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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Sideswipe9th (talk ·contribs ·deleted contribs ·logs ·filter log ·block user ·block log)04:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

SMcCandlish (talk ·contribs ·deleted contribs ·logs ·filter log ·block user ·block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history •in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:CT/MOS,WP:ARBATC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanationhow these edits violate it

1. 13:15, 22 February 2024But thanks for making it clear that your goal is to try to abuse process to censor someone who disagreed with you on some trivial style matter. said as a reply toHey man im josh.
2. 13:15, 22 February 2024Jessintime simply try to reflexively censor every word of that andJessintime has done nothing but attempt to suppress, only abused WP:AN process to make false accusations and try to get an admin corps to help them "win" a content dispute they refuse to substantively engage in resolving. said in a reply to another editor, aboutJessintime.
3. 13:15, 22 February 2024you sure display a complete disregard for process when it suits your partisan preferences said as a reply toHey man im josh
4. 21:54, 22 February 2024Hipocrisy doesn't suit you. said as a reply toHey man im josh.
5. 03:10, 23 February 2024But various people love to drag out any argument if style, titles, MoS, AT, or RM are involved in any way, for some damned reason. general comment about editors who get into disputes at MOS and AT.
6. 03:34, 23 February 2024That said, "questioning the MoS" is tellingly battlegroundy wording. said as a reply toHey man im josh.
7. 03:34, 23 February 2024Imagine people engaging in these sorts of defy-until-I-die antics, complete with blatant canvassing at firehose levels, sourcing denial and falsification, a putsch to try to prevent the community being able to examine the underlying question via RfC genera comment about editors who get into disputes at MOS.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Prohibition from making bad faith assumptions about any editor or identifiable group of editors, and strong advise to avoid commenting on contributor and avoid making personal attacks or engaging in incivility, with regards to pages or discussions related toWP:MOS.
   • Also logged atWikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2013#Article titles and capitalisation

Ifcontentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (seeWP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Under active sanction in the topic area, see above

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There's some pretty textbook violations ofWP:AGF here, both at individual editors (Hey man im josh andJessintime), as well as identifiable groups of editors (those who edit the MOS and get into disputes). Not sure what sanctions are appropriate here, but at minimum I'd suggest SMcCandlish strike these comments and apologise to the named editors.Sideswipe9th (talk)04:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this isn't the only recent examples of SMcCandlish assuming bad faith in discussions relating to parts of the MOS.

1. At00:33, 13 January 2024 he saidWe have two extremely entrenched camps demanding the deadnames either be entirely suppressed, or that they always be included if sourceable. Neither camp is going to shut up and go away, and will do everything in their power to wikilawyer their way tovictory. in the currentRfC on MOS:GENDERID
2. At10:39, 24 July 2023 he saida large number of TG/NB persons would nevertheless delight in insisting on their own alternative versions anyway in a discussion about neopronouns in MOS:GENDERID. Multiple editorsasked him to strike the comments as derisive about fellow editors, herefused to do so.
3. At23:38, 24 July 2023 he saidI'm not responsible for how other people bend over backwards to misinterpret things and then to cast people they disagree with on something as ideological "enemies". I will not be browbeaten into self-censoring on a matter like this. whichone editor described as afull-throttle descent into assumptions of bad faith. Which he thenresponded with a personal attackI'm just concerned about more than one editor doing it in more than one direction, while you're only apparently concerned with a single editor doing it in a direction that doesn't agree with your position.

I'm concerned that SMcCandlish's ongoing contributions to MOS related discussions simply brings more heat than light. The repeated accusations and implications of bad faith about other editors do not help when discussing guidelines that crossover between two CTOP areas (GENSEX and CT/MOS).Sideswipe9th (talk)04:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ReJohnuniq: SMcCandlish's conduct in that discussion is emblematic of a much broader long term issue of incivility and accusations of bad faith from him, sometimes directed at individual editors and sometimes directed at identifiable groups. He has been under active sanction for this issue, in this specific CTOP area, for the last decade. Sooner or later, something has to give. Either he needs to address his conduct when engaging in these discussions, or he needs to not participate in them. I would prefer the former, as his institutional knowledge and insight into the guidelines can be helpful. For me, this is just thestraw that broke the camel's back.Sideswipe9th (talk)04:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm loathe to get into a back and forth with the person I'm filing a request about, however.SMcCandlish you saidObserving that PoV pushers on both sides of an issue exist and will push their PoV is an observation lots of us make, all the time. ... there is no fault in saying so. Ordinarily you are correct, people make remarks on POV pushers and wikilayers all the time, however for sinceMarch 2013 you have been under a sanctionpreventing you from making this sort of bad faith accusation on pages or discussions related toWP:MOS. Other people might be able to say it, you are certainly allowed to think it, but you cannot by the plain reading of the sanction actually say it.Sideswipe9th (talk)22:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BilledMammal Regardless of whether it should or should not be split off into its own guideline, or be merged into another one, for the moment it is part of the MOS. Unless and until it is moved elsewhere, discussions about the wording of it are in scope of ARBATC.Sideswipe9th (talk)23:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a few more diffs that demonstrate the same issue from other discussions, unrelated to the one at AN:

• 08:05, 8 January 2024you clearly should not be editing material on WP about historical subjects because you fundamentally misunderstand how to do encyclopedic writing in that topic area. andRandomly firehosing a stream of mutually exclusive "reasons" in a Gish gallop manner to try wear out the opposition is not going to work. directed towardsAndrew Lancaster
• 09:38, 8 January 2024You do not appear to have a firm grasp on the subject and seem to be just opininating for the sake of opinionating, based on incorrect assumptions directed towardsAndrew Lancaster
• 07:38, 2 December 2023specifically because activists will use it to editwar against inclusion of them anywhere on the basis that it "is not required" said a discussion about the deadnames of deceased trans and non-binary people, about an identifiable group of editors.
• 02:06, 3 August 2023a separate page on this would be highly likely to develop WP:LOCALCONSENSUS problems, including the probable formation of a WP:OWN-attempting WP:FACTION. about editors who have an interest in shaping and enforcing MOS:GENDERID.

The first two are direct comments about an individual editor, the last two are about identifiable groups of editors. All are assuming bad faith about their respective targets, and the first two are bordering on incivility and personal attacks. I also want to re-emphasise, the current discussion at AN is just thestraw that broke the camel's back, and emblematic of a broader problem stretching for years across the whole MOS.Sideswipe9th (talk)02:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To the admins who are suggesting postponing this until the conclusion of the AN thread, respectfully that thread is about a different issue. While I have provided diffs from it, they are there to illustrate a deeper, longstanding behavioural problem, thatSMcCandlish has been under active sanction for for the last decade. The diffs I have provided are there to demonstrate instances where SMcCandlish has violated the terms of the sanction he is under.Sideswipe9th (talk)23:52, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IfSMcCandlish continues following with what he's said on my talk page, about re-evaluating and changing his approach so that this type of misunderstanding stops happening, I would be content with a reminder.Sideswipe9th (talk)17:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Notification diff.

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Background: I'd made observations at an essay I wrote. Jessintime reverted it all with grandstanding, subjective rationale of "inappropriate", with evidenceless bad-faith-assumptive accusation of GAMING. I un-reverted (with curt comment). Instead of normal discussion, Jessintime went to AN with same accusation: "attempt to game the system in light of the threads like the close review above".WP:GAMING is specifically defined as bad-faith activity. Jessintime's partisan insaid review.

I was unnecessarily testy to Jessintime, my tone poor and flippant. I should've been the one to open talk-page discussion, though BRD's a rather conventionalized essay, not required. At AN, I offered to userspace the essay. Also suggested people're welcome to MfD it to that end (just not misuse AN as "pseudo-MfD"). Repeatedly welcomed editors to raise issues in talk toward wording changes. Any such solution is fine. Tempest in a teapot. It's not AN/AE material, just routine, temporary content-dispute. Apologized to Jessintime for flippancy and venty response at AN (common there, but nevertheless more heat than light)[7]. Did major tone edit to the entire essay; should address Jessintime's concern.

[SMcCandlish] needs to address his conduct when engaging in these discussions: Fair enough. I can veer from brusque to wordy, argue forcefully. But there's assumption I'm "angry". Not sure what to do about that, what approach/discourse adjustments to make. Made many over the years, so Iam open to such advice. There must be a better way to go about it than I have been, since I've clearly upset some people.

