This is thetalk page for discussing improvements to theIranian peoples article. This isnot a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.
Iranian peoples is aformer featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, checkthe nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating toethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related toIran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, pleasejoin the project where you can contribute to thediscussions and help with ouropen tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Kurdistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related toKurdistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.KurdistanWikipedia:WikiProject KurdistanTemplate:WikiProject KurdistanKurdistan
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to beinactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Azerbaijan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofAzerbaijan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.AzerbaijanWikipedia:WikiProject AzerbaijanTemplate:WikiProject AzerbaijanAzerbaijan
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Tajikistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofTajikistan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.TajikistanWikipedia:WikiProject TajikistanTemplate:WikiProject TajikistanTajikistan
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofSyria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Ossetia, a project which is currently considered to beinactive.OssetiaWikipedia:WikiProject OssetiaTemplate:WikiProject OssetiaOssetia
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Iraq, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofIraq on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.IraqWikipedia:WikiProject IraqTemplate:WikiProject IraqIraq
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofPakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage ofTurkey andrelated topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can jointhe discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expandAfghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit theproject page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to thediscussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan
This article is within the scope of theWikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related toWestern Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit theproject page for more details.Western AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Western AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Western AsiaWestern Asia
This article is within the scope ofWikiProject Eastern Europe, a project which is currently considered to beinactive.Eastern EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern EuropeTemplate:WikiProject Eastern EuropeEastern Europe
Thecontentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article relates topost-1978 Iranian politics, a contentious topic. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with thecontentious topics procedures before editing this page.
I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts ofGreater Iran who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on theAvestan people who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article.Kjansen86 (talk)
The section on the origins and classification of the Iranian peoples contains several inaccuracies and inconsistencies..
First, the name “Gilaki” is misused. “Gilak” refers to the people, while “Gilaki” is the language. as a native speaker of both Western and Eastern Gilaki, I can confirm this distinction.
Second, the grouping of the Gilak and Mazandarani peoples together, while separating the Talysh, is arbitrary. All three are Caspian peoples, and from a linguistic perspective, Talysh is as intelligible to a Gilak speaker as Mazandarani is.
Third, the proposed origins of the Gilak and Mazandarani peoples as “Parthian” or “Median” are speculative at best. Classical sources such as Strabo (Geography, Book 11) and Pliny the Elder (Natural History, 6.15) clearly refer to the region of modern-day Gilan as being inhabited by the Gelae and Cadusii, independent Caspian tribes. These groups are not described as being under Median rule but as contemporaneous with the Medes. The Gelae in particular are more plausibly a parallel Iranic group rather than subjects or offshoots of the Medes.
As for the claim of Parthian descent, there is no clear historical or linguistic basis for this attribution. I respectfully request that this section of the article be revised for accuracy, or that editing access be granted so that I may make the corrections myself.
The Hazaras are primarily indigenous Eastern Iranian people of Afghanistan, with Iranic and Turkic heritage forming the majority of their ancestry. Historical Mongol, Turkic, and Turco-Mongol invasions contributed some genetic and linguistic influences, but the Hazaras retained their core Eastern Iranian identity. Their dialect, Hazaragi, is Persian-based (Dari) and fully intelligible with Farsi, containing only a limited number of Mongolic and Turkic loanwords. This demonstrates that minor admixture does not replace a population’s language or cultural identity, and that the Hazaras’ Eastern Iranian heritage has remained dominant despite steppe incursions.Azra7 (talk)06:49, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Your claim is misleading. The prevailing view in scholarship stresses strong Mongolic and Turkic components in Hazara origins, with Mongolic influence being cited more often in reliable sources. If you believe there are authors supporting your position, then bring those sources - but make sure they actually meetWP:SCHOLARSHIP andWP:RS. Otherwise this is just your personal interpretation, which falls underWP:OR.KoizumiBS (talk)11:48, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While it is correct that many sources emphasize Mongolic and Turkic components in Hazara origins, there is also substantial scholarly literature demonstrating the Iranian substratum. Encyclopaedia Iranica classifies Hazāragi as a variety of eastern Persian (Dari), noting that its grammar and core lexicon are Persian, with only about 10% Turco-Mongolic loanwords (Paul 2003). Historical scholarship likewise stresses that Hazaras are not “pure Mongols” but resulted from Mongol/Turco-Mongol groups integrating with local Iranian-speaking populations (Emadi 2003). Genetic studies also show this pattern: mtDNA analyses of Hazara populations report ~52% West Eurasian maternal lineages alongside East Asian lineages (Rakha et al. 2017), while genome-wide studies demonstrate both West Eurasian (including Iranian-plateau) and East Asian components (Das et al. 2019; He et al. 2019). Taken together, the literature supports describing the Hazara as an Eastern Iranian-speaking people with significant Mongolic and Turkic genetic and lexical influences.
Citations:
Paul, Ludwig. “Hazāra iv. Hazāragi Dialect.” Encyclopaedia Iranica (2003).
Emadi, Hafizullah. “Hazāra ii. History.” Encyclopaedia Iranica (2003).
Rakha, A. et al. “mtDNA sequence diversity of Hazara ethnic group from Pakistan.” Forensic Sci Int Genet 30 (2017): e24–e30.
Das, R. et al. “Investigating the West Eurasian ancestry of Pakistani Hazaras.” Journal of Genetics 98.2 (2019): 42.
