waiting for that legacy section

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After all, Mohammed has a legacy section. Jesus Christ should have a legacy sectionJBurris123 (talk)00:34, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

AndThe Buddha doesn't,WP:OTHERCONTENT arguments don't mean that much in the WP-context. What you can do, is dig up some brilliant academic sources on the subject of Jesus' legacy, and write the section yourself, citing those sources. But it's possible someone will think "Not a bad idea, I'll look into that." at some point in the future.WP:SOFIXIT can get quicker results, though. This article is aWP:FA, and if your writing is to be accepted by other editors, quality is needed, and that begins with using great sources.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk)08:45, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy? Like, 'A world-religion' was built on his memory?Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk!08:57, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And abunch of films, don't forget. Looking atMuhammad, the Jesus-article has plenty of similar content, it's just not under the heading "Legacy".Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk)09:05, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The films, yes, but not mentioningJesus Christ, Superstar would simply be blasphemy.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.14:19, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Rik Mayall as Herod is just...super!!! Check it on Youtube if you haven't seen it. Based on that performance, he would have made a fine Joker (as in Batman) too.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk)14:23, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Now I have a mental picture of Batman trying to rescue Jesus from the cross and Jesus frantically whispering "Knock it off, dude, you're screwing up dad's plan!"ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.16:17, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FORUMVegan416 (talk)17:02, 22 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MALVOLIO. Your 'reminder' is objectively more disruptive than a brief back and forth between editors.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.15:06, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the rock n' roll, I personally see no use for a legacy section. My guess for why Muhammad gets one is because he is only a prophet in his religion, compared to Jesus, who is God in his (or1/3rds God, if you prefer).Babysharkb☩ss2 I am Thou, Thou art I19:18, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We have multiple legacy sections (Early Christianity,Religious perspectives,Artistic depictions,Associated relics) and articles (Christianity,New Testament,Depiction of Jesus,Spanish Inquisition, etc), in keeping withWikipedia:Splitting.NebY (talk)19:41, 21 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2025

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Thisedit request has been answered. Set the|answered= parameter tono to reactivate your request.

Change the paragraph section about Judaism's view of Jesus from the critical and hateful view taken in the 12th-century to a modern coexistent consensus with Christianity and Islam that still recognizes his importance and holiness as a prophet whilst rejecting him as a son of god or messiah.

https://www.ccjr.us/news/views/tablet2010dec18https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-do-jews-believe-about-jesus/~2025-34665-91 (talk)23:13, 10 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a"change X to Y" format and provide areliable source if appropriate. -Umby 🌕🐶(talk)23:33, 10 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

“Became convinced” section

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Regarding this statement in the leading section:

"After his death,his followers became convinced that he rose from the dead, and following his ascension, the community they formed eventually became the early Christian Church that expanded as a worldwide movement."

It is understandable that not everyone is a Christian, and thus saying "his followers witnessed that he rose from the dead" is not appropriate for this environment. However, there should be another word to use rather than "became convinced" to describe how his ascension because known. Using the statement "became convinced" likely implies that they must have had to be convinced to believe his ascension, implying that his ascension didn't actually happen. Because Wikipedia articles aren't a place to assume one truth over another (as we cannot prove that Jesus' ascension didn't happen), we should simply use a term that shows how his ascension became popular, rather than implying it didn't happen. Could we use "his disciples believed he rose from the dead" to show how Jesus' ascension became popular, without implying that it didn't happen? In addition, this suggested statement leaves, whether his ascension happened or not, to the reader's subjective interpretation.~2025-40639-12 (talk)04:20, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As recounted in the Gospel narratives, they actually did have to be convinced, since they fled in despair and hid until Jesus appeared to them, and even then they didn't believe it until Jesus offered them various proofs. So "became convinced" is accurate. Your suggestion of "his disciples believed" is also potentially problematic since it could be taken to mean that they just assumed it rather than being convinced due to the events they experienced. So basically , I think the current wording is an "ain't broke, don't fix" situation. --LWGtalk(VOPOV)05:45, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because Wikipedia articles aren't a place to assume one truth over another (as we cannot prove that Jesus' ascension didn't happen) - that's lousy logic; concluding that natural laws were suspended by divine intervention is not the same kind of "truth" as those natural laws; the question would rather be: can you prove that itdid happen? No, of course; the 'fact' isn't even described as such in the gospels, no eye-witnesses. What they do narrate is that there were appearances of a living Jesusafter his death. Which makes the suggestionwe should simply use a term that shows how his ascension became popular, rather than implying it didn't happen off the point; it already presents a supposed resurrection and ascension as a fact.Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk!06:12, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If Wikipedia must assume a truth over than another, that is, assume that resurrection didn't actually happen, it must prove that Jesus' resurrection didn't actually happen. Because it obviously can't, we must give due weight to each worldview; the accounts that said that he did resurect from the dead, and the ones that remain skeptical. This is why I suggested my edit. Using "became convinced" gives the implication that the disciples had to be convinced because his resurection didn't actually happen, even if they actually did have to be convinced to believe. Using "believed" is problematic, so why not use "came to believe", to avoid this implication?Davidninjaking (talk)14:30, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How should we rephrase "following his ascension" to avoid stating that it did happen?NebY (talk)14:45, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The "became convinced" refers to the resurrection not the ascension. This is consistent with the Gospels. This is what the Gospels say about their initial reaction:
"When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it." Mark 16:11
"But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense." Luke 24:11
"Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened." Luke 24:12
"Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) John 20:9-10
Mark, Luke and John. all have clear narratives of the disciples not believing but then they became convinced because of the appearance before them of Jesus (eg on the road to Emmaus). Matthew doesn't however.DeCausa (talk)14:57, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the existing text so it is clear: "After his death, his followers became convinced that he rose from the dead, and following his ascension, the community they formed eventually became the early Christian Church ..." The "becoming convinced" does not relate to the ascension. It's just saying what they did after the ascension. I see nothing wrong with the current wording.DeCausa (talk)15:03, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The "becoming convinced" relates to after his resurecttion not after his ascension. This wording gives the impression that the resurection didn't happen and thus the disciples had to be convinced. This is why I am suggesting using the wording "came to believe", as it doesn't give the impression that the resurection didn't happen, but still explains why the resurection was popularized.Davidninjaking (talk)15:15, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Becoming convinced" doesn't give the impression it didn't happen. And the disclples, according to the Gospels, did have to be convinced. It's fine. However, I've just realised that the reference to the ascension is unqualified as though it's an actual event. In fact, it's unnecessary to the meaning because all the sentence is saying is that the Christian community was established after his death. The reference to the ascension is otiose. I've taken it out.DeCausa (talk)15:22, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Just so. Indeed, ascension, as an event separate from resurrection and distinct from a resurrection in which he was also exalted, may not have been central to the beliefs of all early Christians. We'd better not say that general belief in the ascension preceded the formation of the community that eventually became, etc.NebY (talk)15:44, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I wrote that as you were taking it out. Thanks.NebY (talk)15:45, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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