Colin'sfirst law of holes advice is right; no one'll be impressed by me acting butthurt about a finger being pointed or a concern raised. Notangry about anything, just weary. Having a momentary "everyone just STFU about style stuff and go do something else!" reaction, instead of taking a breath, reapproaching from a chill position, wasn't the cool head Colin advises.

Sideswipe9th's initial diffs:

1. It's process-abusive to try to turn AN into psudo-MfD, especially when involved in a content dispute (RfC, subject of close review) with author of esssay HMIJ would suppress (more content dispute). Especially unproductive, since discussion at essay and productive content revision are happening –proper process, working like normal.
2. All correct; Jessintime did no discussion, AGF,WP:PRESERVE, or clear rationale; justWP:IDONTLIKEIT, evidenceless accusation.
3. HMIJ (among others) "questioned the legitimacy of" the RfC. (Theory: community barred from addressing article-titles questions except via RM, a view the close rejected). Yet HMIJ wanted to bypass MfD process to get desired result.There's a marked difference here (aside from opposition-silencing): The VPPOL RfC opened (perWP:CONSENUS#By_soliciting_outside_opinions) after RM/MR consensus failure then new dispute flareup. Contrast: no attempt by Jessintime to discuss, just rushed to AN, them HMIJ dogpiled to misuse AN to suppress entire essay, not just material Jessintime criticized. (Seemed vindictive, excessive.) AN is late- not first-stage DR.WP:Process is important not only when it suits personal interest.
4. "Hypocrisy" isn't the sweetest word, but notverboten. Replaced it anyway, as unnessarily testy.
5. Correct observation; community has a bad habit of tolerating, even encouraging, protracted style battlegrounding; drain on editorial productivity and goodwill. Not aspersion-casting, just noting it happens, for unclear reasons (thoughthere are hypotheses). None of this was about HMIJ. It's about a wiki-social issue.
6. Post-RfC actions nothwithstanding, I was observing strong partisanshipduring RfC – dubious "questioning the MoS" and "legitimacy" of community even being able to have the RfC, then providing pro-capitals sourcing (starthere), which didn't stand up to examination. Criticizing "questioning the MoS" as battlegroundy tone seemed reasonable given this history. And the whole comment is wry (HIMJ: "my reply was a bit tongue in cheek"; okay for HMIJ but not me?). Still, I don't like being misinterpreted and don't want to misinterpret; moderated that material.
7. Unnecessary adjectives, but demonstrated factual at RfC page: Canvassing diffed. Incorrect claims about sources disproven by multiple editors. Top 1/3 of page is the canvassed parties trying to derail RfC.

Later diffs from Sideswipe9th (in lengthy content dispute with meelsewhere):

1. Observing PoV pushing exists and likely to continue on both sides of an issue is an observation everyone makes. Wecraft policy to thwart this behavior (it's whyWP:WIKILAWYER exists). No fault in saying so.
2. Correct observation; trans/enby community, broadly, committed to defying imposed categorization/labeling of others' identities. If some particular neopronouns became something of a doctrinaire set, then many would avoid them because they became assumptive labels. Someone didn't like the word "delight", and accused of being derisive, when it was lighthearted approval of resistance. Also was't "about fellow editors". If say "Lots of Scots (and diaspora) don't like being called 'Scotch'", that's not "about editors"; some may turn out to fall into that category, but that'll be entirely incidental.
3. Saying how somethingappears to me isn't a claim about reality of someone's viewpoint, motivations. Yes, I object to blind assumption that if therecould possibly be a negative interpretation, that the intended or objective meaningmust be that negative. By its nature, it leans bad-faith-assumptive. (Don't think it's consciously intended. Probably also some subculture clash.)

On more HMIJ comments: Yes, I bludgeoned as did several on both sides. Not an ideal discussion. I'll endeavor to do better. But mixing "bludgeon" into "bad faith" sentence makes for a claim that posting too oftenis bad-faith (i.e., HMIJ ABFs while accusing me of ABFing). Elephant in HMIJ's (and Sideswipe9th's) room: consistently mislabeling criticism of actions/statements as ABF. It's not. It's disagreement with action/statement. Not judgment as a person, expression of defaulting to distrust, etc. AN[I] consists of little but such inter-editor kvetching. "[C]ompletely irrelevant discussions": nope, deeply intertwined in a causal chain. The irrelevant ones were things like Sideswipe9th diffing me using a word she doesn't like months ago in unrelated subject. No room to address HMIJ's closing invective; its punitive heat didn't assuage the "silence opponent in content disagreement" feel.

Peace is better.Update: Being sensitive to negative interpretations, false accusations, I tone-revised the statements HMIJ objected to[8]; can go further or strike something if needed. I may defend my rationale for writing something, and it not being ABF, but have no interest in retaining material felt hurtful. HMIJ, please do read the above, try to understand my perspective as I have yours. E.g., why I found some of your statements alarming or antagonistic (not just toward me but to consensus formation/process, which matters more).

Sideswipe9th's hypothesis, that "Observing that PoV pushers on both sides of an issue exist and will push their PoV" = ABF, isn't sustainable. ABF about an editor (or group thereof) isn't equivalent to observing bare fact that PoV pushers exist and will (by definition) push PoVs. Observation and assumption aren't synonyms. Discussed in detail in usertalk.

The Wordsmith: "AGF/ABF" don't get to mean whatever someone chooses. Definition atWP:AGF:Assuming good faith (AGF) means assuming that people are not deliberatelytrying to hurt Wikipedia, even when their actions are harmful. I've not assumed, implied, or stated anyone's "trying to hurt Wikipedia", or even were inadvertently harmful. Offense at criticism doesn't equate to being ABFed. Criticizing action, statement, or rationale isn't ABF. Could be misinterpretation, wrong logically, uncivil, or otherwise unhelpful in some instance, but that doesn't transmutate into ABF. Reality: I don't believe anyone has actual bad faith in style disputes. Always appear to have good-faith but oftenprescriptive notions that their preference iscorrect andnecessary based on what they've internalised about English (from "authorities" who conflict), or on sociopolitical language-reform or memetics grounds. While often problematic forWP:NPOV andWP:NOT#ADVOCACY reasons, it doesn't mean bad-faith. Our behavioral jargon – "good/bad faith", "neutral/PoV", "civil[ity]", "personal attack", "advocacy/soapbox", etc. – has very distinct definitions and cannot be randomly mix-and-matched to win/punish.WP:AOBF's important here:Without clear evidence that the action of another editor is actually in bad faith orharassment, repeatedly alleging bad faith motives could be construed as apersonal attack. Repeatedly asserting something one objects tois ABF assumes,insists on, a motivation antithetical to the community, yet is evidence-free and a pretense at mindreading.

Update, after extensive HMIJ and Sideswipe9th usertalk discussion (as Drmies advised), Sideswipe9th posted (quoting me at start):

The gist of my point at your own talk page is that your insistence that such observations by me are "assuming bad faith" is off-base; they come nowhere near the definition of that. Sure, but as I've said just a few moments ago on my own talk page, this sort of misinterpretation of your observations as being one of bad faith seem to keep happeningto you, from all manner of unconnected editors. Perhaps there is a reason for that?

Reason[s] are under discussion, reflection. The AE opener appears to have accepted that while I wasn't as civil as I needed to be (some of that in rather old diffs), it wasn't bad-faith assumption. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 09:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC) (revised a bunch of times to address incoming comments and developments, but keep under 1500 words without an extension)[reply]

I think the opening diffs of this complaint are unfair in that they don't supply context for the hostile remarks. The context is that SMcCandlish got his ass dragged to ANI by Jessintime and explicitly accused of "an attempt togame the system in light of thethreads like the close review above". Thedisputed addition to the so-called "Manual of Style extended FAQ" is indeed highly problematic, inflammatory and verging on rant (e.g. "If you are going around looking for potential exceptions to push against any MoS rule, please find something more productive to do."), but dealing with that by going straight to ANI would I think understandably have got any editor angry and hostile in their response.

