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For a June 2005 deletion debate over this page seeWikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of famous Holocaust survivors

This should be moved to Article Milestones, somehow.The Mysterious El Willstro (talk)00:35, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I wonder if there is a pagecataloging notable children (or progeny, generally) of Holocaust survivors, and if not, perhaps this page can be amended to include them. It's a bit of a dark thought, but it occurs to me that we in the West have benefited invaluably by the Jewish diaspora and would be bereft of many of our brightest thinkers had some many Jews not fled Germany during the rise of Hitler -- Einstein being a consummate example. Peter Singer, the Princeton philosopher, comes to mind -- his family fled to Australia to escape persecution. Not many religious Jews are a fan of his, but Norman Finkelstein is likewise from a family who fled Germany. Only those two immediately come to mind, but there must be many more. What about Woody Allen? Noam Chomksy? Lawrence Krauss? Richard Feynman? Brian Greene? I know Carl Sagan had family in Germany during the war and it affected him. It's a morbid fact, but it is a fact that Peter Singer would likely be writing in German had his family not fled persecution. Dark or not, the history of and impetus for the Jewish diaspora is integral to American history and many interested in the subject will find such a catalog useful and edifying.

I thought I read that Abraham Foxman (current president of the Anti-Defamation League, ADL) was a Holocaust survivor. That he was secreted away from his Jewish family as a young child (infant?) and baptized, raised Roman Catholic, and then later re-embraced his Jewish heritage sometime after the war. Would he count?

I was just on Foxman's page, and he is referred to there as a holocaust survivor. I don't know if he is, however, which is why I searched for "holocaust survivor" to find out its meaning. I could only find this page, and it doesn't provide a set of criteria of who should or shouldn't be listed. -Matthew238 (talk)13:28, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Born 1926 in Chrzanów, Poland. Died December 11, 2018, Hillsboro Oregon. His father was murdered September 11,1939 by German soldiers. He was an orphan at 13 because his mother died when he was young. He was forbidden to go to school, walk in certain streets, pray in a house of worship, and he had to bow to passing Germans. At 14 the Germans deported his older brother to a camp. At 15 he was deported to Blechhammer. He survived 5 different concentration camps they were: Blechhammer, Brande, Gross-Maslowitz, Kletendorf, and Waldenburg over the course of three yrs. He was liberated by the Russian army at age 18, he weighed 80 pounds. Currently lives in Portland, Oregon, USA. Wrote "From a Name to a Number". Often gives talks on the Holocaust.— Precedingunsigned comment added by71.59.196.194 (talk)04:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

someone needs to change it!— Precedingunsigned comment added by71.214.120.110 (talk)02:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of sorting this page by religion of the survivor. What's the significance of Johan Huizinga, etc. being Christians, and are we going to sort the whole list by Christian/Jew?Dvyost 16:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. As far as the topic is concerned, being a Jew at that time and place was enough to become a victim of the Holocoust, but being Christian was not.Karol 17:08, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Having not heard from anyone else, then, I'm pulling the Christian tags.Dvyost 29 June 2005 00:02 (UTC)

Why is she on this list? I have great respect for her - but as far as I know she were never interned by the Nazi regime. She got away to the US, and I find it a bit strange to find her here.Ulflarsen23:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

According to the definitions on the top of the page, anyone who was alive during WWII and was a Jew is automatically labeled as a survivor. I find the notion to be utterly ridiculous (since Nazi policy was focused on purging any non-aryan races, that would make 90% or so of the world (note: the preceding statement is a bit sarcastic, so don't take the 90% figure at face value)) a "Holocaust survivor", but whatever.189.146.98.49 (talk)13:34, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why they survived?

• Roman Haubenstock-Ramati(de:Roman Haubenstock-Ramati) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך14:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• György Ligeti

I have recently seen two people described as Holocaust survivors who were never in any concentration camps, both of whom fled occupied territories during or before the war (Felix Rohatyn andPaul Laszlo). I tend to think of "Holocaust survivor" as being synonymous with "concentration camp survivor". What is the criteria? -Will Beback04:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A LOT of people, particularly communists and Jews were shot during the "Ostfeldzug". Many villages were razed and rubbled. Most of these victims never made it to a concentration camp ("making it to a concentration camp" sounds extremely wrong, but I don't know how else to put it). Surely, these are also victims of the Holocaust. Not all holocaust victims died in the gas chambers. Even among the concentration camp victims, people died during evacuation marches, from mass shootings, from exhaustion, from rampant disease, from euthanasia in hospital barracks, from medical experiments, often also in hospital barracks, from beatings, etc. etc. Finally, a lot of victims just froze or starved to death. NB: TheZyklon B gas chamber execution programme was only ever developed because many of the Nazi officials found the mass shootings too revolting and wanted a "cleaner" way to murder their victims.

