I'm honored…I think
In the New York Times:
For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check outscientificamerican.com,discovermagazine.com andAnthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?
Of course, we can’t have that, now the howling begins. Some context below.
More from the New York Times Virginia Heffernan:
Clearly I’ve been out of some loop for too long, but does everyone take for granted now that science sites are where graduate students, researchers, doctors and the “skeptical community” go not to interpret data or review experiments but to chip off one-liners, promote their books and jeer at smokers, fat people and churchgoers? And can anyone who still enjoys this class-inflected bloodsport tell me why it has to happen under the banner of science?
Hammering away at an ideology, substituting stridency for contemplation, pummeling its enemies in absentia: ScienceBlogs has become Fox News for the religion-baiting, peak-oil crowd. Though Myers and other science bloggers boast that they can be jerky in the service of anti-charlatanism, that’s not what’s bothersome about them. What’s bothersome is that the site is misleading. It’s not science by scientists, not even remotely; it’s science blogging by science bloggers. And science blogging, apparently, is a form of redundant and effortfully incendiary rhetoric that draws bad-faith moral authority from the word “science” and from occasional invocations of “peer-reviewed” thises and thats.
Under cover of intellectual rigor, the science bloggers — or many of the most visible ones, anyway — prosecute agendas so charged with bigotry that it doesn’t take a pun-happy French criticor a rapier-witted Cambridge atheist to call this whole ScienceBlogs enterprise what it is, or has become: class-war claptrap.
This is all aboutPepsigate. See Heffernan’s columnThe Medium
h/t toTim Lambert of Deltoid, hosted by Scienceblogs who couldn’t bring himself to reference anything else here at WUWT with his collection of supposed gotchas, only the one point where he was sure he could get a dig in:
Heffernan reckons that Whats Up With That presents credible science. This is a blog that argues that Venus is hot, not because of the greenhouse effect, but because of the high pressure in the atmosphere (so hence Jupiter and Saturn are the hottest planets right?) .Look:
If there were no Sun (or other external energy source) atmospheric temperature would approach absolute zero. As a result there would be almost no atmospheric pressure on any planet -> PV = nRT
Only if there was no such thing as gravity.
Umm, Tim, can you tell me what gases on Venus remain in a non-solid state at temperatures approaching absolute zero? What happens to solidified gases like dry ice (Frozen Carbon Dioxide) in a (planetary) gravitational field? Here’s an experiment to help you get the answer:
1. Acquire some dry ice
2. Go outside
3. Toss it upwards into the atmosphere
4. Observe
The point that was being made in that article by Goddard is that with no external energy source (the Sun) Venusian atmospheric gases would contract and eventually freeze at near absolute zero and cling to the surface of the planet, thanks to gravity.
PhysLinkagrees:
Question
What will happen to the gas at absolute zero temperature (0 K)?
Asked by: Rohit
Answer
First of all, the gas will no longer be a gas at absolute zero, but rather a solid. As the gas is cooled, it will make a phase transition from gas into liquid, and upon further cooling from liquid to solid (ie. freezing). Some gases, such as carbon dioxide, skip the liquid phase altogether and go directly from gas to solid.
…
First off, 0K can never be achieved, since the amount of entropy in a system can never be equal to zero, which is the statement of the second law of thermodynamics. This can be nicely illustrated by your question:
Using the state equation for an ideal gas:
PV = nRT
T, the thermodynamic temperature will be equal to 0, so the product of the molar gas constant R (8.31 J/mol/K) and the amount of moles n, will also be zero.
Therefore the product of PV must be zero also. the pressure of the gas must be zero or volume of the gas must be zero
As an example, look at the Ice Caps of Mars, still well above absolute zero but below the freezing point of Carbon Dioxide:
From Wiki:
The polar caps at both poles consist primarily of water ice. Frozen carbon dioxide accumulates as a thin layer about one metre thick on the north cap in the northern winter only, while the south cap has a permanent dry ice cover about eight metres thick.[62]
As we see in the Physlink description, a planetary wide near absolute zero temperature (if the sun blinked off), all the rest of Mars atmosphere would be bound to the surface as a solid too. The result: no atmosphere and no atmospheric pressure.