The context is necessary as comments about other editors are made all the time at AN/I. While some comments may indeed be uncivil and nasty and so on, making a comment about another editor and one's perceptions about their behaviour isexpected there (as seen by Jessintime's accusation of SMcCandlish gaming the system). Hostile negative comments about another editor are absolutely typical in the case where the community is about to sanction that editor at ANI. So context is needed.

Reading many of the hostile remarks, I'm struck by the phrase "When you are in a hole, stop digging". That, if SMcCandlish is still angry, then perhaps best to leave things with "I concede my tone in response was poor", etc, and leave others to examine the behaviour of all users in that ANI discussion.

Augmenting a so called MOS FAQ with rants about other editors behaviour, which one has only just witnessed and vocally publicly disapproved of, was not wise IMO. SMcCandlish has written useful essays and has first class knowledge of how MoS works. But a cool head is needed to write a good essay. The general feeling of that ANI dispute was that the MOS FAQ has too much personal moan and note enough of a succinct frequently-asked-questions-with-pithy-answers help page. Can this be better avoided in future? One thought would be that any page that appears to be a general advice (like a MoS FAQ essay would be viewed as) should be up-front collaboratively written. That SMcCandlish find a partner to write it, who would maybe help spot when it is getting too personal-viewpointy and too angry? --Colin°^Talk11:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to clarify my statement at AN in regards to "gaming." My belief upon seeing the edit summary used "New section based on various talk-page discussions (user talk, RfCs, RM disputes, etc.)"[9] and the actual content added (which almost everyone at AN has since taken issue with) was that SMcCandlish was effectively attempting to amend a purported part of the MOS amid an article title dispute currently being reviewed at AN. This seemed to run afoul ofWikipedia:FORCEDINTERPRET or "Attempting to force an untoward interpretation of policy, or impose your own novel view of 'standards to apply' rather than those of the community" by amending the MOS to suggest it is inviolable or/and discouraging other editors from questioning it. As for why I went straight to AN, I felt that any discussion at either the FAQ's talk page or the MOS talk page would have been met with the same bludgeoning that occurs regularly at WT:MOS (or has been seen in the ongoing title dispute). I also considered MFD but felt it would beWP:POINTY to nominate it myself given my prior revert.Jessintime (talk)15:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just taking a moment to note that I'm writing something up to respond with. I know it's unlikely this gets closed before then, but I have an unreasonable fear it will be, so I'm just putting this placeholder here.Hey man im josh (talk)20:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having trouble fitting my reply in under 500 words. Is there any chance an admin could approve me for more than 500? I'll keep working on cutting this down in the mean time.Hey man im josh (talk)20:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geez, 5 of the 7 diffs are directed at me… guess I’m involved whether I like it or not. Responding to SMcCandlish’s reply about the diffs:

• Diff 1 – You’ve skirted around the actual diff and made a statement about the general AN, not about the fact that you made a pointed bad faith accusatory comment directed at me. What I don’t understand, and what makes this that much more inappropriate, is that we’re not in any content dispute! Your unsubstantiated statement about me remains unstricken.
• Diff 3 – Your reply is a bad faith accusation on top of a previous bad faith accusation. I did not try to derail a conversation. I questioned the legitimacy of the venue for the discussion, the exact same thing you’re doing in your reply, and I accepted the outcome of the RfC.
• Diff 4 – I was, generally, not participating in the RfC thread referenced, so this reply felt inappropriate given that, ironically, you were trying to argue against that venue for the discussion, similar to what I did at the RfC. I admit that my reply was a bit tongue in cheek.
• Diff 5 – Again, you fail to recognize what you’re writing as bad faith, including accusing me of trying to go after you. I find it strange that you accuse others of having a battleground mentality when you’ve benefited grateful from the community’s tolerance towards your frequent bludgeoning of discussions. I had never felt the need to take a Wikibreak until I dealt with that MOS discussion in which you responded to every single person who did not agree with you. That discussion drained me more than anything else on Wiki ever has. Not because of the outcome, but because it felt ridiculous that there were 3 people who wrote 50+ comments each who drowned out any possibility of constructive discussion.
• Diff 6 –Also correct, especially as to that editor's protracted pro-capitalization activities in the topic in question. – Continued bad faith and unsubstantiated accusations. You’re dragging up completely irrelevant discussions and deflecting from the matter at hand in this response. I want to dispel your misguided notion that you continue to repeat. I moved nearly 400 pages to downcase “Draft” to draft”, I proposed all of the appropriate categories for renaming, and I’m working on an AWB configuration to deal with the 40,000+ pages that need to have draft downcased now. I have NOT made any type of argument or attempt to or overturn the close and I’ve been pushing hard for people to move on. I alsotold you roughly the same thing yesterday. Despite this, you continue to cast aspersions in my direction. Wordsmith (here) and Cbl62 (here) have both praised my post-close behaviour in enacting the changes.
• Diff 7 – An irrelevant to discussion to bring up, but people had valid concerns. I myself have said I had a false belief that the RfC was not going to be binding and that I personally feel a weight of responsibility for it how it turned out because I parroted this belief.

What I’m seeing in this AE is further doubling down by SMC. There are very clear pattern of long-term issues in how they approach discussions and handle their temper, and I fear that without a formal warning or punishment this type of behavior will only continue until addressed. I understand these methods may have “won” discussions but they're not healthy. It's literally a meme that people would rather deal with Israel–Palestine discussions as opposed to MOS, and I think SMC’s conduct in said discussions is a key reason why people are not involved in that area. They’re a large part of it and their behaviour needs to be addressed in some way, otherwise we’re sending a message that this type of behaviour is allowed. They clearly care about Wikipedia, but the damage they’re doing may have gotten to the point that it’s outweighing the positives. We need them to take some time to To be clear, I do not want SMC blocked indefinitely. It's clear they care about the quality of Wikipedia but the way they go about things has been causing harm for a while. The funny thing is it's not even them being wrong, they’re usually right, it's the approach, badgering, and instant bad faith assumptions I've witnessed constantly over the last couple months. They need to be told the way they conduct themselves is not appropriate, spend some time self reflecting on how their behaviour and words come across, and then hopefully come back as a productive editor.

Also, it'd be appreciated if they could strike several of their comments directed at me and acknowledge how their behaviour has come across.Hey man im josh (talk)21:44, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: I did say that a month ago. In response, SMC repeated that it was appropriate. I disagreed until the close, when Wordsmith determined it was. I wrongly parroted the belief it wasn't and I believe that negatively affected participation, which I regret. My POV isn't the same as it was back then because I've spent a lot of time chatting with a few other admins who helped me to see things differently. That's why my comment said we should focus on the validity and content of the discussion, with a tongue in cheek twist. I figure it's better to let a closer determine whether it's appropriate instead of replying with that to everybody, derailing the conversation. Never the less, a tongue in cheek response against someone who views you as an adversary is not a good way to be productive.Hey man im josh (talk)00:16, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting a word extension so that I may continue to respond tomorrow when I get time to do so.Hey man im josh (talk)02:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to comment to first point out that whetherMOS:DEADNAME is really part of the MOS or is instead mislabeled is a matter of a debate; Sideswipe, for example, has argued that it should be seen as, and given the weight of, BLP policy. I would be very hesitant to group alleged misbehavior related to that policy with alleged misbehavior related to the MOS.

I have little opinion on the broader topic, but I do want to comment onHipocrisy doesn't suit you. Editors switching their position based solely on their POV is an issue, and it is appropriate to call it out in an appropriate forum when it is obvious. In this case, SMcCandlish made that response to the commentRFCs are also not the standard place for move discussions, but sometimes the validity and content of a discussion outweighs the venue it's at, exactly one month after Hey man im josh saidA rm discussion needs to take place and nothing in this discussion is binding in any sense - arguing that an RfC is not suitable to move an a page to the extent that it is not and cannot be binding.

It was appropriate, and not an assumption of bad faith, for SMcCandlish to call out the double standards, although they could have been less blunt about it. 22:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I have just two narrow comments because I haven't taken a deep dive to learn the overall situation. On is on accusations of violating wp:AGF. WP:AGF is (rightly so) just a guideline and not a policy because is more of a general principle, and thus is broad and vague enough to be interpret-able to say that some common, logical and correct behaviors are wrong. Second, the complaint really doesn't make any case, it just relies on extracted out-of-context quotes to establish the complaint, which they don't. Sincerely,North8000 (talk)02:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish, Hey Man, Sidewsipe--you all are among some of the most helpful and positive editors here. Please try to find a way to work this out.Acroterion and I would host you in our NYC parlor with coffee and pastries, but we have commitments elsewhere--please think of how much you all have meant to this project, and how much it has meant to you, and talk it over. Thanks,Drmies (talk)02:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not know about theAE restriction prohibiting SMcCandlish from making bad faith assumptions in MOS-related discussions, but exactly this happened to me back in September.

