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PreviousTalk:Ben Wattenberg

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Requested move 23 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider amove review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not done - elapsed, no consensusDrStrausstalk13:55, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

Ben J. Wattenberg →Ben Wattenberg –WP:COMMONNAME; he was more popularly known without the "J," such as the title of his PBS TV show[1].Arbor to SJ (talk)05:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. In the case of authors, a key consideration is their pen name. Ben Wattenberg signed his books "Ben J. Wattenberg" and themiddle initial appears on the covers of all his books. —Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs)22:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • So do many other media figures like these radio hosts.Mark Levin signs his books as "Mark R. Levin".Charlie Sykes books are signed "Charles J. Sykes". SenatorTed Kennedy wrote books as "Edward M. Kennedy".Arbor to SJ (talk)07:35, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Each case presents its own argument. Johnny Apple has always been referenced asR. W. Apple Jr.. Such matters, particularly relating toWP:COMMONNAME, may well be raised atWikipedia talk:Article titles and associated talk pages. —Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs)14:45, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. Does seem at least as often used without the initial as with it, and in general we prefer not to include middle initials unless reliable sources tell us the common name is such, perWP:CONCISE andWP:NCP.  — Amakuru (talk)13:45, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in amove review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 4 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider amove review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was:Move. We have consensus thatBen Wattenberg is theWP:COMMONNAME.Cúchullain^t/c15:04, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ben J. Wattenberg →Ben Wattenberg – Previous attempt failed, so trying again with stronger arguments.

This article should only be titled "Ben Wattenberg" because:

• WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: Wattenberg hosted aPBS talk show for nearly 15 years titledThink Tank with Ben Wattenberg, without the middle initial.
• WP:COMMONNAME:
  • There are nearly 29,000 google search results for "Ben Wattenberg" - but only around 14k for "Ben J. Wattenberg".
  • In media appearances, he was usually addressed as just "Ben Wattenberg" - like in this 2008Daily Show interview[2]. Also, mostC-SPAN videos omit the initial[3].
  • Upon his passing, obituaries introduced him without the middle initial, such asThe New York Times[4],Real Clear Politics[5], andAmerican University'sCurrent trade paper for public media[6]. However,The Washington Post obituary had the middle initial in the headline[7].Arbor to SJ (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2017 (UTC)--Relisting.TonyBallioni (talk)01:44, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Subject's own chosenWP:COMMONNAME form should be taken into account, with thepen name serving as a key consideration. The examples presented in the previous discussion (Mark Levin /Mark R. Levin,Charlie Sykes /Charles J. Sykes orTed Kennedy /Edward M. Kennedy) are also ripe for this type of discussion should anyone wish to submit a nomination. There are a number of such names: New York mayorFiorello La Guardia always wrote and signed asFiorello H. La Guardia and there is theFiorello H. LaGuardia High School. Wikipedia articles list some presidents by their signature names (Lyndon B. Johnson) while others are not listed in such a manner (Richard Nixon, notRichard M. Nixon;Gerald Ford, notGerald R. Ford orDonald Trump, notDonald J. Trump). Others, such asJimmy Carter orBill Clinton were known solely by those respective forms which were both their signatures andpen names. —Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs)06:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, Wattenberg has written articles as "Ben Wattenberg" forThe Washington Times, like in2001 and2009. My google search of the washingtontimes.com website finds over 30 results for "Ben Wattenberg" but only four including the middle initial.Arbor to SJ (talk)04:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The un-bylined form ofThe Washington Times online presentation of Wattenberg'sThink Tank on-air thought pieces or, perhaps, his printed views, suggests that Wattenberg did not write these pieces directly forThe Washington Times as columns, but rather had them syndicated in some form which did not require the use of a byline. The bottom-of-text identification and micro-description of the author is commonplace for writers of un-bylined pieces or for authors whose writings do not regularly appear within the publication in question. —Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs)18:11, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Apologies to Roman, but according to our guidelines your oppose argument is not valid, and the previous move should have gone through. In a BLP situation,WP:COMMONNAME still applies, and in particularMOS:IDENTITY clarifies that we do not give any extra value to the name used by the person themselves,unless'"it isn't clear which is most used". In this case, it is clear from the evidence above that the version without the initial is indeed much more used, so the above clause doesn't apply, and we ignore the person's own preference.  — Amakuru (talk)11:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Without a doubt, your arguments put this matter into proper perspective, but other considerations should also be taken into account. Wikipedia has hundreds of thousands of biographical entries which have a middle initial in their main title header. Some article creators are, in fact, so concerned with adding the middle initial in the header that they neglect to also create non-initial redirects to their creations. I have been forming such missing redirects for years, with another one (Martin Brooks →Martin E. Brooks) added yesterday.

However, other than specialized cases, such as stage names (Edward G. Robinson orLeo G. Carroll), with these actors virtually unrecognizable without their middle initials, individuals are not generally referenced by their names with the middle initials, but rather without such initials. In numerous cases, such asJohn Stuart Mill, rather than the equally unrecognizableJohn S. Mill, they are known entirely by their full triple name or simply by their surname, such asThoreau. There are always exceptions — I have heard fairly frequent references to "George H. W." and "George W." to differentiate the father-son presidents.

In the case at hand, if we were to apply theWP:COMMONNAME standard to all those with middle initials, very few, if any, would be able to keep their initials. A few days ago, I examined the entry forThe New York Times longtime military specialistHanson Baldwin, whose byline had always beenHanson W. Baldwin, as indicated in the main header of his Wikipedia entry. Upon his death, however,The Times obituary headline read, "Hanson Baldwin, Military Writer, Dies" and only in the lead paragraph called him "Hanson W."
With authors, it may be argued that (with some pseudonymous or otherwise specialized exceptions) their pen name is also their common name as depicted by theBen J. Wattenberg Amazon page or theBen J. Wattenberg google search. —Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs)18:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: do not include the initial if there is no need to do so. –Sb2001^{talk page}14:29, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of arequested move.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in amove review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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