Talk:Modern Greek
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man, i swear, people just can't take the truth sometimes...
someAnonymous Coward reverted the edits on the mix of the language with turkish and slavic. i'm gonna revert them back. *sigh*Project2501a 19:40, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
«Μπογιάτισα το ντουβάρι και το ταβάνι με μπογιά». Count the greek words in this phrase. LOLEtz Haim 18:58, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry my friend, but gathering all the word loans you can find and putting them to a phrase to prove the influence of a language upon the other is a bit dubious and not so sincere. The phrase you have created would hardly possibly come out of the mouth of a speaker of greek, as it sounds too "vulgar" and unnatural to be true! Being a greek speaker i have to say that though those words exist in greek their use is not as common as the equivalent greek ones as "τοίχος" "έβαψα" etc. That phrase seems totally unnatural to my ears! NOt to mention that those words you refer to are not used in all parts of greece. Loan words are very often, and greek has turkish words, especially in places like my birthplace were the turkish population before 1913 was of the same number as the greek.
It's small and there's a bunch of conflicting versions of it to the point, imnsho, that ti can't be saved. i propose we, the greek wikipedians, either work on it and improve it, or just scrap it and include a "modern greek" section in theGreek language article.
now, how do i put that to a vote?Project2501a 22:58, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
yeah, true, i should improve this article. just been busyirl lately. i'll eventually get around to it. hmm. now, where can i find a greek linguist...Project2501a 08:24, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made some additions and editing on this article. In my opinion what was said in the older article was not false, but it was badly written and sounded biased. However Modern Greek DID assimilate foreign vocabulary such as Turkish, Italian and French, but a great part of it DID get wiped out by kathareuousa, so in a way Modern Greek of today is purer than the Demotike of the Ottoman Era. And due all the respect Project2501a but you're obviously not an expert yourself. Pointing that modern Greek has significant loan words from SLAVIC languages is pretty ignorant. Loan words came primary from the Latin, Romance and Turkish languages, and much less if at all from Slavic (except maybe some gardening tools). I'm from France but my origin is Greek (from Constantinoupolis), I can speak the language and I have also done studies on it. Even when I had no prior knowledge of Ancient Greek, I could read texts of the New Testament that were written in the 3rd century BC and understand them almost perfectly. I've come across medieval Byzantine literature texts of the 11th century AD (in Demotike) and the language is almost similar to today's. So Modern Greek DOES steam directly from Hellenistic Koine, which in turn is another dialect of ancient Greek that steams from Attic. During the Ottoman period the people's language didn't really evolve, which means that instead of creating new words for every new concept or object that was invented, those words were borrowed from foreign languages - hence the late stage of Demotike. In specific circles however (such as the Phanariots and the Eastern Orthodox Church), the language DID evolve and gave birth to Kathareuousa. The some 150-year co-existence of Kathareuousa and Demotike gives birth to Modern Greek, which is also referred as Demotike - because that's what it is.
As I speak French, English and Greek, I think I'm in better position to tell the degree of foreign influences those languages have
had. Yet in an article on the Modern French or the Modern English language, no-body would stress that they have had enormous influences from other languages and assimilated massive foreign vocabulary, but in an article on Modern Greek (which is 10 times closer to Mycenaean Greek than what modern English to medieval Anglo-Saxonic), for some reason everyone will try to point out and stress how it has had assimilated some foreign vocabulary (without being able to verify it themselves of course). And why is that? Because Modern Greek is part of the infamous language family called GREEK, whose dialects were spoken by Socrates and Plato and its influence is found in almost every language of the planet, therefore it MUST be judged stricter. Is that an "unbiased" and "neutral" perspective to you? Because if it is, then maybe we should seek for a common definition of those terms. I think all the pseudo-linguists (most of which don't speak the languages they judge) should make up their minds on what we can define as "foreign influence" on a language. Does the use of foreign vocabulary count as an influence that has to be stressed? Does a foreign influence become part of the language (and therefore doesn't have to be mentioned at all) after a certain period of time? If yes, then how long is that time period? Until those questions are answered, the majority of the articles on the Greek language (in comparison to the articles on the rest modern languages) can be considered officially BIASED. And eventhough most of you are Greek-speakers as well, I don't think that anyone has the ability nor knowledge to prove me wrong. Finally, I also think that this section should be part of theGreek language article. Anotheranonymous coward.