That said, I agree that directly escaping death at a mass shooting or surviving a concentration camp is more serious than managing to get a visa out of the country amd leaving, possibly without ever experiencing physical violence. However, consider this: If you suddenly had to leave your entire current life and friends and family behind and travel to a far away foreign country, knowing then or later finding out that all of your family and friends were gassed and shot and your entire previous life and surroundings are completely destroyed, and you were one of the few fortunate ones who were given a rare chance to escape and survive -- would you not also consider that intensely traumatic?

Again, all that said, I would agree that a distinction between concentration camp survivors, survivors of other mass murder incidents and other survivors and refugees may be useful. As always, more information is better. However, I think whatever lists or categories are made, it will be important to really emphasize, possibly also in the list titles, that these are just a fewnotable survivors, and that these lists are not and can never be exhaustive (unless someone knows all the names of all these millions and millions of people).86.56.48.1215:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the termHolocaust survivor does not now mean the same thing as its etymology would suggest. After all, strictly speaking, it means anyone not killed by a holocaust. There is an attempt at definition ofHolocaust in the article of the same name here, but the strong views of those interested in the subject matter mean that the term cannot be tied down to just one meaning. I suggest that for the termHolocaust survivor to be useful, it should be inclusive rather than exclusive and should make reference to those not in concentration camps, or not of the Hebrew faith, even if such individuals are not included in the list.DavidFarmbrough10:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think more discussion on the definition should ensue. The April 20th makes good arguments. I disagree with the third, Oct 18th comment- strictly speaking, a holocaust surivor is someone who went through the holocaust and then survived (following your logic, you could consider Churchill a holocaust survivor). At the same time, the definition also carries legal implications (ok, i hope no lawyer or judge ever use wiki in their arguments...), ie who receives holocaust survivor retribution? In any case, any definition carries big political implications for those who pay reparations and those who receive them.--Patpecz (talk)15:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Died in a gas chamber? Who died in a gas chamber?

• Ernest Mandel
• Günther Weisenborn (de:Günther Weisenborn)
• Wolf Krakowski
• Robert Lee Morris

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך05:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Flory Van Beek /Flory van Beek
• Paul László
• Martin_Gray_(Holocaust_survivor) Why isn't he listed ?—Precedingunsigned comment added byThePro (talk •contribs)20:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that this list does not include Marion Blumenthal Lazan, who wrote the book Four Perfect Pebbles, and her family; her father Walter Blumenthal (who died shortly after they were liberated from typhus), her mother Ruth Blumenthal Meyberg, and her brother Albert Blumenthal. Marion's book is amazing as it talks about the Blumenthal families experieces, told mostly by Marion, but with a lot of help from Ruth (who is in her nineties now and lives near Marion in New York).

I added H. Fenigstein. His work in psychotherapy was extremely radical and effective. If any question leave message on this page. (G.S.-Canada)

There was also a famous jew , whos name i do not remember , but who denies the existence of the gas chambers.If you know , write hes name to the list please.

It's probably tme to introduce some more structure into this article. Better to organize the entries by nationality, or by occupation. I guess the choice should be the same as inList of Holocaust victims, which currently has both.Karol06:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a list which shows the location of survivors? I read an article that claimed there were/are more in the US and UK than Israel. Is this true?86.17.246.7500:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

