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Elam cannot under any circumstances be regarded as a neo-fascist party - so more as the Cyprus communist party may be regarded as a leftist fascist party.The party was founded in 2008, and has legally received its credentials, it is a party of 23,165 voters, a member of the Cyprus Parliament and under the Cyprus Constitution a legal political party.
I share your sentiment. But on Wikipedia it is not sentiment which decides, but verifiable sources. The academic literature surrounding ELAM describes it as ultranationalism and places it on the far-right of the political spectrum. It does not describe it however as a neo-fascist party. Therefore, and unless the literature changes and a new consensus is reached, the party should not be described as neo-fascist and no edits should be made to alter basic info on the page towards that end.Tco03displays (talk)19:41, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ELAM praises the Hellenic prime minister Ioannis Metaxas, who was associated with Greek fascism, as shown in its own website article.
Ioannis Metaxas did lead Greece to victory against the Italians in WW2 so thats a very low bar to have. This issue can easily be solved by simply looking at the partys manifesto and judging it by that, anything else is hearsay and old news.ShovelandSpade (talk)17:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stop Adding an Endless List of Positions in the infobox Please
This occasionally happens on this page. Please do not add an endless list of positions in the infobox, especially if there are no verifiable, reliable sources accompanying them. At present, both the stated position and the stated ideology are backed by verifiable, peer-reviewed academic sources.Tco03displays (talk)19:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Straw man arguments such as "far-right" and "ultranationalist"...
Yes and because of this it has been removed, remember that wiki is not exempt from litigation and making false or inflamitory accusations against organisations or people can cause problems.ShovelandSpade (talk)07:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added the template due to the quite obvious pov problem this article has including but not limited to labelling it a fascist organisation when the party has not only denied these allegations but there is nothing in their manifesto that appears to be fascismic, there is also too much empahsis on the allegations of fascism as opossed to the partys involvement in politics, bills introduced, involvement in parliament etc. Until these issues are fixed I believe the template is rightfully there.ShovelandSpade (talk)19:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was founded as the local branch of Golden Dawn (they were even linked on their homepage until 2020, just a few months before the dissolution of XA)
they had no leadership change, nor change in Name nor logo (the only thing which appearently changed in the removal of the Olive wreath which was directly ripped from XA butstill appears at Times). To the point that they deny it: the Spartans, National Party – Greeks & Republika also deny to be fascists this does not necessarily that they aren't, a clear shift has to be prooven by sources who state they they are not fascists anymore
Well for one party policy and peoples personal opinions can change without leadership necessarily stepping down, for two, as ive previously stated above, the best way to judge these cases is by looking at what the parties policies and manifestos are today, as yes, ELAM in fact cut ties with GD in 2020 and since then as it seems at least, the party has shifted more to the hardline conservative as opossed to fascismic line.ShovelandSpade (talk)19:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it happened almost over night though, that's the thing on mainland Greece almost the same happened with new parties succeeding XA without claiming to be fascist
I mean most third party sources refer to the party as far right not really fascist anymore but the issue is when I remove the fascism claim it gets reverted.ShovelandSpade (talk)09:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You cant confirm a negative, I can give third party sources that state theyre far right, but as I said, I did that prior and it was reverted by someone who has a history of disruptive editing by the looks of it.ShovelandSpade (talk)17:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you CAN confirm the negative, there are plenty sources proofing the transformation of Jobbik for example and like i said far-right and fascist are NOT exclusiveBraganza (talk)17:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, put it this way, if youre having a conversation about another political party, since you mention Greece a lot ill assume you have a clue about their parties, take New Democracy, there are sources saying its right wing or liberal right, but nobody outright says "ND is not a fascist party", it sort of goes without saying, not saying something, doesnt then mean that its true as in this case, anyways ive sent you 3 sources for you to look at, get back to me when you can and yes I know fascist and far right are not mutually exclusive.ShovelandSpade (talk)17:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) "apparently for legal reasons" (aka not get banned)
2) the title already...
3) The Greek-Cypriot nationalist ELAM (National Popular Front) party, whichhas links to Greece’sneo-fascist Golden Dawn and has been accused ofracism against Turkish Cypriots, won two seats in the House of Representatives in Nicosia.Braganza (talk)17:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) Thats OR and is not allowed on wikipedia
2) Racism isnt fascism and claims unless proven in court dont stand
"Elam has made sure in recent years to distance itself from Golden Dawn"
"It’s evident that Elam is in the process of becoming a lighter, less aggressive version of Golden Dawn""The party has started working cooperatively in the parliament too, voting recently in support of the government’s budget proposals and providing key support in the vote for a speaker, helping the government avoid a fresh vote if its candidate did not get through."