After previously havingraised a concern in a MOS discussion that my approach to sources might be cherry-picking, SMcCandlish posted notifications toVPP andNPOVN which flatly statedinvolves [...]WP:CHERRYPICKING. I asked on their talk page to remove the reference to cherry-picking from the notifications (full discussion). Despite the fact that on the MOS talk page I had already come up with a new approach to sources that explicitlyaddressed the cherry-picking concerns, SMcCandlish declined to remove the reference to cherry-picking from the notifications, commentingIf someone individually chooses to identify with the term CHERRYPICKING and be offended by mention of that rule, that probably says much more about what they've been writing than about what I wrote.[10] The discussion only went downhill from there, with remarks likeyou are not the only person making "do it because sources I like do it" arguments,[11] andI don't think you understand what "cherry-picking" even means.[12]

Meanwhile on the MOS talk page, SMcCandlish misinterpreted aWorkshop proposal I made and concluded from this thatThis "workshop" subsection is simply an excuse to ignore all the concerns raised in the main section of this discussion.[13] When I pointed out that they had misread the proposal with an explicit invitation to discuss at my talk,[14] they doubled down insisting they did not misread, and repeated once more that I was justDigging up examples that specifically support your viewpoint.[15] The type of misinterpretation here (assuming I want the MOS torecommend writing aboutMuhammad as "holy", while of course the text under discussion is about restricting such expressions) speaks a lot to the underlying ABF issues.

Next, when I criticized a different, ngrams-based type of evidence SMcCandlish had presented for their position, they repliedI suspect you did not actually look at the ngrams at all, and have just blindly assumed they are searches for "Muhammad"[16] After some further attempts at explaining why the evidence doesn't work, they replied that my explanations are meremeaningless hand-waving and thateveryone here understands that. I strongly suspect that you do as well, since the alternative is that simply have no understanding at all of what aggregate data is and how basic statistics works.[17] I explicitly asked SMcCandlish totake a break, which seems to have worked, but I'm sure that if they had not assumed some kind of intentional obfuscation (or ignorance) on my part they would have much sooner understood what I was trying to say.

Since this incident I have removed all MOS pages from my watch list, because I simply do not want be confronted with such behavior. In general I have decided to spend a lot less time on WP, and this incident has been a catalyst in that decision.☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉)02:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Courcelles: "shut this down"? I may be misunderstanding, but this really feels dismissive of the issues I raised, as if they were merely piling-on in some free-for-all. I would have raised this in its own report if I had known about the restriction (i.e. that it's not just me, that the ABF is a long-term issue). I get that AE can be a bit of a drag, but at least some comment on what happened here would be welcome.☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉)15:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Following edit tool stats indicated prominent influence of User:SMcCandlish

1)WP:VPP tops in number of edits 958 (14.9%); tops in added text 752,054 (19.6%)Ref tool

2)WP:MOS Tops in Edit; Tops in number of Edit 1,005 (24.3%) In added text 3rd position 97,646 (13.5%)Ref tool

3)WT:MOS Tops in number of edits 5,276 (36.9%); Tops in added text 4,790,959 (53.4%)Ref tool

I have had some small experience of conversing with the User (but not recent one). Since then I prefer to learn from the experienced users. If experienced influential users show good faith towards other well meaning users and show a little more accommodation can be more helpful in achieving the Wikipedia's goals. Bookku (talk)10:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that this thread is still open even asSMcCandlish has been assuming bad faith at my user page. (User talk:Elinruby#And on and on and on).

TL;DR I pinged him in an ANI thread looking for confirmation of an Arbcom request he filed. The ANI involved a mistaken new user who found out they were mistaken and retracted the whole thing. SMcCandlish posted some discussion to my talk page about the need for civility. I responded at some length to his mistaken assumptions about the thread and pointing out that he had made the same Arbcom request also based on an assumption of bad faith (about someone else) but that I had supported it anyway because the e-e CT needs more sourcing restrictions in my opinion.

He doubled down a couple of hours ago, still apparently without reading the thread, and saidI wasn't going to dig into it, and my only purpose here was to recommend a more verbally chilled-out and focus-on-content approach. At the risk of repeating myself, the entire complaint that this comment is about was retracted once the new editor learned that contentious topic alerts and 3RR notifications do not constitute personal attacks.

I have no opinion about the MoS dispute except that I fervently wish editors would pick something and move on.

that is allElinruby (talk)11:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Red-tailed hawk: I would just like to point out that the behaviour I discuss above has happenedsince The Wordsmith and Seraphimblade suggested a reminder, which indicates to me that an informal reminder may not be effective. It stopped once I posted here but the next time it occurs the target may not have an open AE thread to post to. Unless of course you all don't think that lecturing an editor on civility after they were dragged to an ANI thread that explicitly found no evidence of such a problem is not an assumption of bad faith in a CT area. If that is the case, huh, I think I disagree but I bow to your judgement. I realize that he is considered a valuable editor in the MoS topic area, and this is not MoS, but nonetheless. While I approve of his Arbcom request, it was made on the basis of imaginary anti-Semitism and created a situation where editors in the topic area of the Lithuanian Holocaust are forced to explain that no really, the topic really does fall under the Anti-Semitism in Poland Arbcom decision, so apart from the editor who felt a need to change his name, there is a long-lasting problem that was created along with the motion. (Does this Arbcom motion make me sound crazy?)

I am not suggesting we burn him at the stake. My suggestion would be a logged warning, to help him remember.Elinruby (talk)09:35, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• May I please have a short word extension to agree withApaugasma? I will be succinct. I am right at 50O words right now. And don't see much to cut. Courcelles' response raises some questions that I would like to speak to. 'While this case was open:SMcCandlish has been blundering around making accusations in a Holocaust topic, and his previous unfounded accusations of bad faith in the topic were within the past three months. Hardly the stuff of misty legend. Perhaps we need some diffs rather than a post that summarizes another post that summarizes two ANI and one misquoted AE proceedings.Elinruby (talk)17:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not advocating an EE sanction but it's an additional reason to have taken more care. I still suggest a logged warning, and oppose dismissing a decade of behaviour. It has also occurred outside MoS, so I ask that we not add a "in the MoS topic area" scope.

Talk page summary

SM:"Focus on content (in the article, and in claims in the talk page) not on the editor who wrote it."19:50, 3 March

Everyone involved says he misunderstood

• me: "Massive kudos... toStar Mississippi andP-Makoto foractually clicking the freaking links ... required notifications and ...we are supposed to use academic sources, why are you reverting?"
• Closing admin: "I read the complaint (and the revised one) x 3 and I still have no idea what they perceived your wrong action to be"
• ANI OP: "Elinruby is basically right! I was too defensive"
• SM: "recommend a more verbally chilled-out and focus-on-content approach" 08:44, 4 March

Noticeboard background:an AE complaint of "removal or concealment of the history of Lithuanian collaboration" ended in a warning for getting angry at the accusation. ("inappropriate remarks"). A laterANI complaint omits the outcome and says the editor "returned to his practices".

• At 09:35, 6 December 2023 SMcCandlish says "We put a stop to whitewashing and related disruption about the Nazis in one country, so the PoV pushers have simply jumped ship to a neighboring country instead."  

• Many refutations later at 04:30, 16 December 2023 he says "disruption has simply moved one country over but is essentially the same Nazi-whitewashing issue."

