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Mineral PhotographyFeedback wanted - best / ideal setup for stacking - horizontal or vertical?

1st Sep 2023 17:15 UTCMarc RemmertOP

hi all,

I am still trying to find out the best setup for doing stacks of micro-minerals.
The setup I see most seems to be a vertical rail with stepper-motor with either the object/specimen moving towards the camera or the camera/tube/lens is being moved.
The alternative is a 'flat' setup where either the object or the camera is moved horizontally.

Initially I tried the horizontal setup but found out that it's easier to properly arrange the specimen and lighting when the specimen lies flat on a smooth underground.

So I am using a vertical setup now where the camera is attached to a macro-rail.

I wonder if this setup might lead to unnecessary vibrations and inaccuracies because the stepper-motor moves some weight up or down for every shot. Also the weight of the camera+tube+lens sits on the threaded rod ...

What are your experiences and why did you decide to use one of the four configs?
Or is there another option I'm not aware of?

BR
Marc

1st Sep 2023 17:57 UTCVolker Betz🌟Expert

I  use vertical, for me its fine. The key is a solid stned and a steppermotor controlle used with 1/128 microsteps. This a almost silent and vibratioin free.

1st Sep 2023 18:22 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Thanks Volker!
Your excellent pictures speak for themselves.
I became also aware of your articles covering this topic - my must-read for the next time.

1st Sep 2023 18:34 UTCSteve HardingerExpert

I would appreciate seeing photos of anyone's stacking setup. Also sources for the equipment such as the stepper motor.

1st Sep 2023 23:35 UTCtiny minerals

03230310017277222024347.jpg
Steve, here's an unretouched photo (haha) of my rig.  I use a very heavy vertical rail that I fabbed up for coarse positioning, the WeMacro rail is mounted to it.  The heavy rail adjusts with a handwheel - that makes it dramatically easier to set up my shots, especially at high magnifications.  I generally use a single high-power light, with diffusers and reflectors, and supplemental lighting as needed.

1st Sep 2023 23:46 UTCJeff Weissman🌟Expert

Tiny - nice setup - that Godox SL150 you are using is overkill, but... definitely needed to assure good quality and steady lighting, especially if heavy diffusion is being used. Good lighting is probably the most important factor, next to lens choice, for macrophotography. Must be hot hot hot! 

An advantage of continuous lighting is that you can preview exactly what your are getting, important when needing to catch reflections off of crystals. Using flash sometimes requires quite a few test exposures until the image looks good.

And don't forget to check your white balance!

1st Sep 2023 23:31 UTCtiny minerals

I personally use vertical, mainly for the reasons you found - it's just easier for me to arrange the view and lighting that way.  I think people get excellent results either way.  Vibration is a controllable problem; larger bodies and lenses have a lot of mass, but your controller should have settings for delay, that can allow vibration to fade.  I use micro 4/3, so everything is a lot smaller and lighter than some of the others, but of course there are other tradeoffs.

1st Sep 2023 23:32 UTCJeff Weissman🌟Expert

Marc (and Steve), the answer is 'yes'. For low magnifications, from cabinet size specimens up to about 2-5x magnification, I use a vertical setup, with the camera body attached to a heavy duty 300mm rail (I recommend Hejnar Photo), the rail in turn is attached to the focus assembly of an old medium format Omega enlarger; focus stacking is done manually by adjusting the rail.

For higher magnifications, I use a nearly horizontal setup, with camera tilted up to 30 degrees downwards as needed. The setup is a bit more complicated: a sturdy frame made from 1-1/4" box channel with 1/4" holes to support both the camera/rail assembly and to attach flashes, preview lamps, and accessories via magic arms. To this is attached a tilting monopod head designed for large format cameras, capable of holding up to 40 lbs, this is very strong and firm. A 300 mm heavy duty rail is next, used for coarse focusing. On top of this is the WeMacro focus stacking rail with stepper motor, followed by a 240 mm rail and then the camera body. I use an attachment on the camera body  to prevent swivel at the 1/4-20 tripod mounting hole. Extension tubes and other lenses are also clamped to the 240 mm rail. All items are attached to each other using extra long (80-100mm) Arca-Swiss compatible clamps. The WeMacro has no problems moving this assembly and is capable of micron-sized steps. 

Also, the specimen sits on a 3-way micrometer stage to give fine adjustments up to +/- 5mm along each axis, which is really handy when working at 10-20x.

For both assemblies, I use two to three flashes, in manual mode, with second-curtain sync - allowing the camera shutter to open 1-2 seconds to allow for vibration damping and settling prior to the flash illumination (need to use a darkened room to prevent stray light from exposing the image).


Sorry, no pictures at this time.

1st Sep 2023 23:56 UTCJeff Weissman🌟Expert

05436370017277222062907.jpg
OK, here is a snapshot of my vertical rig. In this case specimen rests on an old x-y stage taken from a metallurgical comparator that I found, unwanted, in our machine shop at work (the knobs are so big that the comparator is elevated by a glass dish). This rests on the enlarger baseboard, with the 300 mm rail attached to the baseboard riser. Some hand weights are used to provide extra weight to counter the column's built in spring. There is an old Canon FD MP20mm lens, with adapter, attached to the camera body. I am using three Godox wire-less off-shoe macro flashes, with the flash controller wired to the camera body. Shutter control is by manual release cable, and stacking is done by adjusting the rail from 1/4 to 1/32 of a turn. The baseboard sits on sorbothane pads to help control vibration.

(By the way, the ping-pong table is available if anyone wants to haul it out of my house, requires dissassembly)

2nd Sep 2023 05:28 UTCKeith Compton🌟Manager

Jeff
You can always convert the ping pong table to a green backdrop screen for your creative side of mineral photography.((-:)!