UPDATE:As is typical anytime somebody not on the team that gets a voice or mention, those who deal in mudslinging and angry rhetoric swarm in to squash it and convince the writer of the “wrongness” of it all.
Here’s a comment from Virginia Heffernan after she’s had the treatmenthere. Note the number of angry labels preceding her response.
Virginia Says:
I’m grateful for all the replies. Nice to meet you here, David.
I get the sense that Pepsigate was the last straw – or not the first, anyway – for at least some of the dissenters from ScienceBlogs. Out of curiosity: Did no one quietly resign over PZ Myers’s Mohammad cartoons? Or question whether they wanted to be part of a network to which he’s the main draw?
In my experience, legacy media types, who do kick up furors over stuff like Mohammad cartoons, nonetheless see *debate* over ad-ed breaches as common, especially now because of the confusion what old-media road rules mean in digital times.
With notable exceptions, blogging, as a form, seems to me to have calcified. Many bloggers who started strong 3-5 years ago have gotten stuck in grudge matches. This is even more evident on political blogs than on science blogs. In fact, after being surprised to find the same cycles of invective on ScienceBlogs that appear on political blogs (where they’re well documented), I started to think the problem might be with the form itself. Like many literary and art forms before it (New Yorker poetry, jazz, manifestos) blogs may have had a heyday – when huge numbers of people were inspired to make original contributions – before, seemingly all at once, the moment is gone. Some people keep doing it, and doing it well, but the wave of innovation passes, and the form itself needs new life. (Twitter? Tumblr?)
I have no training in science. My surprise at ScienceBlogs was akin to the surprise a scientist who might feel if he audited a PhD seminar on Wallace Stevens. Why aren’t they talking about “Anecdote of the Jar”?! Why are they talking about how “misogyny intrinsic to the modernist project”? I saw political axe-grinding bring the humanities almost to a standstill in the 1990s. I thought science was supposed to be above that!
One regret: the Watts blog. Virtually everyone who emailed me pointed out that it’s as axe-grinding as anything out there. I linked to it because has a lively voice; it’s detail-oriented and seemingly not snide; and, above all, it has some beautiful images I’d never seen before. I’m a stranger to the debates on science blogs, so I frankly didn’t recognize the weatherspeak on the blog as “denialist”; I didn’t even know about denialism. I’m don’t endorse the views on the Watts blog, and I’m extremely sorry the recommendation seemed ideological.
All best,
Virginia Heffernan
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Jupiter is the hottest planet, due to the extremely high atmospheric pressure and radioactive decay. Is this Lambert guy for real?
http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/jupiter_worldbook.html
Well I want to thank you, I’ve been following your photos of thermometers for NOAA for some time.
Tamino censored my response to his article, which included these two phase diagrams, showing that pressure approaches zero as temperature approaches zero.
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/images_encyclopedie/VaporPressureGraph/Helium_Vapor_Pressure.GIF
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/2003Q3/101/notes/SaturationVaporPressure3.gif
Venus is hot not because of a greenhouse effect,per se, but because the atmosphere is optically thick — which amounts to almost the same thing as “pressure is high.” The same seems true of Saturn and Jupiter, so Lambert’s mocking tone is off target. Each of these planets achieves an equilibrium temperature appropriate to their distance from the sun at a level well up in the atmosphere (Earth does so essentially at the ground surface which provides most of the warmth for its atmosphere). However, enough energy continues on toward the ground (or to lower levels in the atmosphere) to mix the atmosphere vertically. Adiabatic heating results in temperatures lower in the atmosphere that are surprisingly high. I think both Jupiter and Saturn have lower atmospheric temperatures that are quite high considering distance to the Sun.