... the social democrat (SPD) was imprisoned in 1933 ("Schutzhaft"), had to spend some time in a concentration camp, then a regular prison, was released half a year later when he promised to discontinue his political activities, which was long before any concentration camps became extermination camps. He was imprisoned again in 1944 after the July 20 Plot, then was released a few days later as he had nothing to do with it. Not trying to be nitpicking or anything, but technically he's not a holocaust survivor, but a concentration camp survivor (there's a category for that) --Inza02:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This list should be cleaned up thouroughly, and orginized in the same way asList of victims of Nazism.Karol12:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, this is broken. I'm not sure how it can be fixed. There's still no clear understanding here as to how this list adds anything. We've got two problems - what is a 'survivor' and what is a 'famous person'?Baggie21:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even worse, this list may make it seem that some people are more "important" than others. I find the whole thing a bit nauseating.189.146.98.49 (talk)13:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has some definitions of Notable people. They are not called Famous people. SeeWP:Notability. The standard for lists generally is that there must be an article written about them first. Yours,GeorgeLouis (talk)06:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not quite correct. There need not be an article written about the person. The criterion mentioned is the criterion for an article, not for an entry on a list. For a list, it is sufficient -- as an alternative -- if the names have appropriate refs.--Epeefleche (talk)06:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I forget his name, but one of the professors killed in the Virginia Tech massacre was a Holocaust survivor. Would he be worth mentioning here?

He's worth mentioning but maybe take away the description that follows "scientist and professor"?

Can someone please clean this article of the vulgarity? I am unsure of how to do so. Thanks.—Precedingunsigned comment added byEeedlef (talk •contribs)01:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"turkey salad parts of Europe" What is this supposed to even mean? Please remove.
Biff MaGriff (talk)17:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove A-Rod and Derek Jeter.—Precedingunsigned comment added by68.145.107.13 (talk)02:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These people dont have a wiki page and dont have a reference that atleast says that they are a holocaust survivor. I have took them off the list for know. add a reference next to one of the following below if you have found a source and I will determine.--Nick Ornstein (talk)12:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Country of Birth	Name	Birth Date	Age	Sex
Israel	Birencwajg, Mieczyslaw	1926	99	M
	Hawford, Daniel			M
	Parliament, Kyle			M
	Henning, Jennifer			F
	Shrock, Joshua Howard	1923	102	M

Country of Birth	Name	Birth Date	Death Date	Age	Sex
Ukraine	Czuchrak, Ivan	1909	1944	35	M

• Abraham Mosze Bernstein
• Abraham Cwi Dawidowicz
• David Eisenstadt[1]
• Marysia-Miriam
• Eisenstadt Israel Fajwiszis
• Tony Canbell
• Mordechaj Gebirtig
• Jakub Gerstein
• Bronislaw Gimpel
• Olivia Booth

Jozef Kowalski was held in aconcentration camp inWorld War II. He is 109 years old, born inPoland on 2 February 1900. He is aPolish-Soviet War veteran.

If you go toList of surviving veterans of World War I, under World War I-era veterans, in the notes column it says: Held inconcentration camp.

So...should we add him to this list under the military category?--Nick Ornstein (talk)19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

... doesn't lead to a page. This needs follow-up.--Deborahjay (talk)10:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Several people (Leopold Pfefferberg,Simon Wiesenthal,Adam Kozłowiecki) were listed as born in Italy, contradicting their biographies. Good faith errors maybe? I haven't got the time or expertise to check the whole list but there might be more such mistakes.Lfh (talk)15:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just as well as Tadeusz Borowski (polish writer, listed as ukrainian), Hanna Pravda (czechoslovakian actress, listed as italian).—Precedingunsigned comment added byPhunkracy (talk •contribs)09:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Austria-Hungarian Empire used to be it's own country, but some time ago, it broke apart and became a part of different countries. Just see the countries in the infobox that are now the originalAustria-Hungary. --Nick Ornstein (talk)20:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• • http://judaism.about.com/od/holocaust/ss/ausch_tour_10.htm

• Name:Eliezer Hauser Shimoni
• Born: Israel?
• Info: Survived Auschwitz and Death March. Founding member of Israeli agricultural settlement (moshav).

Zvonimir Vidas born 1929 death 1996, CroatianCite error:There are<ref> tags on this page without content in them (see thehelp page).— Precedingunsigned comment added by78.3.141.232 (talk)22:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