"But Elam has clearly learned from Golden Dawn’s mistakes and is aiming to become a more mature version of its former sister party"
This whole article is enough to prove my claim, cherry picking old news simply makes my point and this article is very clear in stating that ELAM no longer has ties to GD.ShovelandSpade (talk)17:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) you are literally trying to do this: "looking at what the parties policies and manifestos are today"
2) yeah but it combination with the first part it is
3) "a more more mature version of its former sister party" implies that they are still fascist just trying to hide it, not out of the ordinary for neofascist parties. Parties like NPD never praise Hitler, this doesn't make them less fascist and like i said Spartans are seen as fascist too despite trying to hide it tooBraganza (talk)18:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it does not youre clearly trying to draw lines where they dont exist, if youre going to outright refute evidence and twist words that is your perrogative, that article had ample opportunities to say theyre still fascismic but they have quite literally said the opossite. So long as evidence like this is being denied there is no chance those templates can be removed.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yes look at party manifestos today because who better to get a political parties view than from the political party themselves? I dont see how this is confusing to you, also yes, if someone is denying being a fascist, cut ties with a fascist party and holds no fascismic views, I hate to break it to you but, maybe theyre not fascists?ShovelandSpade (talk)18:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is OR but even if we look at their program we must look at the old program too if there are any differences
and btw back it2012 ELAM denied being fascist, so they were never fascist to begin with? and we shouldn't forget that the ban of XA was foreseeable in 2020 and nothing unexpectedBraganza (talk)18:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Far right and fascist arent the same thing partially because there is no actual definition of far right its a spectrum in a spectrum, assuming you have nothing else to rebute my claim, the fascist gig is being removed.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i can say literally the same based on this
if the best you can do is to hold up some stalemate based on two things: ELAM denying being fascist & the few English-langugage latest news outlets calling them "far-right" without elaborating in which way (neofascism or right-wing populism with some still very well linking them to XA and calling out their motives behind their disassociation rather than a change of heart), you can't just speculate that they might not be fascistBraganza (talk)18:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not speculation its fact, you chose to play with words thats on you not me. Anyways ive moved it from the infobox and added it in the main article about these allegations so I dont see why you should have a problem.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the status quo (pre-2020) should have the last say, not some assumptions based on thing not said in media and ambiguous labelsBraganza (talk)19:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, the accusation is still there just not in the infobox. You can't force a party into being something you want it to be and as such has no place in the infobox of the party. It's hypocritical to do that and in the same infobox have "Metaxism" and as a reference use the party itself. So we listen to the party where we want and don't listen where we don't want?
I am the one who added the references to Metaxism. One may argue over whether ELAM and/or Metaxism are fascist, but there is no denying ELAM's support for Metaxism, especially when the confirming source is ELAM itself.Hu753 (talk)07:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know my point is that people are using double standards when trying to make their case, you can't take ELAMs word for metaxism and then not take their word for it when it gets to fascism, it's hypocritical. I agree metaxism should be there since as you said, the party itself says it.ShovelandSpade (talk)09:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You do know Metaxas was the leader that led Greece to victory against the Italians in WW2 right? He is celebrated not only officially but by most the Greek and Cypriot Greek populations, does that mean were all fascists? Cause thats what youre dumbing this down to. Anyways you continuing to whine is useless, ive kept it in the article just not in the infobox, I dont see what your problem is.ShovelandSpade (talk)14:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im not gonna get boggled down in another fruitless debate, the fascist claim is still in the article just not in the infobox, are you satisfied with that?ShovelandSpade (talk)15:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is that any better, youre basically saying "Theyre not fascists but we still call them that" thats exactly why it shouldnt be in the infobox, this was exactly my orignal point, its disputed, you dont put disputed information on the infobox. Your issue seems to be that you want it in the infobox for some reason.ShovelandSpade (talk)15:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This compromise seems reasonable enough, especially if compared to another relevant controversy over fascist-related labels (FdI), where at least the party leader condemned fascism publicly (despite controversial members still being in the party). In this case ELAM cutting ties with GD isn't sufficient to infer anything about ELAM itself. My only addition to the conversation would be that imho an essential component of fascism (or fascism-derived ideologies) is a tendency to ignore, mock or even try to subvert democratic processes, and labeling as fascist parties that do not show those behaviors should be done with caution.Fm3dici97 (talk)10:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd go with Braganza's proposal. However, the party's denial counts for nothing. That element shouldn't be in the lead or the