Not a listener.Elinruby (talk)06:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've only just become aware this request was open, so apologies for the late response but based on the evidence presented, especially by Apaugasma and Elinruby (and evidence I would have presented if I'd known about this earlier) that this is an ongoing problem that has not stopped since this AE thread was opened I do not thing a simple reminder is sufficient. It is plausible that they forgot about their restriction at first (although nobody should require a reminder to not assume bad faith, especially when doing so has been called out by multiple people in multiple discussions), but it is not plausible they forgot it again since it was brought here. In my view a logged warning is the minimum appropriate level of sanction. A block would be excessive, but adding something enforceable to the restriction would not be - perhaps allowing uninvolved administrators to ban them from any discussion which they assume bad faith and/or mischaracterise the arguments of others (in any manner which is not clearly a genuine misunderstanding)?Thryduulf (talk)16:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This should not be allowed to just idle out without a formal closure. Do uninvolved admins want more diffs or is there enough to demonstrate the pattern of behaviour?Thryduulf (talk)19:20, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Isn'tWikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Wikipedia:Manual of Style extended FAQ enough? I understand that MOS is a bit of aWP:BIKESHED issue but things would have to be quite extreme before opening a request here while an admin noticeboard discussion was ongoing.Johnuniq (talk)04:46, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree withSideswipe9th — this is a false equivalency.El_C16:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Considering that SMcCandlish has acknowledged his poor reaction and that the ANI discussion is ongoing, I'm not sure action is needed here. However,SMcCandlish is at roughly 2100 words in his statement.@SMcCandlish: Please trim your statement to under 1500 words. Considering how much of the text is discussingHey man im josh, an extension for him to 1000 is granted.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}21:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Noting here thatSideswipe9th has requested and been granted a 500 word extension to respond to recent updates.[18] In the future, please try to keep all requests on this page for the sake of transparency.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}02:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Hey man im josh: 500 word extension granted, but I'll say that we're careening towards absurdity with these word counts for what doesn't seem like a very complex issue. Let's all try to keep it brief from this point. I also agree withSeraphimblade that we probably don't need this parallel discussion unless the ANI thread goes pear shaped. However, I'm concerned by the implications of the 2013 editing restriction that seems to still be active.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}02:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't love the same thing being discussed at the same time in multiple venues. I would favor closing this since there was already an ongoing AN discussion, and then if someone thinks there's something still unresolved after the AN thread is closed to discuss here, we can do thatafterwards.Seraphimblade^{Talk to me}02:08, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Seraphimblade's suggestion seems reasonable to me. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)03:58, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd be fine putting this request on hold until the ANI thread resolves.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}04:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm assuming you mean theAN thread? —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)05:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Right, that's the thread.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}05:52, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• We've now had a few days, and the AN thread has died down.SMCCandlish has acknowledged his conduct issue. Do we still need this open? It seems like the editing restriction is still active, so there could be a violation here. It was long ago and I can accept on good faith that it was forgotten, so I don't think anything stricter than a reminder is warranted here.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}17:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that serves as well as anything.Seraphimblade^{Talk to me}01:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd be OK closing this with a reminder about that restriction. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)03:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Concur. Someone please shut this down unless an uninvolved admin comes by soon arguing differently. (I might do it later this afternoon if no one else does.)Courcelles (talk)14:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think we may need a little more time.Valereee (talk)17:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Given the new diffs presented, I would have been supportive of upgrading the reminder to a logged warning. However, the discussion atUser talk:Elinruby seems to be exclusively about theWP:ARBEE, and SMCCandlish's 2013 editing restriction specifically says it applies topages or discussions related toWP:MOS, where these edits would seem out of scope. I'm not seeing enough here to warrant a sanction or logged warning for Eastern Europe. Adding a sentence to the "reminder" that civility applies everywhere on Wikipedia should be enough there.@Elinruby: 300 word extension granted, since it doesn't seem like you've had one already.The Wordsmith^{Talk to me}18:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That seems fair to me. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)21:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are foundhere. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (seeWP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Sennalen (talk ·contribs ·deleted contribs ·logs ·filter log ·block user ·block log) –Sennalen (talk)16:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed

This concerns an indefinite site block as an AE action by Galobtter at[21]. Another matter at AE was called a "related action"[22].

Administrator imposing the sanction

Galobtter (talk ·contribs ·blocks ·protections ·deletions ·page moves ·rights ·RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Galobtter indicated awarenesshere

The block violatedWP:Blocking policy.

• Blocking for any amount of time was not a neccessary measure to prevent disruption.
• An indefinite site block was punitive and grossly disproportionate.

Some well-meaning but misplaced concerns were raised about theWP:CLEANSTART policy. It is not required to notify anyone when making a clean start. The policy page's advice about not editing in controversial topics pertained to avoiding past misdeeds, which was not a circumstance that pertained to me.Bradv confirmed that I was not under any prior sanctions and that I have a legitimate reason not to disclose my former account name.

Disruption was alleged in multiple CTOPs, but all of the actions attributed to me either did not take place or do not constitute disruptions according to Wikipedia policy. There is no cause to believe I will cause disruption at a later time.

• My involvement with the Falun Gong topic began with observing what looked to me like religious bias on a noticeboard, and it ended with posting my evidence at AE. The AE closure agreed there was a problem and warnedBloodofox about it. I had served a 31-hour block for a comment interpreted as a personal attack on Bloodofox, but the matter was cold by the time of the indef. There's no grounds to think I might be disruptive about Falun Gong.

In the course of that filing,Tamzin alleged I had "pushed racist pseudoscience" in March 2023 at[23]. That's me being an outside respondent to an RfC in a CTOP I had no involvement in before or since. I reject any connection between race and IQ. There was nothing either racist or pseudoscientific in my responses. I argued for following best sources and Wikipedia policies. There has been no explanation of what I'm supposed to be answering for, or how I might supposedly be disruptive regarding it in the future.

• I brought an AE request about editors who had refused to discuss their content deletions about Covid-19. It was a plea for help on my part. I tried to be clear that there were off-ramps that could be followed back to discussion and compromise, if others were willing. It was an appropriate and constructive use of the venue.

The matter stemmed from an article I created.[24] The new article was built around high-quality peer-reviewed journals andWP:MEDRS adherence that was superior to any related article.^[a] It was in concordance with the community/scientific consensus[25] that COVID-19 is "likely of zoonotic origin". Creating articles with good sourcing and neutral point of view is the purpose of the encyclopedia. The only way this can appear disruptive is by uncritically accepting unfounded aspersions about my motivations.

My motives for creating the article were questioned. The exact moment I decided to write it[26] was in a discussion about claims that were out of scope for the lab leak page and too technical for the general Origin page. There was noWP:DETAIL page for those kinds of theories, so I made one.

Whether it should be merged into another page is a content question on which reasonable minds can differ, but it was not created to advance a point of view. Sticking to sources saying the pandemic origin is unknown^[b] in no way reflects an agenda to promote any particular theory. In any case, there was no Wikipedia consensus that that the lab leak theory is pseudoscience either,[27] so administrative actions should not act as if there were such a consensus.

In deference to admins' time, in the future I will avoid making a new AE request while still a party to an active one.

• Some of my edits about Herbert Marcuse and Western Marxism were also criticized. I could have done some things better with those edits,[28] which I am happy to discuss further in appropriate venues. What matters for now is that it concerned cold good-faith edits unrelated to any CTOP. The very reason the block was so disproportionate appears to be that it was otherwise not procedurally possible to punish me for those edits as an AE action.[29] That seems like an abuse of process above and beyond the fact it was a non-preventative block.

To recap, with reference to the criteria atWP:BLOCKP:

1. There was no imminent or continuing damage to Wikipedia.
2. There was no present disruptive behavior to deter.
3. My editing was productive, congenial, and within community norms.

I did believe in April 2023 that a lab leak was the best explanation. Expressing that belief violated no rule at the time, and it still doesn't. I later changed my mind while examining the evidence. I also said in those diffs that we would have to wait and see what reliable publishers did with the evidence before Wikipedia could be updated. A few months later, I wrote an article reflecting what reliable sources did with it. That happens to include a paragraph in the article's opinion corner about the "Proximal Origin" controversy, which isWP:GNG on its own. The only reason to think I did anything in bad faith is to assume that I did.Sennalen (talk)17:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: The point of the appeal is I'm not seeing anything that demonstrates thatanyone understands how my edits were disruptive. I'm willing to work on it, but at least one admin has to meet me halfway and point to something that was actually a disruption, and not just a motivation they imagined I had.Sennalen (talk)02:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I give a couple examples of the evidence for the block re the cultural marxism and covid issueshere. I also want to point out that Sennalen believes that Covid stems from a bioengineered lab leak ([30],[31]), which probably explains why like I said she used a news source to undercut a scientific source that said otherwise.