--Nick Ornstein (talk)20:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An issue for discussion: should we also include people who survived concentration camps set up by other Axis powers in Europe? For example, theJasenovac concentration camp was set up an run solely by theIndependent State of Croatia and not by Nazi Germany; the same goes for Italian concentration camps ofRab andGonars, set up for Yugoslav civilians. I think survivors of the first one should be included, as Jesenovac functioned just as Nazi camps, but I'm not sure about the Italian ones: they were not extermination camps, and nobody was sent there for the sole reason of belonging to a certain ethnic, religious etc. group; the inmates were either "political prisoners" (in a very broad sense of anybody who either opposed or was thought to oppose Fascist policies), and civilians who were interned as part of the fight against partisan resistance. The condition in both camps (especially in Rab) were appalling and thousands of inmates died (an approximate 20% death rate): but the question is if we should include the survivors of these camps in the list of Holocaust victims. What do you guys think? Best,Viator slovenicus (talk)01:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why have flags when some of these countries were not nation-states during the war (Ukraine) and others had an entirely different flag at that time? Flags add nothing to the list, so without objection, I shall remove them. Sincerely,GeorgeLouis (talk)22:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I think that having flags is a nice addition and makes the list easier to scan, but if they are obscuring the nature of national boundaries/states as they were during the war, then it is better that they should go. I don't think this necessarily requires an RfC - just bebold and implement the change, and see if anyone objects. All the best —Mr. Stradivarius^♫14:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you, Straddie, I appreciate your comment. The Holocaust is fraught with sensitivities, so I believe I will wait for more comments. After all, somebody took the time to add the flags, so I don't want to be too quick. Nevertheless, if no other comment comes up, I will follow your suggestion. Or somebody will. Yours,GeorgeLouis (talk)05:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the flags are gone. It makes the page look less festive, which is a Good Thing. Also I deleted the non-Notable people, and I hope those who are interested in them will see fit to write articles and put them back in this list. Yours,GeorgeLouis (talk)06:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

George -- you deleted a number of names that, though they did not have articles (which they are not required to have, contrary to your assertion), had refs. Which suffices. I therefore reverted. If you deleted any more that I did not catch, please restore them as well. As you made 12 revisions seriatum, it was difficult to follow. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk)06:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can see from the diff since my vandalism revert,here, that only flags have now been removed or changed to country names.Mark Hurd (talk)16:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I have no strong feeling as to the flags. I recognize that policy may well be not to have them, and widespread practice throughout the Project may well be the opposite.--Epeefleche (talk)16:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The normal policy is to list only Notable people, and the definition of Notable is that they have an article already written in WP. Sorry, but I don't intend to follow this debate any more, so I am not going to cite chapter and verse here. Others can settle the conflict, if there is one. Thanks to all. Sincerely, your friend,GeorgeLouis (talk)00:59, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That'snot policy at all. Did you simply make that up? The policy is stated quite clearly atWP:LISTPEOPLE. It states: "A person may be included in a list of people if ... The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement....If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability...."--Epeefleche (talk)02:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I feel the title is a drop misleading, if not overly vague. My maternal grandparents are both Holocaust survivors, so I have nothing against the article itself. That being said, however, I feel it would be more appropriate to name the article "List ofnotable Holocaust survivors." Any thoughts?KirkCliff2 (talk)11:44, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone look at editing the definition - "initiated by Adolf Hitler and carried out by his followers of the Nazi regime, in order to terrorize and persecute Jews to their deaths" is too colloquial, vague and POV.Royalcourtier (talk)04:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Business is no less important than the categories already included. There should be a section of Holocaust survivors who became prominent businesspersons.Nicmart (talk)22:19, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A friend of a friend told me of an interesting case and I am wondering whether this person, who was Jewish, would be considered a Holocaust survivor. When war broke out on September 1, 1939, the ship he was on went to England. The same situation also applied to most of the Polish Navy inOperation Peking, in addition to any Jewish pilots in the Polish air force. I hope this is not seen as too much of a forum-type question because it pertains to the definition of "Holocaust survivor." Is a person considered a survivor if they left Poland at the very beginning of the war?Roches (talk)07:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Star_(novel)this other article has some info, not sure if the survivors in it should be added.Daisy134 (talk)19:23, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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I couldn't find a reliable source for Saul Hoüben, so I have moved his entry here. He was in the music section. Hopefully someone else can find documentation.Leschnei (talk)14:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

|[[Saul (Paul) Hoüben|Hoüben, Saul (Paul)]]|align=center|M|{{dts|link=off|format=dmy|1922|05|15}}|{{dts|link=off|format=dmy|1982|01|22}} (61)| Belgium|-

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Delete the names of deceased survivors and keep only the names and details of currently living Holocaust survivors

oppose they are holocaust survivors, always worth being mentioned. If you argue to split the list: this is not really necessary, since it will not grow any more.Nillurcheier (talk)15:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