infobox. Plenty of groups deny claims of extremist ideologies regardless of whether or not they are true. We go by what reliable third-party sources state over organisations self-descriptions.Helper201 (talk)18:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most third party sources no longer state that theyre fascists so. Let me put it another way, can you show me in the parties manifesto where there is the element of fascism? The manifesto is there for everyone to see, and generally with sourcing id agree however calling people fascists when they quite clearly aren't is actually borderline slander no matter how sourced you think it is. As I said, claims can remain in the article not infobox.ShovelandSpade (talk)03:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A practical example of this is Marios Pelekanos' recent move to ELAM from DHSY, has Marios Pelekanos suddenly brcome a fascist even though nobody has even remotely made such a claim? Obviously not.ShovelandSpade (talk)04:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Idk much about ND but even so, that doesnt make ND a fascist party. With ELAM most of the issue stems from Christos Christous university years and when he was the bodyguard of Michailakos, but even so that isnt a representation of his party and he himself has adressed the issue and admitted he made a mistake. ELAM in 2024 is more a Conservative party as opossed to fascismic, this id why DHSY is being weakened, the party has shifted to a more liberal stance whereas ELAM is hardline Conservative.ShovelandSpade (talk)06:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Idk his age so id be lying, but he did have a bit of history with them, most of the others dont but as I said, after cutting ties he admitted it was a mistake and the party even pre 2020 toned it down a lot, as I said, theyre more conservative hardliners now as oppossed to anything else.ShovelandSpade (talk)08:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you wanted to look at the program, i searched for the old one (when it was still linked to XA) and found a nearly identical program
even though the program might not appear fascismic, pre-2020 ELAM clearly was and during this period they used a prototype of the current oneBraganza (talk)13:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And im asking, what in the program is fascismic, if you cant find anything youre just making my point without realising. Ive said this many times.ShovelandSpade (talk)14:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-2020 ELAM was the branch of XA, no doubt in that, even ELAM linked them on their website. Apparently ELAM just kept the program and modified it a bit over the years but this doesn't change the fact that the core program is the same. How radical the program is or not doesn't matter because it is still the same program of their fascist past.Braganza (talk)14:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not how it works, its either fascismic or its not, if you cant find anything in said program to prove your point then I cant help that and it leaves it at a claim.ShovelandSpade (talk)16:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We go by what reliable third-party sources state, not the interpretation or reading of its program or manifesto by editors. Editors aren't supposed to interpret sources but go by what they explicitly state. Its party program is a first-party source. Third-party sources take precedent over it.Helper201 (talk)17:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes except when you're making near slanderous accusations where even third party sourcing doesn't cover you. Fascism is not only frowned upon in some countries it's downright illegal to identify as a fascist or at least sympathize with certain fascist figures, at the point where neither ELAM nor MOST of its supporters sympathise with that ideology, you can't accuse them of such hence why I have left it as a claim.
Why are you still so upset that it isn't in the infobox, it's almost like you want to force an impression on people otherwise you would have no issue seen as it's already addressed in the article.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally as I have stated before, rarely any reputable third party sources call ELAM fascists anymore so even there you dont have much to go on. Best case scenario is that its a former fascist party and even then wouldnt warrant the infobox as that is reserved for current information.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources which still call them tied to Golden Dawn[1], neofascist[2], sources which state that the shift was directly linked to the ban of Golden Dawn[3][4][5][6] (older sources specifically calling them neo-fascist[7][8][9])
The only problem here is that A Socialist Trans Girl falsely complained about not being pinged like A Socialist Trans Girl have ever participated in the article or talk page before. A Socialist Trans Girl is still welcome to join in on the discussion, if in good faith.Hu753 (talk)23:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hu753 nono, I'm just confused because Braganza saidhopefully it works now; those who either had edits made here or were included in the FdI fascism debate which i DID participate in the FdI discussion.A SocialistTrans Girl03:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have checked the Brothers of Italy (FdI) discussions. In all fairness, there are many users such as VosleCap, SMcCandlish and Redrose64 in the discussions who have also missed out. You are not the only one who missed out. You are still welcome to discuss this article in good faith. There are more important things to discuss here than a missed invitation.Hu753 (talk)08:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We need to do a survey of academic sources, I suggest using google scholar, search 'ELAM Cyprus ideology', and tally up the first two pages regarding whether they use the term neofascist or neonazi (whether the allegations have weight) when they discuss their ideology, against those that don't or those that reject the label. Basically, ideally we need academic sources that assess the application of the neo-fascist label to ELAM (and I'd say they can't be older than 5 years?)