He, G. et al. “A comprehensive exploration of the genetic legacy and population structure of Central Asia.” Forensic Sci Int Genet 42 (2019): 92–101.Azra7 (talk)14:34, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody disputes that the Hazaras speak Persian. Information about their language and maternal lineages has long been covered in the Hazara article. The real issue here is origins, and the prevailing body of scholarship emphasizes significant Mongolic and Turkic components. Repeating linguistic facts already present in the article does not negate this.KoizumiBS (talk)19:20, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The aim is to reflect the substantial Eastern Iranian substratum of the Hazaras, which forms the core of their ancestry, language, and culture, alongside the well-documented Mongolic and Turkic influences. Hazaragi remains fully Persian-based, and genetic studies show both West Eurasian/Iranic and East Asian components. This supports describing Hazaras as an Eastern Iranian-speaking people with significant Mongolic and Turkic influences, rather than emphasizing one influence exclusively.Azra7 (talk)19:23, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please avoid using AI-generated text when making arguments here, as it looks highly unnatural. Could you provide a specific academic source where it is explicitly stated that Eastern Iranians formed the core of the Hazara people? A direct quotation would be necessary.KoizumiBS (talk)19:34, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This response is based on published sources, not AI. While no source uses the exact phrase “Eastern Iranians formed the core of the Hazara people,” several reliable references indicate that the Hazaras descend from local Iranian-speaking populations of central Afghanistan, who were later influenced by Mongol and Turkic groups. For example:
The Encyclopaedia Iranica notes that the Hazaras are the indigenous population of Hazarajat and have lived in the central highlands for centuries, before and during the Mongol incursions.
Other articles on Afghan ethnography describe the presence of Iranian-speaking groups in the region prior to Mongol and Turkic influence.
Taken together, these sources support the description of Hazaras as having a significant Iranian-speaking substratum, with Mongolic and Turkic admixture layered later.Azra7 (talk)19:50, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have cited multiple reliable academic sources that clearly show the Hazaras have significant Iranic ancestry, both culturally and genetically. These include references from Encyclopaedia Iranica (Paul 2003; Emadi 2003), peer-reviewed genetic studies (Rakha et al. 2017; Das et al. 2019; He et al. 2019), and linguistic evidence indicating that Hazāragi is fundamentally a Persian dialect, with only a minor presence of Mongolic and Turkic loanwords.
At this point, it seems you are the only editor here denying the relevance or significance of the Iranic component in Hazara origins, and your framing gives the impression that their ancestry is almost entirely Mongolic or Turkic, with little to no Iranic contribution — a portrayal that is not supported by the full range of scholarly literature.
No one is denying the importance of Mongolic and Turkic influences in Hazara ethnogenesis — they are well-documented. But the consistent evidence of a substantial Eastern Iranian substratum should not be dismissed or minimized. Reliable sources clearly describe the Hazaras as descending from local Iranian-speaking populations who were later influenced by Mongol and Turkic groups. That is a balanced and well-supported position in the literature, and it should be reflected accordingly.Azra7 (talk)19:55, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This still reads like AI-generated synthesis, not an academic citation. Without exact quotations from reliable sources, there’s nothing to even discuss here - perWP:RS andWP:OR, vague paraphrasing doesn’t count.KoizumiBS (talk)20:24, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Kakar (1973) considers both theories as plausible: a first contingent of Chaghatay Mongols may have arrived in the Hazārajāt from Central Asia, to be joined over time by later migrating peoples … and mixed with the local population of the area who were of Persian origin" From Encyclopaedia Iranica. From “Investigating the West Eurasian ancestry of Pakistani Hazaras” (Das, R. et al., 2019)
“Our results indicated that the likely proportion of West Eurasian ancestry was low in the Hazaras and could be attributed putatively to a combination of Steppe populations from Early/Middle Bronze Age or Middle/Late Bronze Age and the Neolithic Iranians.” From Rakha, A. et al. “mtDNA sequence diversity of Hazara ethnic group from Pakistan.” (2017)
“The population sample set showed … haplotypes belonging mainly to West Eurasian (51.72%), East & Southeast Asian (29.78%) and South Asian (18.50%) haplogroups.”
I’ve included direct quotes and citations from well-respected academic sources that show the Hazaras have Iranic (West Eurasian) ancestry. These come from peer-reviewed research and trusted encyclopedias, so they follow Wikipedia’s guidelines for reliable and verifiable information.Azra7 (talk)20:37, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You cannot present your own conclusions based on a source. We can only write exactly what the source itself states. No one denies the Iranian component. Moreover, I am already familiar with all of these sources. Both the maternal lineages and the admixture of different components have long been described in the article.KoizumiBS (talk)20:51, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome to thoroughly review and consider the direct quotations and scholarly citations I have provided. Based on the evidence presented in these reputable sources, it is well established that the Hazaras are not purely Mongol, Turkic, or Turko-Mongol, but rather have significant Iranic ancestry alongside their Turco-Mongolic ancestry. I urge you to evaluate the provided academic research carefully and acknowledge the substantiated nature of these claims.Azra7 (talk)20:42, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Given that I have provided sufficient evidence, credible sources, and well-substantiated arguments to support my points, I will now conclude this discussion. The responsibility now lies with you to carefully research and analyze the accurate reflection of the Hazara people's true ancestry, without dismissing any of the claims or research I have presented multiple times. Thank you, and take care.Azra7 (talk)20:45, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
.svg)
.svg)
