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NK is in the template, Satmar is not. In fact not a single Chassidic group is there. Better that way perhaps, because otherwise we might get a fight on which to include and which not, and the list would grow to include 20 - 30 groups (Chabad, Satmar, Bobov, Belz for sure). Anyway, I think NK should be taken out. It's a small group of weirdos who have been condemned by everybody for associating with the PA and Iran. Thoughts? --Rabbeinu20:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neturei Karta are a group within Orthodox Judaism, whether or not you agree with them. They do not associate with Iran—that was a fringe group of weirdos criticised by leading figures in NK.--Redaktor23:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rabbeinu:Hasidic Judaism includesall Hasidic groups, just click on it and it will take you to them. Neturei Karta isnot a Hasidic group only, they are a long-standing known group with Hasidim, Misnagdim, even yekkas and academics who have joined them over the years, some very respectable people, and all sorts under their umbrella ideology. So it has nothing to do with Hasidim. NK are not weirdos, they have been part of the Haredi scene in Yerushlayim for a long time and they respresent a very powerful notion. SeeWP:IDONTLIKEIT.IZAK12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be no rhyme or reason for the order in which articles appear in this template. Please explain the order.--Redaktor23:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Redaktor, there is no "grand scheme" so far, you are welcome to think of one. This template was following the (technical) outline of the{{Conservative Judaism}} template. Essentially, it starts with the main Orthodox groups about which there are key articles (Haredi, Hasidic, Modern Orthodox), then moves on to the main Orthodox political parties in Israel (UTJ, Shas, NRP) and worldwide organizations (Agudah, OU), and then on to some of the main ideologies (Torah Umada, Torah Im Drech Eretz), and it includes some of the main educational institutions (Yeshivas and day schools) of Orthodoxy. What is not included in this general set-up?IZAK12:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There does need to be some sense of order. If necessary put them in separate lines, by theme. At the moment it is a hotch-potch in which it is difficult to make sense of the articles listed. Given your explanation (which I could not have worked out myself!), I would lay it out as follows (first draft):
Haredi Judaism - Hasidic Judaism - Modern Orthodox Judaism - Religious Zionism Yeshivas and schools - Torah Umesorah - Torah im Derech Eretz - Torah Umadda - Da'as Torah - Torah study -Orthodox Union Orthodox Jews - Halakha - Orthodox rabbis - Agudath IsraelShas - United Torah Judaism - National Religious Party - HaEdah HaCharedis - Neturei KartaChief Rabbinate of Israel - Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah - List of Hasidic dynasties - more...
There is another issue, which is not addressed by this template. Wedo need some means of accessing articles specific to Orthodox Judaism (such asEruv); they could go in a second half of the template. --Redaktor07:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Redaktor: We don't want the template to get bloated, because ultimately you could fitkol haTorah kulah into a template (which is whatYehoishophot Oliver (talk·contribs) did when he created his{{Orthodox Judaism}} template and which is one of the reasons I nominated it for deletion.) On the other hand{{Jewish life}} and{{Jewish and Israeli holidays}}already exist and they have the bulk of observances that are imporatnt to all of Yiddishkeit. In creating the template here, I am deliberately avoiding specific mitzvas, because according to Orthodoxy, ALL the613 Mitzvot areequally important and no Orthodox Jew can dare to state that one mitzvah is more important thanany other one (exceptTalmud Torah keneged kulam -- so that is why I have includedTorah study because it covers the ENTIRE Torah and ALL the mitzvas, whereasEruv is so complex and the tough boundaries betweende'oraysas andde'rabanans up against each other, and this is not the place to introduce a topic related toMaseches Eruvin one of the toughest inShas!) This template should remain about the Orthodox Judaism movement and world-wide community, and ifany reader will bother to click on the links in it, they will find lots of links and articles and categories that are connected to that topic. The template should NOT function as an "essay" devoted to the faith of Orthodoxy and itsde'oraysas,de'rabannans andminhagim with myriad observances as a gateway to theShulkhan Arukh. It is only a type of mini "portal" or "gateway" for readers to see the major articles that are connected to Orthdodoxy and from there (inside the articles) they are welcome to click on all further articles connected to those pages. As examples, just go to theOrthodox Judaism article and count how many key articles it links to, and similarly the rest. So I think aminimalist approach is perfect and does the job just as well as a "monster template" which is just hideous and gobbles up the page. I have always disliked these monster templates, see for example,Template talk:Judaism#This template is a monstrosity! and more of the talk on that page. I will try to make a few improvements to the actual template here by adding a few headings. Hope you can see it as helpful.IZAK07:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I follow what you say. I do not have in mind including everything mindlessly. However there are articles of specific relevance to Orthodox Judaism (and therefore not in{{Jewish life}} and{{Jewish and Israeli holidays}} which should be collected in one place.Anyway, your changes are a great improvement. Perhaps we could putLaws andEducation near the beginning of the list.