== Person who isn't mentioned in a source ==

I can't find any source outside this list and the French translation of it that mentions a person named Logan Fuga or something the like either as a Holocaust survivor or as a football player for Borussia Dortmund. And I never came across a German/Jewish/German-Jewish person called either "Logan" or "Fuga" (the last name could be Italian or Hungarian?). So until someone finds a reliable source for him, I will delete this entry.Stefanbw (talk)19:55, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed several red linked names with no sources, or whose only source was a youtube video about them speaking at a school. There were millions of holocaust survivors, so we have to be diligent about article bloat.Bkatcher (talk)16:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vladimir Munk, Czech microbiologist, educator. Achievements include patents in field. Recipient State prize, Czechoslovak Government, 1968, Chancellor's award, State University of New York, 1981; grant, Chase Chemical Company, 1970. Member of American Society Microbiology.2601:547:C401:AC0:848:FD51:BA0C:267B (talk)22:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article usedmy ormdy date formats? ShouldMOS:RETAIN/MOS:DATEVAR orMOS:TIES apply here?Orange sticker📘 (talk)12:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, let's not get it twisted:WP:DATETIES does not apply here, as it's been made clear many times that the date formats used in pertinent non-English-speaking countries is not included whatsoever in the "ties" thatWP:DATETIES is talking about. The question would be "do we want to change this from the long-standingWP:DATEVAR or not?", as that is the only pertinent guideline. I see no justifiable reason to do so rooted in how anything else is done around here, other than potentially spite given the recent friction over two editors who did not understandWP:DATEVAR.Remsense ‥ 论12:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:DATEVAR statesunless there are reasons for changing it based on the topic's strong ties to a particular English-speaking country, or consensus on the article's talk page the topic here has no particular ties to any English speaking country, so I am interested in what the consensus would be. I think these MOS guidelines are somewhat problematic regarding dates, as different language styles and spellings vary between "English speaking countries" but the MDY date format is unique to the United States and so defaulting to this leads tosystemic bias.Orange sticker (talk)12:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have to be clear: the emphasis you're wringing out ofWP:DATEVAR is not a straightforward reading of the passage. Your reasons given, whether they are the case or not, are emphatically not why we generally decide to change things, or else the entire point behind DATEVAR would be nullified—the point is that unless there are strong ties, it is an even playing field; this must be accepted.Remsense ‥ 论13:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And you're also pretty trivially misinformed about MDY being US-only: again, this is something that a plain reading of WP:DATEVAR would correct you on.Remsense ‥ 论13:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Is this the part where I put my cards on the table and state that my personal preference, as an American, is pretty solidly DMY?)Remsense ‥ 论13:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think these MOS guidelines are somewhat problematic regarding dates That's a discussion to have atWT:DATE. Do you have a reason to change the dates in this article beyond the fact that you dislike what the MOS says? The use of MDY dates in this list goes back toApril 2006; I don't see the point of changing it now unless there's a compelling reasonCaeciliusinhorto-public (talk)14:48, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open minded, only came across this article as it became the subject of editwarring, though I have to say it seems jarring and unnecessary to see US date formats imposed on an article that's basis is an event that occurred in Europe. That's why I'm seeking opinions and trying to find if there's a consensus, inline with the MOS guideline.Orange sticker (talk)14:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I want to say this as directly and plainly as possible: the argument you just articulated as the reason for starting this discussion is a crystal clear example of actualtendentious editing—like, what the page will actually describe if one reads it—as you are directly ignoring the spirit and letter of what the MOS clearly says in favor of rectifying your own personal tastes and preferences, disputes of the kind the passage was written to avoid.Remsense ‥ 论14:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've gathered from the MOS Talk thread you posted in ANI[2], the MOS guidelines are there to avoid "churn" and "edit warring" and yet that is what you are participating in by making large numbers of reverts without proper discussion. I ask you toassume good faith with myself and other editors.Orange sticker (talk)15:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's only what you can understand them to be for if you ignore the fact that they are guidelines, and hence generally not optional and meant to hold some water.