Project2501a12:48, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm puzzled by the reference to a "Macedonian empire" and to Koine as its vernacular language.Alexander the Great's empire broke up after his death and was followed by the confused period of theDiadochi and then the longer-term replacement by thePtolemaic,Seleucid andAntigonid dynasties in their respective realms. Are you referrning to these collectively as the "Macedonian empire"? — clearly they were not a single entity. And moreover although Koine Greek may have been a language of administration and to some degree literature over all this area, it was certainly not the vernacular — there will have been many vernaculars, Persian, Egyptian, various languages of Anatolia ... Could we perhaps rephrase it as "the vernacular of Greece and the Greek diaspora in the Hellenistic and Roman periods?rossb 08:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The thing is that what was later known asHellenistic Koine, had started taking shape long before theDiadochoi, within Alexander's armies andduring their conquests. For that reasonKoine is also known as the "Alexandrian dialect". What I'm not sure of is whether to label it as the "official" or the "vernacular" language of the Empire and the Hellenistic World. In a way it was partly both, as in the official language of some regions (e.g. Indo-Greek Kingdoms and Egypt) and the vernacular of others (e.g. Asia Minor). I thinkHellenistic Koine deserves an article of its own to clarify this.Miskin
As a note to later edits:
* development of the voiceless aspirated stop consonants — theta, phi and chi — to voiceless fricatives
* development of the voiced stop consonants — delta, beta and gamma — to voiced fricatives
* simplification of the system of vowels and diphthongs.
Those are not changes from ancient and modern Greek, there more like differences betweenAttic and other ancient Greek dialects. What I'm saying is that those accents pre-existed in ancient Greek dialects, but they only came to light through their absorption intoKoine. Don't fall into the common trap to think thatAttic is the official Greek language of Antiquity. Today it might be the default for "Classic Greek" classes, but back then it nothing more than a mere Greek dialect. I don't think those points are worth mentioned in that context because they don't characterise modern Greek in particular, as they're changes that took place in ancient times. This is why I think that a better article aboutHellenistic Koine is needed, as it's the fusion of many ancient Greek dialects and the most important stage in the history of the Greek language (I might take care of it myself).Miskin
In either case, I would suggest that the phrase "Macedonian Empire" is anappropriate.rossb 14:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't understant why. Isn't that what it's called?Miskin
On my part, I made the point to emphasize that modern Greek does not directly descent from ancient greek, mostly to counteract official Greek propaganda.
Το πολύ το τάκα-τάκα κάνει το παιδί μαλάκα. If you're a "computer scientist" then maybe it's best to occupy yourself withprogramming languages instead of spoken ones.
And if you're a wikipedian, dwse ipografi. Like this: --~~~~. Re paides, mi rixnete prosvoles kai prokliseis, apla dwste ton kalitero sas eauto. --www.doc03:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "Tsakonic" to "Tsakonian" because nobody says "Tsakonic" in English. I don't want to start a massive edit war, but you have to realize how bad it sounds in English - and that it conflicts with Wikipedia guidelines. I *know* that Τσακωνικά or Τσακωνική διάλεκτος is the correct form in Greek, but this isEnglish. Like it or not, "Greece" is the standard name for Hellas (or Ellas, or Ellada) in English - the latter name being used mainly by poets - and the word "Tsakonic" doesn't exist at all. If you want to make "Tsakonic" productive in English, you're going to have to get published and wait for it to filter into tertiary sources like Wikipedia. Until then, we have to observeWikipedia:Avoid neologisms. --Jpbrenna18:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could people interested in this article please have a look at a discussion I instigated atTalk:Greek language, regarding a proposed restructuring of the whole series of Greek-related language articles. Thanks!Fut.Perf.☼07:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Article names in Wikipedia are usually nouns. So, we would say: "Greek is a beautiful language", where "Greek" is a noun. The correct translation of this is "τα Ελληνικά" or η "el:Ελληνική γλώσσα". The second form is the more formal one and is also the one used in the Greek Wikipedia. Similarly for the dialects such as
AtModern Greek#Consonants, it says that the letter Ρρ is generally pronounced a trill, and is pronounced a flap in an intervocalic position. Are you sure, because I don't think a trill ever occurs in Greek. --Tzekai11:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re. the recent additions about other languages with synthetic passives: The Irish category in question is not a "passive" in the true sense but an "impersonal" form; I don't know if it is etymologically related to an old passive or not (it might). The north Germanic synthetic passives are a recent innovation, as far as I know, so it wouldn't be correct to say that these languages "preserve" that category.Fut.Perf.☼17:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
the tonos in the transliterations of kallimera and kallispera are on the second from the end when the greek has 3rd from the end.