--Redaktor08:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Redaktor: Thanks for the compliment about the changes. No, I do NOT think that Laws and Education should be at the head of the list because this is a template about Orthodox Judaism the MOVEMENT, and to "lay down the laws" makes it seem perculiar, as if to say, well, the Orthodox are the only ones who care about the laws and education, which while it may be partially true, is not the way to start this topic. Did you ever hear of theMalbim who was famous for givingmashalim ("analogies")? So once someone asked him how he always manages to get across his point so well, and he said his secret is that he paints the marks around the "arrow" to make it appearas if he shot the arrow into the central point. In our case, one can't jump to the central point of the "do's-and-don'ts" (i.e "THE Laws") as, on the contrary, one must first start with a general introduction about what the topic is about. Remember, Wikipedia isnot a yeshiva or a Bais din, it is an encyclopedia that wants to help people understand a topic, and the best way is to go is from the general to the specific and not the other way around. I think you are confusing the need for aTemplate:Halachah with this template which is aboutthat MOVEMENT calledOrthodox Judaism which is about a lot more than just following this-or-that law or getting educated. And in fact it's funny you think that Eruv is such a good thing to include, because that is usually an example of how various Orthodox groups DISAGREE with each other, and then that becomes a slippery slope as you will then maybe have articles about pro- and anti-Zionism, and who knows what else. So let's just have the general topics and the MAIN articles and let the reader find out for himself and draw his own conclusions about what Orthodoxy is all about with little solid guidance from this template.IZAK08:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't think Politics should be on the first line. Besides everything else, it is mainlyIsraeli politics, so it is localized. Also: Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta are not branches of Judaism (certainly not in the sense of the other branches mentioned). Maybe they can go under Organizations.--Redaktor14:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Redaktor: Let me answer all your points:(1) Half of the world's Jews live in Israel. That is very significant. No-one should lose sight of that ever, and as Israel's Jewish population has grown by about one million each decade since the 1940s its proportionate share of the world's Jews also climbs accordingly.(2) In Israel, for better or worse, religion, meaning Judaism, is inextricably tied in with the political scene. Thus, theUTJ political party is the representative political party ofAshkenazi Haredi religious interests and nothing happens in the UTJ without the OK of the IsraeliGedolim's prior approval. Likewise with theShas party which represents the interests and views of the HarediSephardi Jews in Israel that make up close to half of the Israeli population. Likewise theNRP is the embodiment ofReligious Zionism in Israel. So that is just the way it is, that in Israel, politics and religion go together like a horse and carriage.(3) In truth, Judaism as such doesnot haveany "branches" because there is the Torah, and themitzvot, and theHalachah. Period. The notion of "branches" or "denominations" or "streams" is totally artificial and arbitrary and has more to do with non-Jewish ways of thinking than with anything in Judaism itself. Even the word "Orthodox" is arbitrary and actually silly because it was imposed by the Reform in Germany upon those Jews who chose not to abandon the millenia-old Torah-observant way of life of the Jewish people. But in our modern times, with people being so influenced by non-Jewish nomenclature, some labels take on great meaning and sometimes even a symbolism that goes quite far. Thus "Religious Zionism" denotes avery specific type of Orthodox Jew. one who swears allegiance to the modern State ofIsrael (with all its secular trappings and army) and to Orthodox Judaism, and places them on equal footings, which is something unique since the creation of the modern Jewish state. Similarly, "Neturei Karta" as a phrase and as group denotes the epicenter and chrystalization of the views and beliefs of those Haredi/Hasidic/Orthodox Jews who are 100% totally opposed toany Jewish theological blending of Zionism with the Judaism in any way whatsoever. So it's accurate to say that Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta represent the two ends of the pole on the place of Zionism in the world of Orthodox Judaism today.(4) Religious Zionism is NOT an "organization" (I cannot understand why you think so) it's anideology. There are indeed organizations affiliated with Religious Zionism, such as theMizrachi (Religious Zionism) movement which was and still is an organization. In the US, theOrthodox Union, theRabbinical Council of America, andYeshiva University are all organizations and institutions that (mostly) reflect and are aligned with the Religious Zionist ideology. Similarly theNeturei Karta are an old RELIGIOUS group that goes back to the disciples of "the Gaon of Vilna,due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Chasidic branch of Orthodox Judaism." (See the article and later splits in the original Agudath Israel by RabbiAmram Blau.) Neturei Karta includes different schools of thought within itself and is in essence also an ideological religious movement. There are groups that grow out of these beliefs that then become "organizations" such asJews Against Zionism,Neturei Karta International (a USA organization),Jews Not Zionists and other such splinter organizations, but the point being that the "organizations" do not equal the ideology, which is a much more serious intellectual and theological entity -- especially as it is also closely aligned withSatmar and the influential specific anti-Zionist writings of its Rebbe, RabbiJoel Teitelbaum: "His exposition of his belief that Zionism is prohibited by Halakha ("Jewish law") is entitledVaYoel Moshe. (See article) and it has become the present-day theological rationale of most Neturei Kartaniks.IZAK21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
IZAK You have not answered my points. Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta belong together with Aguda. They all espouse different attitudes to Zionism. you say Judaism has nobranches. Your word, not mine. If you don't like it, take it out. And I still think Education comes before Politics. Yes, Israel may account for 50% of the world's Orthodox Jews, but education affects 100%.
I see you have added UK, which points to the List of Chief Rabbis, a completely marginal article. The United Synagogue and the UOHC would be much more relevant.--Redaktor10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