What on earth is the point of a guideline that says "retain the existing format unless XYZ applies" if people can just mow down the previous DATEVAR in whatever niche they like, and any perfunctory pushback against it—against behavior that's expressly unacceptable—is what's going to be treated as disruptive? What basis as written in policy do you have for that? None save your personal tastes as to what isjarring and unnecessary, and that's simply not what we're here to talk about.Remsense ‥ 论15:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The guidelines are ambiguous and open to interpretation - I believe in this case that "XYZ" does apply, which is why I'm using the talk page and not making any edits of this sort. You have called other editor's behaviour "expressly unacceptable" but is that really true? Are you certain they were even aware ofWP:DATEVAR when they made what are otherwise intuitive and common sense edits?Orange sticker (talk)15:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BothMOS:TIES andMOS:DATETIES refer toEnglish-speaking nations. This article doesn't have strong ties to any particular English-speaking nation. Various Holocaust survivors moved to English-speaking nations, primarily the US and UK, after the war; others stayed in their home countries or moved to Israel, but there is no clear tie to one particular English-speaking nation, and so I cannot see how TIES/DATETIES apply. On the other hand,MOS:RETAIN,MOS:DATERET, etc. clearly do apply.Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk)12:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:STYLEVAR applies, regardless of whetherMOS:TIES does. Separately, I can't see any reason whyMOS:TIES would apply here.– Closed Limelike Curves (talk)20:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, wait, so the argument is because the Holocaust was in Europe, it should use European date styles? Hmm. I think I lean towards agreeing, but from what I can tell it doesn'tstrictly fall underMOS:DATEVAR. That means you need to look for consensus (ideally an RfC) before such a change @Orange sticker.

On the other hand I don't care.– Closed Limelike Curves (talk)01:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I would like to suggest changing the date format to DMY (e.g.10 December 2024, notDecember 10, 2024), as this is the date format used in the article aboutthe Holocaust itself.--Marginataen (talk)14:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, it's been more than a week. If another week passes without any objections, I'll probably just go ahead and make the change. Merry Christmas!Marginataen (talk)13:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, you won't, because you're aware of my outstanding objection that there's insufficiently good reason for it. If being alike others in a set were generally a good enough reason, then the guidelines would not be written the way they are.Remsense ‥ 论22:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in favour of the change you suggest, after taking into consideration thediscussion above. AlthoughWP:MOS specifically and illogically refers only to 'English-speaking countries', this article is about Europeans and so the US date format looks wrong.Orange sticker (talk)15:32, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, the Holocaust took place in Europe, in countries of languages using the DMY format, with the closest English-speaking country (the UK) also using DMY.Marginataen (talk)16:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is not a valid interpretation ofMOS:DATETIES. You have been specifically told as such. It is not acceptable to ignore the fact our MOS expressly does not prefer one format over the other by default. With that in mind, you need an actual reason, and merely "Europe" ain't it. In my estimation, there is no valid reason, and this exercise is shallow and tendentious. I'm sorry, but if it merely "looks wrong" to you, the MOS requires that you get over it.Remsense ‥ 论10:21, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, I interpret the MOS tries to apply the most appropriate date format for an article and I assume the specification of "English speaking countries" which completely ignores that rest of the world (besides the USA) uses the same date format is an oversight, which I'm happy to raise at the appropriate noticeboard or RfC.Orange sticker (talk)16:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've linked the previous discussions about this. Keep in mind any future discussions will likewise be in that context. Do you dare reset the counter?Remsense ‥ 论20:17, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many Holocaust survivors are e.g. authorand speaker, so how would we solve this? Duplicate or reference? Making one big table and just moving the "occupation" or categorie, which is currently in the section title in a column would be my solution. Also, the distinction between deceased and living could be moved into a column. This will make everything way clearer. Users can then sort by occupation if they wish and achieve the same result in a more organized way then now.

MethAnkauf2 (talk)16:02, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am able and willing to put this into practice.MethAnkauf2 (talk)16:03, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Simply put, some less-than-notable people have been added to this article. The point of this article is not to list every Holocaust survivor who has ever given an interview or written a book, but rather list those who went on to become notable in one way or another. While some Holocaust speakers are very much notable, not all are, and whether they are notable enough should be determined by if the individual has received continuous coverage from sources that are not exclusively local or dedicated to remembering/researching the Holocaust, the same criteria used for whether they are notable enough to have a Wikipedia page. I'm not going to delete all non-Wikipedia page people if there are objecting opinions, but please explain what you think the criteria for inclusion should be.Atriskofmistake (talk)01:15, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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