I've never seen this one being listed as a Greek dialect. The way I see it, its relation to modern Greek is same as that of Yiddish to German.Miskin22:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also I think the "Examples" sections looks silly and outdated. I suggest to remove it.Miskin23:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "loanwords from Turkish" to "Ottoman Turkish", since historically these loanwords were added to Greek during the Ottoman era, so it seemed historically more accurate; plus, some are ultimately of persian or arab origin, adding to their Ottoman Turkish sense (I wonder if some became defunct in Turkish after the Kemal reforms ? ). Can someone link the word directly to theOttoman Turkish language page, so that it takes you directly there and not to the disambiguation page? Thanks !
Has anyone considered bringing this interesting article up to GA or FA standard? It would probably need a bit of copyediting & a lot more inline citations—but in general it strikes me that it has the makings of a first-class reference article.
The section onGeographic distribution would benefit from a table giving some idea of the relative sizes of the Greek-speaking populations in that long list of countries.
Phonology Some explanation of the IPA diacritics in [e̞] and [o̞] would be useful. As far as I can see, these diacritics don't appear in what is presumably a more specialized article,Modern Greek phonology.
I agree that the phrasebook examples at the end of the article should go. Perhaps they could be relegated to a separate article (Modern Greek phrases??). --NigelG (or Ndsg) |Talk11:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Turkish language had exactly the same sort of list, which they have moved toList of Turkish phrases, replacing it with apoem as an example. Why not do the same for Greek? It would be nice to include aCavafy poem as an example. --NigelG (or Ndsg) |Talk12:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, in bad English:
(Geographical distribution)During the last years, Modern Greek has become the language of all high educated people of Balkans[citation needed] and the regional lingua franca that all immigrants from Balkan countries have transmitted back to their countries and all significant universities have introduced in their schedule. Another factor of this language distribution is the financial control of Balkans by Greek companies[citation needed] that prefer employees speaking Modern Greek.216.254.71.25
In the Balkans, as anywhere in Europe, there is no lingua franca (that is, between peoples with mutually incomprehensible mother tongues) but English. This will be even more so in the future. Greek is an isolated language - one can hardly imagine how a "highly educated" Bulgarian would converse in modern Greek with a Serb or a Croat, as their own languages are mutually comprehensible, not to speak of Bulgarian and Macedonian, historically the same language. Even more exotic would be to imagine a Turk conversing in Greek with an Albanian. All highly educated Balkan people (with the possible exception of Francophone Romanians and Italophone Albanians) would converse in English if they had no other common language.
The Greek colleagues should bear in mind that today, Greek is spoken - and the Greek alphabet is used - by (let's take the claims in the article at face value) 14-17 million people, while Slavic languages are spoken by more than 300 million, and the "Bulgarian" alphabet* (the Cyrillic alphabet originated most likely in present-day north-eastern Bulgaria) - by 280 million. Russian is a de facto regional lingua franca in much of eastern (and parts of central) Europe, the Transcaucasus and central Asia, forming a circle that Greese is no part of. Turkish is also a regional lingua franca between persons of Turkish/Turkic background and "Turkish" Roma in the Balkans, the Black Sea region and the Caucasus.
(User talk:216.254.71.25)16:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you; removing in a second.216.254.71.25 (talk)18:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding these reference additions by user 150.140.229.171:
(1) Which changes exactly do the figures "3rd c. BC to 10th AD" refer to? Certainly not all of those features that make "Modern" Greek "modern". I guess the source may be referring to the iotacistic vowel changes, but that's only one small part of the whole story. (2) please learn to cite sources properly. What is "After Antiquity By Margaret Alexiou"? A book entitledAfter Antiquity? In that case, we need publication place and year, plus publisher if possible. Please cite something like: "Alexiou, Margaret (19xx).After Antquity. Place: Publisher".