For the race and intelligence topic area, Generalrelative gives a good summary of the issues atWikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 180#Essay on fringe guidelines. For clarity theEyferth study RfC mentioned there is athere and is about thiscontent which is very much about race and intelligence, despite what Sennalen says at that discussion.Galobtter (talk)18:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was one of the named editors in Sennalen's AE filing which boomeranged into their block. One only needs to look at the various unblock request(s) to get an idea of what would likely follow in the case of an unblock: arguments at length rooted in a premise of "I am right and everybody else is wrong". This would be a big time sink for the community and a negative for the Project.Bon courage (talk)10:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The link wasn't directly included, sohere is the AE where Sennalen was sanctioned. I commented as someone uninvolved back then, and the overall discussion among editors was not whether or not to sanction them, but rather how wide the scope needed to be due to disruption in multiple topics. I'm still not seeing any recognition of the problems with their behavior inWP:FRINGE topics and elsewhere in this filing, but ratherWP:IDHT. The block came across pretty clear as that behavior butting up againstWP:NOTHERE when many topic-bans would be needed to try to allow them to edit at this point.KoA (talk)17:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My question is procedural: How does someone transition abruptly from being a senior editor, essentially a hero with no prior blocks, to a perceived villain warranting a complete editing ban? Has this user done one thing that was so egregiously disruptive as to earn this measure, or is this deemed a “straw that broke the camel's back” type of situation? If it's the latter, why haven't there been any prior warnings, pblocks, or tbans, as is typical in other cases?

The best way for the appellant to demonstrate that they are not disruptive is to let them edit something unrelated to the problematic areas. I vote to change the siteban to a tban, or tbans if necessary.XMcan (talk)20:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC). Edited 12:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I don't see that anything has really been learned here. If there were to be an unblock, I think it would need to come with a complete topic ban from editing any fringe topics, but this editor does not seem capable of recognizing whatis a fringe topic, so I do not see that working well either. I therefore would decline the appeal.Seraphimblade^{Talk to me}02:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm not seeing anything that demonstrates that they understand how their edits were disruptive, which doesn't bode well for the disruption not continuing if unblocked.ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)23:40, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think it is possible to craft a topic ban wide enough to stop the disruption yet provide any useful and enjoyable place to edit. Decline.Courcelles (talk)14:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

BilledMammal (talk ·contribs ·deleted contribs ·logs ·filter log ·block user ·block log)03:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Salmoonlight (talk ·contribs ·deleted contribs ·logs ·filter log ·block user ·block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history •in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanationhow these edits violate it

MultipleWP:1RR/edit warring violations. They have beenrequested to self revert the violations atAl-Rashid humanitarian aid incident, but have neither replied to the request nor done so, despite having continued editing including on the articles talk page.

AtAl-Rashid humanitarian aid incident, they violated 1RR with edits to different content:

1. 14:46, 2 March 2024 (Revertedthis, among others)
2. 00:14, 3 March 2024 (Revertedthis)

AtSelf-immolation of Aaron Bushnell, they violated 1RR and 3RR while edit warring withAlpoin117 over the same content.

1. 05:01, 28 February 2024
2. 04:53, 28 February 2024
3. 04:19, 28 February 2024
4. 03:34, 28 February 2024

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Ifcontentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (seeWP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on16:22, 24 December 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

As I said on your talk page 00:14, 3 March 2024 is what needed to be reverted. 11:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@LegalSmeagolian: Alpoin’s contributions don’t appear to be obvious vandalism; they appear to be edit warring with Salmoonlight, with Alpion thinking thecontent's irrelevant, and Salmoonlight disagreeing.

1RR is a bright line rule; violations should be promptly self-reverted, and if they are not it is necessary to report them. Accusing editors who do so if gaming the system disrupts rule enforcement in this contentious topic, and is possiblyWP:BATTLEGROUND behavior - LegalSmeagolian has done this twice now, and I ask that reviewing admins consider warning them against continuing to do so. 17:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems every time I make a report - MakeandToss, Irtapil, here - editors accuse me of bad faith and gaming on the basis of a mistake I made years ago. If it is appropriate to report non-self-reverted 1RR violations then I ask that admins consider warning Nableezy and LegalSmeagolian against continuing to make such accusations, to deter frivolous accusations in the future. Alternatively, if it is inappropriate to make such reports, I ask that the admins consider warning me for frivolous reports. 22:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Salmoonlight: See LegalSmeagolian’s first comment.01:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sameboat: Can you link the ban that Alpoin was violating when they made those edits?00:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then that exception does not apply; the ban was put in place after the edits and thus they weren't a violation. Further, edit warring doesn't justify edit warring back; the correct response is to report the issue.BilledMammal (talk)01:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nableezy: As I said in the first paragraph of this request Idid ask them to self revert. As for the5 days stale edit-war, I don’t think five days (four when the request was made) is particularly stale, and regardless of staleness I think it’s appropriate and useful to demonstrate if there is a pattern of behaviour. 02:05, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: When I saidMakeandToss, Irtapil, here, I wasn't saying that you had previously accused me of bad faith and gaming; I was giving examples of AE reports (Makeandtoss,Irtapil,here) where editors had done so in order to demonstrate a pattern. I was not intending to directly refer to you and I apologize if my comment appeared to be doing so.

With that said, even if I was directly referring to you I don't believe the statement would have beenfactually incorrect; in Makeandtoss you saidIt is crystal clear now that instead of engaging on the articles' talk pages to solve disagreement and reach consensus, they have chosen instead of spend countless hours trying to find fault in other editors to get them banned. At the time, you were told that such allegations wereimmaterial andnot convincing. 09:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

If it’s helpful, my rule of thumb is that if an edit is by an established editor, then it’s not vandalism - exceptions are so rare as to not be worth considering. 16:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

03:42, 3 March 2024

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

The Alpoin117 reverts are irrelevant as Alpoin was being purposefully disruptive and vandalizing articles.Salmoonlight (talk)04:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also it was not necessary to take this to AE. ANI would have worked completely fine.Salmoonlight (talk)04:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted myself now.Salmoonlight (talk)04:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BilledMammal, I strongly feel that all of these attempts to eliminate editors using AE will backfire on you. It is a clear abuse of the system.Salmoonlight (talk)17:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously?? How were those edits not vandalism??Salmoonlight (talk)17:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alpoin117 insulted me too. They're banned. Their sockpuppet is banned. It's against policy to restore edits by vandals/sockpuppets.Salmoonlight (talk)17:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is ridiculous. I have reverted all of my edits onAl-Rashid humanitarian aid incident. You are still trying to get me sanctioned based ona vandal who was being purposefully inflammatory.Salmoonlight (talk)02:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how what Alpoin117 was doing wasn't obviously vandalism. They themselves violated 1RR multiple times over.Salmoonlight (talk)00:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this many editors are accusing you of gaming then maybe it's true. Just a thought.Salmoonlight (talk)22:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal What mistake?Salmoonlight (talk)23:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit war did not occur solely between me and Alpoin117. As for them being disruptive,Cullen328 andAd Orientem can attest to that.Salmoonlight (talk)03:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd highlight this is an additional case of BilledMammal trying to use AE toWP:GAME a victory in I-P content disputes - this is evidenced by BilledMammal including reverts of Alpoin117's, which wereobvious instances of vandalism and not subject to the 1RR. Inclusion of these diffs is groundless and vexatious. BilledMammal has been warned to notuse AE in this way yet has done so twice this week.LegalSmeagolian (talk)16:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal, selective of you to provide Alpoin117's one "reasoned" reversion, which they immediately followed up withreverting more content and inserted a POV showingWP:NOTHERE. Alpoin117 continued to violate 1RR, used a sockpuppet, and edited disruptively. His edits were correctly reverted, with multiple editors patrolling the page to prevent vandalism. Where else should I raise these concerns if not here?LegalSmeagolian (talk)17:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Alpoin117 was under a 1 year editing restriction, to not to participate in deletion discussions or engage in editing for a period of one year - at least that is how I am reading @Ad Orientem's unblock conditions. I could absolutely be wrong on myinterpretation of those conditions.