Survey of sources: A survey of academic sources on the first two pages of Google Scholar by searching "ELAM Cyprus ideology", and only including sources from 2020 (some I didn't have access to through the wikipedia library), neo-nazism wasn't mentioned:
Sources that use/give credence toneo-fascist labelling:[10], 2023;[11], 2021;[12], 2024;[13], 2024;
Sources that don't useneo-fascist labelling:[14];[15], 2023;
I dont know if this changes anything but if not wrong, ELAM has stated it intends to join the ECR party in the european parliament, which I as far as I know is the European conservative/ nationalist party, not accused of fascism.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Wikipedia allows for historical ideologies to be listed in political party articles. Past ideologies may be included in the infobox as long as they under the historical sub-section of the ideology section.Hu753 (talk)23:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I can't see where the sources provided (of those that I can verify) explicitly call the party neo-fascist is compliance withWP:SYNTH. If there are not any reliable sources that explicitly call the party neo-fascist then it shouldn't be in the article (main text or infobox). If you can provide sources where the party is explicitly called neo-fascist then please provide them and make clear exactly where this is stated in the source. Also, as a side note, I didn't receive a ping/notification, so other pinged editors may also not have received one.Helper201 (talk)20:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support – There are enough sources which proofed that ELAM was fascist not long ago and like i said in the previous discussion, i don't see evidence that an actual shift happened nor do sources exist backing a shift up. In my opinion, as long as there are no sources backing an actual change in ideology, the old sources should stand, otherwise it would violateWP:NOR if we base the change on statements directly or indirectly from ELAM. Additionally even though there is a lack of new sources (2020 and younger) it should be noted that Cyprus is not heavily observed by foreign media and labels such as "far-right" or "rechtsextrem" (KAS/CDU 2024Euractiv 2023FAZ 2021) in German does not contradict fascism for example here sources callingNPD "rechtsextrem" without calling them neo-nazi/neo-fascist:ZDFWeltNDReuronews in English doing the same with "far-right".Braganza (talk)21:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dont support Most of the sources that claim or have claimed are generally as a result of bad press and their former connections to golden dawn in Greece as opposed to the party being actually fascist and as I've stated and shown prior, nobody calls them fascists or neo fascists anymore, most sources if anything, simply claim the party is hardline conservatives and nationalists something which the party itself does not hide nor deny.ShovelandSpade (talk)11:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The status of ELAM being neo-fascist will depend on whether Metaxism is truly a form of fascism. If Metaxism is fascist, then ELAM is neo-fascist. If Metaxism is not fascist, then ELAM is not neo-fascist.Hu753 (talk)11:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From what ive seen of the source, they simply praise Metaxas who did indeed lead Greece to victory against the Italians in the Second World War, 28th of October is a national celebration in both Greece and Cyprus so with this logic, wouldnt that make Greece and Cyprus fascist countries?ShovelandSpade (talk)14:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Homeland religion and family are not fascismic ideas in any way unless you are of the belief the loving your country, following your religion and loving your family are wrong. You seem to confuse conservatism and nationalism with fascism a lot.ShovelandSpade (talk)16:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I've looked over the sources and I can't find a single one of those listed that explictly calls ELAM neo-fascist. Granted I'm using a translation tool to translate the non-English sources but I'm pretty sure this should still be findable. Many of them don't even use the word fascism in the article at all, let alone call ELAM neo-fascist. Note, calling the party far-right or anything else does not equal calling it neo-fascist, that would fall foul ofWP:SYNTH.Helper201 (talk)00:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Helper201: when i added the the sources i added the quotes in question[17] (actually 3 out of the 4 call them neonazi instead of neo-fascist i actually watered it down)
The first source i didn't want to add the quote because the whole passage is talking about it but if you want: "Die Parteiführung wendet sich gegen die Assoziierung der Partei mit verschiedenen gewalttätigen Zwischenfällen, ihre Nachahmungen der aktivistischen Taktik von Golden Dawn ist jedoch ein Beleg für den neonazistischen Charakter der Nationalen Volksfront"Braganza (talk)05:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Braganza of the sources you linked there only one of the quotes in the link directly calls them neo-fascist, which to go off one source would probably beWP:UNDUE. The quote you gave says neo-Nazi, which is not the same as neo-fascist.Helper201 (talk)23:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not only does the article say why it calls ELAM fascist (Making it a baseless accusation), the article is clearly trying to advertise volt (The left wing opossite of ELAM) so its not in any way reliable as its peddling the points of a rival political party.ShovelandSpade (talk)18:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nah thats even more contentious than the fascism and nearly no reputable (Neutral) source makes such a claim, even the bbc makes the ultranationalist not fascist or nazi claim.[17]ShovelandSpade (talk)16:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, neo-fascism should be included. I believe that sources accurately describe it at neo-fascist, if there are any sources saying that it isnot neofascist (not just not saying it's neofascist; I mean saying that it is NOT neofascist), then I would like to see them.
