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I will be recording the audio for this article for the Spoken Wikipedia Community. If anyone else is already working on it, kindly let me know to avoid duplication. A response would be appreciated.Adilalishah16:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a closed discussion of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider amove reviewafter discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was:not moved. There is a clear consensus in opposition to the proposed move, and no reason to expect that further relisting of this discussion would yield any different outcome.BD2412T03:29, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
– An "epic poem" is usually called anepic, as in theEpic of Gilgamesh and theHomeric epics (part of theEpic Cycle). I have never heard anyone call these "epic poems", andngrams unequivocally support this. The three aforementioned epics form the foundation of Western literature and have significantly influenced Western culture, so by historical and academic significance alone, it is the clear primary topic.Epic (disambiguation) lists one other primary-topic contender,epic film, a genre that was specifically derived fromepics in the classical literary sense; no other topic is anywhere near these two in terms of notability. PerWP:NOTDICT, we can disregard the adjective meaning "heroic or grand", and even that was derived from the literary genre as well.Epic is widely understood to mean an ancient long poem, and it isthe first definition you get if you look up the term on any major dictionary (notice how "epic poem" is not a valid dictionary definition).InfiniteNexus (talk)00:20, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, poetry might have been the definite primary in 1925 Wikipedia, but then epic films became a 'thing'. Disamb covers both and more. Plus per Pppery, 'Epic poetry' is better recognized by the topic's full name.Randy Kryn (talk)03:53, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Epic"is already the full name of the topic, andhas been so since 1583. We only added "poetry" to our article's title as a means of natural disambiguation, i.e. as an alternative toEpic (poetry). Per the ngrams I linked, nobody really calls it that in the real world. The emergence of epic films as an offshoot of "epic poems", in my opinion, does not surpass the older and more impactful topic in terms oflong-term significance. Take a look athow often "epic films" are discussed in academic sources.InfiniteNexus (talk)05:51, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In terms of usage in highest quality sources, there is no question that the primary meaning is the poetry. All other usage is derivative and making that clear is of educational value.Srnec (talk)07:32, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This would result in occluding the difference betweenEpic poetry andEpic (genre). In fact, because the genre is broader in scope, that might make more sense to have at a plain title as a catchall for the main uses.Dekimasuよ!08:42, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The broader genre was also spun out of poetry. The article says so itself:The defining characteristics of the genre are mostly derived from its roots in ancient poetry. This is like howBarbie (the doll) led toBarbie (media franchise), which led toList ofBarbie films, which led toBarbie (film), but the original doll is so deeply influential and impactful that it remains the primary topic. Every modern "epic" work seeks to emulate the epics of antiquity; when we say something is "epic", we mean it is comparable to the scope and grandeur of poetic epics.InfiniteNexus (talk)19:30, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is an original usage, but the use of "epic" to refer to prose dates to at least the 1700s and its application to film is also over 100 years old (as noted in your OED link above).War and Peace,Journey to the West,Gone with the Wind,Lawrence of Arabia,Birth of a Nation, etc. have all long been called epics, and that usage does not rely on whether its users are familiar with Homer orBeowulf. We aren't talking about a neologism here.Dekimasuよ!04:47, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following is a closed discussion of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider amove reviewafter discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Epic poetry →Epic (poetry)Epic (poetry) – The subject is called an epic, not an epic poem or epic poetry, and changing the name of this would provide a more unambiguous interpretation: explaining the topic to be called just an epic but that is in an epic from poetry, not another epic.GrafiXal(talk)19:33, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the current wording is awkward and redundant.Epic already means a long poem, as defined by major dictionaries and reference works:[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]. Thus, "poetry" is an unnecessary qualifier and would be equivalent to saying "novel book".Epic poetry also does not appear as a valid entry in most major dictionaries, so its validity is questionable.WP:NATURAL states:However, do not use obscure or made-up names. See alsongrams.InfiniteNexus (talk)18:34, 2 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's still rather uncommon and therefore not recognizable to most readers. "Homericepics". The "Epic of Gilgamesh". Nobody really says the redundant "epic poetry" unless you dig really hard.InfiniteNexus (talk)21:22, 2 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Epic poetry" may be relatively uncommon but "epic poem" is certainly in fairly common use; in addition to the convincing Ngrams shown by Myceteae, we use the term "epic poem" ourselves in the lead sentences of articles such asShahnameh andEpic of Manas. Accordingly, I think the meaning of this title should be straightforward to readers. The existing title is also a straightforward improvement inWP:NATURALness over the parenthetical version.ModernDayTrilobite (talk •contribs)20:25, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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