My concerns regarding the nature of the filing of this request stem from BM's previous filings here in the same topic area against Sameboat and Selfstudier, which resulted in no action being taken. This, coupled with BilledMammals request in the Sameboat discussion asking "Would it be appropriate to restore the status quo (AKA BilledMammal's status quo) while the RfC proceeds?" (which Seraphim correctly answered that this was not the forum to resolve a content dispute) is what makes me nervous, although I commend BilledMammal for his response to Seraphim.LegalSmeagolian (talk)22:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Salmoonlight civility please. And@ScottishFinnishRadish: my reading (and I am not an admin so take this with a grain of salt) of the previous unblock conditions were from deletion discussionsand editing generally. So essentially a mainspace ban. But to your point then why call it a TBAN. But then what is "deletion related" editing outside of deletion discussions? I guess my point is one could read it in a different way and I think some leniency should be given, but again, grain of salt.LegalSmeagolian (talk)22:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Thank you!LegalSmeagolian (talk)23:11, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I request the uninvolved administrators look atWP:VANDALISM prior to a topic ban decision. "The malicious removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition,without any regard to our core content policies of neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), verifiability andno original research, is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia." - Alpoin's edits, adding POV through an unsourced claim that the statements were "Misleading polarizing" was clearlyWP:OR and violatedWP:NPOV, therefore was vandalism as described above. Any argument that Alpoin was making such edits in good faith (to improve the encyclopedia) does not apply as he kept editing disruptively and hisresponse to his ban shows the intent of the edits were not good faith attempts to improve the encyclopedia rather were toWP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I've said my piece.LegalSmeagolian (talk)12:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers: Read the quote again - malicious removalOR changing such content beyond all recognition - Alpoin changed the content beyond all such recognition, which is exactly what occured by their addition "misleading polarizing" language. Many users highlighted this change in the articles talk page. I would argue their behavior was malicious based on their further interactions with other users, including personal attacks, using a sockpuppet to get around a ban, etc.LegalSmeagolian (talk)14:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:3RRNO lists "3. Reverting actions performed by banned users in violation of a ban, and sockpuppets or meatpuppets of banned or blocked users" in one of the exemptions of 3RR/1RR.Alpoin117 (talk ·contribs) clearly satisfies the exemption of counting towards 1RR.Newsweek may not be the best source to support the statement which cites it, the statement itself is rather harmless and didn't justify the removal by Alpoin117.

Apart from sockpuppetry, Alpoin117 was clearly not here to make constructive contribution by adding this defamatory statement about Bushnell without citing any reliable source.[33] --Sameboat - 同舟 (talk ·contri.)00:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Alpoin117 was blocked on 28 Feb 2024 for "Personal attacks on another editor in violation of previous unblock conditions, POV pushing, edit warring" (read theuser's contributions page) when the only article they edited was self-immolation of Aaron Bushnell. There was adiscussion on ANI on 28 Feb exactly about disruptive edits by Alpoin117 regarding the self-immolation article. --Sameboat - 同舟 (talk ·contri.)01:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: 3RRNO is not only about sockpuppetry but "banned users in violation of a ban" who violated their "previous unblock conditions" for edits on the self-immolation article. I am not going to argue about Alpoin117 with you anymore. It's getting unfruitful. --Sameboat - 同舟 (talk ·contri.)01:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers: As long as Salmoonlight vows to never violate 1RR again, they would not face any form of topic ban this time. Am I right? --Sameboat - 同舟 (talk ·contri.)14:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LegalSmeagolian: If all the admins don't see the "misleading polarizing" edit by Alpoin problematic at all, there is no hope to convince them. I think it's time to let it go. --Sameboat - 同舟 (talk ·contri.)14:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers: Just for clarification: Violation of OR or NPOV does not necessarily constitute vandalism. Is that right?14:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Charges of gaming against BM depend on a finding that Alpoin117's edits were either vandalistic or in violation of a ban. Neither is true. I am much less worried that BM might be gaming than that the other participants might continue to edit in ARBPIA with a mistaken sense of what counts as vandalism or ban evasion.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)02:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

LegalSmeagolian, your quote from the vandalism policy is great, but I'd also bold themalicious. It seems like the only thing stopping Salmoonlight from being TBANned would be a recognition that their interpretation of the 1RR exceptions was off, so your furthering their misunderstanding is not helping them. I am now worried about your own understanding of what vandalism is, and I urge you to reconsider it before continuing to edit in sensitive topic areas.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)13:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sameboat, no, and I'm not the right person to ask anyway. You can see in the Result section exactly what the uninvolve admins hope to see from Sal.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)14:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SB, that's 100% right.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)15:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

LS, "malicious" applies to all vandalism, since vandalism is defined as "deliberate" attempts to harm the project. I suppose you could read "malicious" in that part as just referring to removal (I don't). A117's changes did not alter the content "beyond all recognition". I'm hopeful you'll come away with a better understanding of the policy, and I'd be happy to talk more at my user talk page or yours, since you're well over the word limit.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)14:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1 to everything Aquillion said.Firefangledfeathers (talk /contribs)16:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit war with Alpoin would have been better handled by coming here to report that user, as their edits were both 1RR violations and unquestionably tendentious, as inthis one making a personal judgment, ditto forthis one, and that they were edit-warring against multiple users and had blown past the 1RR. Alpoin117 reverted five users six times there, but the portrayal of that edit war here is Salmoonlight vs Alpoin117, and that just isnt true. Should Salmoonlight have reverted as many times as they had? No, of course not, but the complete picture doesnt really support the idea that Salmoonlight should be sanctioned for it. And going back to a 5 days stale edit-war does indeed strike me as one of those things people who are trying to remove the competition do. The other violation has already beenself-reverted, something I thought it was standard practice to ask forbefore coming here, that is if somebody is not just trying to remove the competition.nableezy -01:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SFR, I said at the start that there was a 1RR violation, but the second tacked on part is the battlegrounding you apparently feel so strong about. BilledMammal is indeed attempting to dispense with the opposition, you can see that in his report of Sameboat in which they claimed changing "Free Palestine! Free Palestine!" to "Free Palestine!" is a revert worthy of reporting, or in that same report claiming a new edit is somehow a revert. They do it again here in tacking on a yes stale 5 day old edit-war to a revert report about a NPOV tag, which yes should just be handled on a user talk page. Yes, BM posted on the user's talk page, but they did not wait for any response before escalating to a report here. This is the second report on this page by BM that is, in my view, not meriting an AE report. You all are taking a since self-reverted 1RR violation and a revert war that nobody saw as meriting any attention at all for several days as reason to indef topic ban an editor. Sorry, but this is returning to a game of counting, and you are not looking at the wider context here. But I can file a report about BM's game playing instead of commenting here if that would not make you think it was battlegrounding instead of raising the poor substantiation in the reports currently on this page.nableezy -00:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Ill say that yesthis is not vandalism but it is a garbage edit and one that should be reverted. You are missing the forest for the trees here, and somebody reporting reversions of garbage edits as cause for a ban is what is battleground behavior.nableezy -00:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, despite the claim above that I merit a warning for bringing up supposed mistakes from years past, I did not bring any such thing up here. I brought it up in the above complaint because that one was of the quality that merited the initial warning. But that’s fine, I’ll just make reports of the same quality as this against BM instead of asking that you all take a more discerning view of the ones he is filing.nableezy -09:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am commenting here at this time only because I was pinged by Salmoonlight. Yes, I blocked Alpoin117 and my reasoning can be found atUser talk:Alpoin117. Any editor could have found that quite easily. That does not at all imply that I think that Salmoonlight is blameless. I have some concerns about this editor's behavior but I have not yet investigated closely enough to say anything definitive at this time. So, I may (or may not) comment in the future. I am working on many other things.Cullen328 (talk)04:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that I was the original blocking admin for Alpoin117. The block was broadly speaking for disruptive editing, which in this instance also included personal attacks on other editors. Subsequently I unblocked them subject to conditions laid out on their talk page which included a one year TBan from any involvement in AfD discussions and related editing. I also explicitly warned them that they would be on a very short rope with regards to any future disruptive behavior including NPA. They affirmed their understanding and acceptance of those conditions. Unfortunately they failed to keep their end of the agreement. I was pinged to an ANI discussion, butCullen328 got there first and reblocked them indefinitely. I took a look at the issues and fully endorsed Cullen's block. I am not familiar with the broader issues being discussed here and so respectfully decline to comment further at this time. -Ad Orientem (talk)05:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the fourth or seventh (I lost count) attempt by BilledMammal to get users they don't agree with banned in less than two months, usually based on implausible claims of 1RR violations. I don't think it's a sign of constructive WP editing to spend more time trying to get users banned than constructively contributing to WP articles as their user contributions log reveals.