2nd Sep 2023 04:19 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Jeff Weissman🌟Expert  ✉️

(By the way, the ping-pong table is available if anyone wants to haul it out of my house, requires dissassembly)
 Somehow that sentence got me smiling. Thanks for the morning chuckle, Jeff!

BTW, I would love to take the pp-table out of your hands, but it will cost me more than an arm and a leg to haul it all the way to Belgium ...

Cheers, Herwig

2nd Sep 2023 06:42 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Thanks to all for the comments and cheers to Jeff for the details and explanations!
Good to see that my currently used vertical configuration is 'okay'.
I think my next step is to replace my digital camera with a mirror less model

2nd Sep 2023 17:36 UTCPaul Favia🌟

04719680017277222108411.jpg
Marc, my set ups have evolved to vertical for micro images, and variable for macro images.  With the vertical micro arrangement, gravity helps eliminate bushing stiction on the Stackshot rail, especially with very small step distances.  I would also say that vertical makes it easier to position the subject, but one has to be extra careful with vibration control.  I have opted for a very rigid 4 leg support on a table weighted with 100 lb of concrete.  Going mirrorless is the best thing you can do, I enjoyed a huge improvement going to mirrorless from the monster Nikon D810.  For macro work using much larger step distances, horizontal works fine, however, as you can see in the picture, I use clamps designed for a drum kit to allow the camera to be tilted as needed for the composition.  Now I just need to find time to take some pictures.   

2nd Sep 2023 19:08 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Hi Paul,

Really enjoyed learning about your setup!
Great that you brought up a possibly important aspect I haven't considered yet - the elimination of friction in a vertical setup!


2nd Sep 2023 17:37 UTCPaul Favia🌟

04591700017277222136097.jpg
Macro set up.

2nd Sep 2023 17:53 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

WOW, Paul, impressive!
I should check out your photos! :-)

Cheers, Herwig

2nd Sep 2023 19:10 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Herwig - wait until I have built in all the good ideas in my setup and start with A++ images here!!! Conquering the POTD-ranks next ....
(Joking 😜)

2nd Sep 2023 19:35 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Dear Marc,
Contrary to popular believe, making a good photo is NOT all about the equipment.
For starters, you need a specimen that is photogenic. A specimen can look pretty good but can be very hard to photograph. Some specimens have a talent for being photographed. Others don't.

Next, the importance of illumination can not be overestimated. You can have the most expensive camera, but if your light s*cks, so will your photos. Getting the light (and the reflections!) just right is KEY, and will normally take more time than actually shooting the specimen. Use multiple light sources instead of just one! Use little mirrors to make certain faces reflect, to add depth of view...

The right background is important too, but that can be arranged afterwards if need be. Just use a single, even colored background with no texture visible.

Very important is to train yourself in seeing the best shot you can make of a specimen. Some people are naturals and will "feel" how to take the best photograph. They have what is called "an eye for good photos". If you don't have it, you can always train it, by looking at lots of photos of top photographers.

And BTW: photographing microminerals is the hardest of all, for the view is frequently limited by the matrix (crystals sitting in a vug). Illumination gets even more complicated. Fortunately microminerals are among the most beautiful mineral models you can imagine! 

Setups can become expensive, but don't need to be. The French photographer Jean-Marc Johannet makes incredibly good photos, yet his setup is quite inexpensive (if I remember correctly).

Anyway, Marc, I hope you'll score a POTD in the near future! :-)
Cheers, Herwig

3rd Sep 2023 09:54 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Herwig - I am very aware of all these caveats (hence I added a "joking" to my comment) - I started my first attempts around 25 years ago based on the book from Jeff Scovil. Lack of money and good specimens stalled this hobby. Now the budget is a bit better and I am now honing my skills for over a year.
Still the biggest issue for me is the lack of really really photogenic specimens. Being a member of some FB-groups I always admire the photos of specimens from Domenico Preite, made by Andrea Chinellato (not sure if the spelling is correct).
I once got some specimens from the collection of Domenico and immediately saw the difference between the quality of his collection and mine ...
however, this does not imply that a good specimens automatically lead to a good photo!
But a well developed, free standing crystal gives a better starting point and higher motivation to achieve the best lighting and the best area of sharpness!

3rd Sep 2023 02:37 UTCDan Polhemus

02371280017277222155450.jpg
Marc -

    In my case, I have the good fortune to be able to use a museum lab for imaging, and access to a computerized microscope setup, shown here (on this day photographing a micromollusk). The camera, sitting at the top, is a Leica MC170 HD with up to 20 megapixel resolution, coupled to a Leica M165-C dissecting stereomicroscope. The system uses a Leica dome illuminator that provides indirect lighting from all angles and thus minimizes shadows. The dome can also be canted at any angle one wishes, in case some shadows are desired. One sets the top and bottom points of focus using the dial control to the left of the scope, specifies the number of steps, and then the computer does the rest, acquiring the images and integrating them into a single final image which appears on the screen. A 60-step image acquisition can be done in a couple of minutes, and the readjusted if necessary. All the individual images that go into the final product can be monitored as they are acquired, and the software has a whole menu of image calibration, adjustment and measurement tools, the latter particularly handy since one can measure individual crystal sizes off the image on the computer monitor. The gearing on the scope optics carrier is very finely machined, so although it is vertically oriented, vibration does not seem to be a major problem, even with fields of view down to a couple of millimeters, as long as the specimen is firmly attached to a stage.

    As you might guess, however, such a system is not cheap. We acquired this one using an NSF grant about 8 years ago, and at that time it ran around $50K US. It would be quite a bit more than that now.

3rd Sep 2023 09:55 UTCMarc RemmertOP

Wow ... Dan, you're a lucky guy to have access to such an ellaborated equipment!
 
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