Arguments in natural science are often very complex, or at least they involve cascades of mechanisms, which provides all sorts of opportunities for mischief from “gotcha” sorts of people.
Your own reference says “the pressure of the gas must be zero or volume of the gas must be zero” and from this you conclude that the pressure must be zero?
In any case, absent the sun, temperatures don’t go to absolute zero — cosmic background radiation is 3K. An ideal gas (which is what Goddard’s equation describes) remains a gas at any temperature. And the pressure remains the same.
[he saidnear absolute zero not absolute zero. 3K would certainly qualify as “near”. And does a solid have atmospheric pressure? Also “Goddard’s equation” is in fact the ideal gas law. This is not of his making. seehttp://www.ausetute.com.au/idealgas.html
~mod]
Is Lambert some sort of scientist? If he is, I have a safety tip: Do not hire this clown. He combines ignorance with stupidity to a startling degree.
The Times is one of the most perniciously writtem caviar-left rag. One line out of three is a very serious insult to intelligence and pretty much any other is a mild one too. I cannot read it without a bucket nearby to vomit in.
The only reason I open the Times is to see which corporations have the indecency to advertise in it’s pages and to try my best to avoid patronizing those advertisers.
Its seems as the political thought content increases, the critical thought content approaches zero.
Jupiter is the hottest planet, due to the extremely high atmospheric pressure and radioactive decay. Is this Lambert guy for real?
What is the temperature of Jupiter at the altitude at which the pressure is roughly equal to earth’s pressure at ground level?
Here some thoughts on”the Venus argument” in the climate debate:
http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/rdquovenus-argumentrdquo-the-5.php
Tim Lambert
You clearly did not read or understand my article, and quoted one equation you did not understand out of context.
Tim Lambert said- “(so hence Jupiter and Saturn are the hottest planets right?)”
Hahahaha. Oh, wait.
Here are some widely-available data on Jupiter:
The adiabatic lapse rate of Jupiter’s 5000 km thick gaseous phase atmosphere (hydrogen, helium, trace amounts of methane, other bits) is about 2 K/km.
The temperature at 1 bar of pressure on Jupiter is about 165 K. But that is a looooong way from the surface. Jupiter’s distance from the sun is about 5 times Earth’s distance. The 1/r^2 drop in solar insolation, a factor of 25, results (for the same albedo) in a predicted absolute temperature about 2.2 times lower than for Earth at 1 bar (assuming Blackbody equilibrium with no internal heat sources). Earth is about 280 K, so really simple estimates give about 125K at 1 bar on Jupiter-in the ballpark.
At 100 km down into the Jovian atmosphere, T=300K and P=10 bar.
At 20,000 km down from the top of the atmosphere, an ocean of metallic hydrogen begins, with T=11,000K and P=3,000,000 bar.
At 60,000 km down from the top of the atmosphere, a rocky surface is thought to exist, with T=25,000K and P=12,000,000 bar.
It appears that the corresponding ‘surface’ of Jupiter is either at the metallic hydrogen transition region (ocean-like), or the surface of the rocky core. The former has T=11,000K, and the latter has T=25,000K.
So, Jupiter is just a smidgen hotter than Venus or Mercury or Earth or Mars or Saturn or Uranus or Neptune or protoplanet Pluto.
Huh…
…”the “skeptical community” go not to interpret data … but to … jeer at smokers, fat people and churchgoers?”
Is there no end to the twisted hypocrisy of warmist accusations?
Jeer at smokers? I thought realists were the 40-a-day chuffers supposed to be denying the links to cancer?
Jeer at fat people? I thought the deep green Malthusian Optimum Population Trust had the monopoly on seeking to tax large framed individuals more because of their over-consumption?
Jeer at churchgoers? Last I read, realists were painted as creationists.
