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The text from Proverbs 8, where Sophia (the personification of Wisdom) describes herself, reads:

"I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men"

Whilst Tom, in his own words, is:

"Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’"

Furthermore, Tom's wife is called Goldberry, whilst Sophia says of the gift she offers (wisdom and prudence) that "My fruit is better than gold".

The parallels are so striking that this really should be covered in the main body of the article.LeapUK (talk)08:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the thoughts. However, we can't make the connection ourselves under theWP:OR rules. If you can find areliable source such as a book of Tolkien scholarship that makes the connection explicitly then of course we can include the mention.Chiswick Chap (talk)09:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article states:

• "The Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger.." then fails to mention that he isalso a fiction writer and expert in Arthurian studies.

I could go on. Do I need to? There is no reason to single out one author hereSpecial:Diff/1281339900/1281341617 listing every profession they are involved in. It's unrelated, trivial, a distraction and it reads like a biased attempt to discredit the author's work because they have done things besides literary analysis of Tolkien. --GreenC20:11, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's slightly disingenuous of you not to mention that we debated this at length back in 2022. I have no intention of reverting your edit, but I'll note that the psychological interpretation is at odds with the rest of the scholarly analyses, and hasn't been endorsed by any other scholar in the many years that have elapsed since. That remains true even though multiple Tolkien scholars have made use of pyschological analysis of other Middle-earth characters, so I've set the section in context by adding a see also link. By the way, Flieger is a woman. All the best,Chiswick Chap (talk)20:27, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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