Lenz Jacobsen (30 March 2013)."Zyperns Goldene Morgenröte marschiert".Die Zeit. Retrieved6 October 2023.Die Elam ist die neue radikale Rechte auf der Krisen-Insel: nationalsozialistisch, rassistisch und neo-nazistisch.
^Klaus Hillenbrand (3 September 2023)."Rechte Gewalt auf Zypern: Rechtsradikale greifen Migranten an".Die Tageszeitung. Retrieved6 October 2023.Viele Zyprioten machen die neonazistische Partei Elam (Nationale Volksfront), eine Schwesterorganisation der verbotenen griechischen Partei „Goldene Morgenröte", für die Eskalation der Gewalt verantwortlich.
^Nordsieck, Wolfram (2016)."Cyprus".Parties and Elections in Europe.
^Katsourides, Yiannos (December 2013). "Determinants of extreme right reappearance in Cyprus: The National Popular Front (ELAM), Golden Dawn's sister party".South European Society and Politics.18 (4):567–589.doi:10.1080/13608746.2013.798893.S2CID153418352.
As to the accusations of being neo-nazis and fascists, if you see the controversies section I added, it clearly states with the relevant sourcing "Ideologically, it has been accused of belonging to the neo-fascist, neo-nazi or nationalist-revolutionary currents akin to those among the NPD in Germany, the GUD in France and Golden Dawn in Greece. Though the party has been accused of being aligned to fascist and even Nazi ideologies, it has categorically refused these claims and has cut ties with Golden Dawn since 2020.".There is also an additional sub-section "Previous connections with Golden Dawn"Your accusation that I was trying to minimise "seeming attempt to minimize mention of neo-nazi leanings" is not only wrong I would like an apology due to not assuming good faith, note, you didnt even ask in here or my personal talk page why I made those edits. As to the accusations themselves, they not only have been added but as they were prior, the article was 90% claiming ELAM were nazis and repeating it over and over again in different sections, its undue weight and its pointless, the point has already been made and has a section dedicated to it.
As to the violence involving ELAM, there is no source that remotely indicates the party was involved in that violence on an official scale akin to golden dawn in Greee whose leaders were not only arrested and put in prison, the party was also outlawed as a result, among others, the death of Pavlos Fissas, none of this has been the case with ELAM and as such should not be included in the article. Additionally and less importantly, some of the sources arent reporting actual news theyre opinion pieces such as the Politis one, the other Politis reference doesnt even work.
As to the walking out of the migrant disaster event in the parliament, the source claims that AKEL (The Cypriot communist party) claimed that, it did not state it as a fact, "Hitting back later, Elam explained that their MPs did not walk out during the minute’s silence. It said the party’s MPs happened to be outside the main room at the time. “The death of any person, and of children no less, cannot but cause shock and untold sorrow,” Elam said in a statement. “The Elam deputies happened to be outside the room, on other business, during the minute’s silence, but not deliberately. This has occurred several times in the past, when MPs from all parties happen to be absent, but it was never turned into a major political matter.”"- Directly from the article.