Here was me thinking that it was those self-righteous, sanctimonious, intolerant libtard hypocrites that were sledging smokers for killing them with their second-hand smoke, complaining that their airplane tickets should be cheaper than the fullsome individuals seated along-side them and getting utterly hysterical that their daughter came home from primary school to tell them that she heard there was a God. How wrong I was! All along, it wasn’t the cultural Marxist atheists who embraced the intolerance of eco-fascism. Virginia Heffernan has opened my eyes to my own Lysenkoism, gah, I’m a beaten man.
Anthony quotes Tim Lambert as writing:
“Heffernan reckons that Whats Up With That presents credible science.”
Surely this is not the issue that Hefferman was writing about. Surely Hefferman was not criticizing all science blogs for not presenting only peer-reviewed material. Maybe she was criticizing some science blogs for claiming that they are presenting the scientific truth in all matters they discuss. I don’t think so. I think she was criticizing bloggers for using the good name of science to carry on their various bigoted agendas which have nothing to do with science. Clearly, WUWT has no hidden agendas, bigoted or otherwise. I do not think that Hefferman intended criticism of WUWT. I think Lambert misunderstood Hefferman. In any case, the point of criticism that Lambert introduced is clearly taken out of context, and that context has been supplied already on WUWT. Case closed.
The “ideal gas” only makes sense if the gas is “thin” (the volume of the molecules does not matter and there is no force between them). If one gets near the condensation point, one should use as a better (but more complicated) formula the one by Van der Waals.
” stevengoddard says:
July 31, 2010 at 8:55 am
Is this Lambert guy for real?”
Is this the same guy who used a fake tape in a debate with Monckton?
” Tim Lambert says:
July 31, 2010 at 9:18 am
Also “Goddard’s equation” is in fact the ideal gas law.”
Actually, the “ideal gas” is not a law, but one of the best examples of a model. One assumes that molecules are points with no volume or interaction (but with mass), that pressure is the continuous collision of these molecules with the walls, uses classical mechanics and some statistics, and one gets what can be used as a definition of temperature.
Of course, for Boyle and Mariotte what they found felt very much like a law.
Steven,
first of all there can be considered Kelvin–Helmholtz mechanism. But there is a limitation due contraction time of the planet. Secondly the Jupiter can be assumed to be a white dwarf with its mass-radius relationship. So its core will be hot for a very long time 🙂
Wow Tim, calm down, you sound like my 3 year old daughter does just before she gets sent to the naughty chair.
It may be important to explain why Venus is so hot now, but what I want to know is where did all the water on Venus go, why is there an excess of deuterium in the atmosphere, and where did all the CO2 come from?
Here is one diagram of the Jovian atmospheric profile. Take it for what it is – we need to do more exploration.
http://www.windows2universe.org/jupiter/images/J_temp_profile_gif_image.html&edu=high
Alexej Buergin sayJuly 31, 2010 at 10:04 am :
Actually, the “ideal gas” is not a law, but one of the best examples of a model. One assumes that molecules are points with no volume or interaction (but with mass), that pressure is the continuous collision of these molecules with the walls, uses classical mechanics and some statistics, and one gets what can be used as a definition of temperature.
As anyone who has dealt with compressed gasses knows, they diverge from the ideal gas law due to their different compressabilities.
Tim Lambert said: “Here’s the thing. Science works. Antibiotics work. And we know they work not because of any “bad-faith moral authority” by scientists but because they collected evidence and conducted experiments and drew conclusions that survived review by their peers.”
Actually no, Tim. We know they work because the results are reproducible by other scientists. Peer review tells you very little about the quality of the science.
You say that “science works”, but that is not always the case, as with climate science. In that instance, and possibly others, the scientific process has been subverted. “Peer review” has become nothing more than an automatic rubber- stamp for any “science” in support of the manmade warming/climate change ideology. It is simply “Pal review”. CAGW/CC has become an industry, and those employed by that industry will do anything in their power to keep it going. Going against it could have seriously negative consequences for one’s standing and career.
Congratulations, Anthony, for the favorable mentioning in the NYT.
Bob, the CO2 comes from volcanoes, just as Earth’s CO2 did.