@BilledMammal: This is the first time I comment on a report you file that does not concern me, so I request you to retract or clarify your factually incorrect claim about: "It seems every time I make a report - MakeandToss, Irtapil, here - editors came and accuse me of bad faith and gaming on the basis of a mistake I made years ago."Makeandtoss (talk)09:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Thanks for clarifying that you weren't referring to myself. Even if you were, it would still be indeed factually incorrect to claim that I have done soevery time, as you have filed more reports that I did not comment on since then.Makeandtoss (talk)09:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Thanks for responding. I carefully chose my words saying: "usually based onimplausible claims", which is my personal opinion; I did not say vexatious. BilledMammal has clarified above that they were not referring to myself. Every editor has the right to express their concerns, which was done in a civil manner and without insulting anyone. Nevertheless, your question is a good reminder to maintain assuming good faith.Makeandtoss (talk)09:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misunderstanding the boundaries between "disruptive edit", "policy-violating edit" and "vandalism" is a very common problem even for more experienced editors. It seems to me that a topic-ban would be excessive.Zero^talk05:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The accusations of trying to "remove the competition" strike me as themselves dangerous. The fact is, in a controversial topic area, the people who notice and take the time to report misconduct are going to be those in dispute with a user - most people who edit controversial topics have at least some opinion on them; and few people closely examine the edits of those they agree with. If a report is valid (and clearly there was at least a 1RR violation here), any disputes the reporter had with the reportee don't matter; they're not required to beWP:UNINVOLVED, obviously. Otherwise there would be a chilling effect on people's willingness to report genuine problems, which would make enforcing AE restrictions extremely difficult. Likewise, "lots of people misunderstand whatobvious vandalism is" can't possibly be a justification for 1RR / 3RR violations or those restrictions would have no meaning. Anyone who genuinely, truly believes that Alpoin117's edits were obvious vandalism should not be editing controversial topic areas at all; the idea that anyone could go "I feel that that edit maliciously violates NPOV, therefore it is vandalism and the 1RR/3RR doesn't apply" is obviously unworkable. --Aquillion (talk)15:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• There are two clear 1RR violations presented here. Alpoin117 was not blocked at the time, and their topic ban was from deletion related discussion. I'm also not terribly impressed with the accusations of trying to remove people from the topic area for reporting clear cut 1RR violations.ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)23:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  LegalSmeagolian, I'm not sure howdeletion related discussions and editing broadly construed would apply to the edits at issue. I believe the violation of unblock conditions refers toAny more disruption, rather than a violation of a topic ban on Wikipedia deletion.ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)22:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Adding an AfD or MfD tag to an article, or removing or adding a prod/csd would be a deletion related edit that is not part of a deletion discussion. A topic ban on "editing broadly construed" would just be a block.ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)23:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Sameboat,WP:VAND is pretty clear,On Wikipedia,vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior)deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose^{(emphasis in original)}. Vast, enormous, titanic errors in NPOV/OR/BLP/OTHERACRONYMS can nonetheless be good faith or at least not a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia.ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)16:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I largely share SFR's reading of the scope of Alpoin117's topic ban—it pertains to deletion discussions, not making ordinary edits—and the topic ban does not plausibly apply to the edits that respondent edit warred to remove. I'm likewise a bit saddened to see that respondent conflatesrevert rule violations withvandalism, as they did when they wrote aboveI don't understand how what Alpoin117 was doing wasn't obviously vandalism. They themselves violated 1RR multiple times over. Very simply, there was edit warring by both respondent and Alpoin117 at the second article, and no reasonablerevert rule exception has been claimed for that case.
  Revert restrictions areself-limiting restrictions; we can only expect that people who do not actually understand their scope will not abide by them. If they don't immediately understand, they are owed an explanation, and several have been proffered in this thread. If respondent does not understand this difference, even after attempts to explain it to them, then we can't address the root of the problem (respondent not understanding that respondent's editsdo constitute 1RR-vio) with less restrictive measures. And, because 1RR is a general sanction that covers thisentire topic area, I'm leaning towards a topic ban from theArab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, unless respondent can explainin their own words the difference betweenvandalism and amere violation a revert rule, as well aswhy the edits made by Alpoin117 donot constitute block or ban evasion.
  Separately, I'm unhappy withthis comment by respondent—that other people (as SFR puts) have madeaccusations of trying to remove people from the topic area for reporting clear cut 1RR violations is not a reasonable rationale for making those accusations oneself. To respondent's credit, the comment waslater struck, but I do think that it was made in the first place may be indicative of abattleground mentality. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)03:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Respondentstated that they were not the only person involved in the edit war with Alpoin117. That may be true, but it is not a reasonable excuse, and it does not address the root problem concerns above.

  If no uninvolved administrator objects within the next day or so, I am going to place an indef TBAN from theArab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. Respondent needs to understand 1RR if they are going to edit in the area, and, even after numerous attempts to explain the relevant substance to them have been made, respondent continues to demonstrate that they do not understand it. The topic ban would (of course) be appealable, and I imagine an appeal would be likely to succeed when respondent demonstrates an understanding of ouredit warring behavioral policy both through adherence toWP:EW in their editing outside of the topic area and through some sort of satisfactory explanation in their own words as towhy the edits highlighted by complainantdo constitute edit warring in violation ofWP:1RR.

  I'd be OK to leave this as a logged warning only if some explanation to the above effect would be forthcoming in the next day or so. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)21:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that if they demonstrate an understanding of 1RR and 3RRNO a warning would be fine, but if they can't demonstrate that understanding then they shouldn't be involved in a topic that is entirely under 1RR.

  I believe some action, be it a general warning or otherwise, needs to be taken against the obvious battleground editing demonstrated by editors here. Reporting bright line 1RR violations is to be expected. If people are upset that BilledMammal keeps raising these issues at AE they should encourage editors to abide by 1RR and remedy any violations when asked.

  Makeandtoss, you were just warnedhere and now you're showing up at this report to accuse the editor who reported you of trying to have editors removed from the topic area with vexatious filings. In what way is that not textbook BATTLEGROUND behavior?

  Nableezy, you're recently off a topic ban for battleground behavior and yet you're droppingthat is if somebody is not just trying to remove the competition at an AE that clearly demonstrates 1RR violationsand adhering to thegentleman's agreement as Salmoonlight continued editing despite the issue being brought up on their talk page. You also saidAnd going back to a 5 days stale edit-war does indeed strike me as one of those things people who are trying to remove the competition do. Four day old behavior that demonstrates a pattern of violating a sanction is not stale, and is the type of context and pattern establishing that is appreciated at AE. In what way is that not textbook BATTLEGROUND behavior?ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)23:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Respondent has continued to edit Wikipedia since 6 March, and no explanation as to their understanding of revert restrictions (nor their exceptions) has been forthcoming. As such, I'm going to be implementing the topic ban now. I will leave this thread open in case other administrators find it reasonable to take some admin action regarding some other participant, though I'll close it tomorrow if nothing new comes up. —Red-tailed hawk _(nest)01:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I generally tend to agree here. These are 1RR violations, and 1RR is a bright line to never cross, not a suggestion. It is also, of course, not an entitlement; it does not indicate that reverting once every 24 hours and one minuteis okay, just that reverting more often definitely is not. The edits reverted were clearly not vandalism, and I'm rather concerned to see them characterized that way. If this editor cannot tell what vandalism is and is not, I suspect we would just see ourselves back here again if they continue to edit in the area. I am also not impressed with those who try to bring up the prior warning against bringing meritless cases; the fact that 1RR violations really did take place here clearly indicates that the request does have merit and is not frivolous or "gaming". So I think absent some forthcoming explanation that's very convincing that this will not happen again, I would support a topic ban from the area.Seraphimblade^{Talk to me}11:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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