Fut.Perf.☼15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am very skeptical of any statement which says Modern Greek was not made by artificially altering Koine. Do you mean to imply or state this?--173.21.19.155 (talk)18:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What dialect is the closest in areas of phonology, grammar, sytnax, and lexicon to Biblical Koine Greek.—Precedingunsigned comment added by24.57.59.196 (talk)21:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The name "Ρομαίικα" (romeika) is a historic name used today only as a colloquialism and should therefore not appear in the infobox. Also, the attribute "Nea" is used only as an opposition to Ancient Greek when clarification is needed; the language is called simply "Ellinika" in most contexts. Andreas (T)22:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have simplified the phonetic transcription scheme used in this article, replacing the overly narrow[e̞o̞ʝ] and the recently added[ä] with the simpler and perfectly adequate[eojä] respectively. This is in line with general practice in the literature, e.g. Holton & Philippaki-Warburton (1997) and others.Fut.Perf.☼06:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello All,
I am new to editing on wiki, and am not that good of a writer. However I found that there is something missing from this page. I am first generation Greek American, and both my parents are from the Ionian Island of Zakynthos "Zante". I know for a fact that there is a specific dialect of the seven Island chain. I have heard many words used, some by my parents, and more by my grandmothers generation. It is from the strong influence that Venice had on the Islands for so many years. I have a Zakynthian dictionary, if that would help, but would to get a category put in to represent the dialect of the Island. Any advice?
Thanks,Feradotd— Precedingunsigned comment added byFeradotd (talk •contribs)22:49, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello All,My name is Feradotd. I am a first generation Greek American. Both my parents are from the Island of Zakynthos (Zante). I know that this Island has a dialect of Greek, that has a lot of Italian "Venetian" loan words as well as others that may just be from the Island or other influences. I have a Zakynthian dictionary, and have heard the dialect spoken by my grandparents, and there generation, as well as words used by my family. I have also been lead to believe that the whole of the Ionian Islands shared this dialect, being that they were well under Venetian rule for a long period of time. The French, English, and Turks all had these Islands at one point or another, and there were also other Italian Noble families that held them from time to time. All of which I am sure has had an effect of the words borrowed. I do not know how or even think I am capable of writing this for the article, but feel it is an important piece of information for the article to be whole.
Thank you— Precedingunsigned comment added byFeradotd (talk •contribs)22:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Feradotd,I am a second generation Greek living in Melbourne, Australia. My parents are from Ithaki in the Ionian but they left as young children so they don´t know much Ionian dialect. If you know any phrases or words in this dialect I would love to know. Eυχαριστώ.— Precedingunsigned comment added by110.174.176.173 (talk)09:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Two issues with the claim that polytonic remains popular among intellectual circles. First of all, there is no reference to back it up. Second, in recent times, I have only encountered very few (as in less than a handful) intellectuals who insist on writing in polytonic; there are, however, nationalists and members/publications of the far-right and the Greek supremacist/nationalist mysticist faction (such as Adonis Georgiades' "Elliniki Agogi" magazine) who do insist on using the polytonic. Or, I should say, mangling it, because they don't even know how to use it.— Precedingunsigned comment added by2.85.69.194 (talk)16:56, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What consonant is [ɡ̄] meant to represent? As far as I can tell, this is not official IPA usage, unless it's meant to represent a voiced velar stop with a retracted tongue root - but wouldn't that just be a uvular [ɢ]?
If [ɡ̄] is meant to represent a geminate, standard IPA practice is doubling the consonant [ɡɡ] or (less commonly) adding the length diacritic [ɡː].— Precedingunsigned comment added byYatınǫ̀daà (talk •contribs)15:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I added a link to a free service where a Greek teacher answers any question about the Greek language ([2]). It is a small Questions and Answers forum does not even require a registration to ask a question. The answers seem good.
The link was removed as "commercial link".
The small forum is indeed part of a commercial forum. However the service is completely free and unique, I have not found anything like this on the web.
The following is also part of a commercial website, however it is in the "external links" section of the article:
Not sure about the rules exactly. I suggest we keep both links. What do you think?Leontaurus (talk)08:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This link is also commercial. It contains payed advertisements:English–Greek Dictionary (Modern Greek)Leontaurus (talk) 08:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)Leontaurus (talk)09:03, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody has an opinion on this issue?Leontaurus (talk)20:41, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Which points of the article need additional citations for verification and which sources are the most reliable in order to do so?Anonfreud (talk)11:44, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I added an audio of spoken Modern Greek in the Phonology sector of the article.Anonfreud (talk)09:43, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the Monastic Republic of Mount Athos not stated under "Official Status" "Official Language in"?It should be mentioned there!Informationskampagne (talk)15:47, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know for a fact that Welsh and Irish have synthetic passives as well, possibly other Celtic languages too. Maybe this should be changed to "Modern Greek is one of a very few languages to retain a synthetic passive".— Precedingunsigned comment added by09.145.27.207 (talk •contribs)23:38, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
